BoxRec

ikorolev wrote:

Badhusker wrote:If only GGG had as much confidence in himself as you do. If he did, he would have fought Ward at 168. He may have missed his chance at an atg. Atg's like Manny and Floyd, for example moved up to seek out competition, and ended up fighting near their walking around weight. That is a risk. Atg's historically took risks. GGG has a ways to go.

Bullsh!t. Quite a few of ATGs never moved up or did so at the very end of their careers.

I don't think that i've ever heard anyone criticizing Marvin Hagler for sticking at MW for his whole career, have you? He never went down to 155 to fight the best WW's. He made Hearns, SRR and Duran come on up to him if they wanted him. And before the WW's came on up to him, his resume was less than what GGG's looks like right now.

Plus, Middleweight is the toughest weight class to move up or down from IMO. If a MW moves up to SM, his opposition is going to be close to 190 pounds come fight night. SM's walk around at 200 pounds a lot of them and that's a huge difference. Then if a MW wants to go down to 154 for the first time after fighting over 160 his whole career, they are going to be sucked out and losing any advantage they had with their stamina.

I think moving up or down has absolutely no place in the discussion with measuring how great a boxer is or was.

There was talk of it in haglers day. No internet, so magazines as opposed to nerds with furious keyboards.

And hagler had a superior resume long before he even fought for the title. He was ducked for years.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And hagler had a superior resume long before he even fought for the title. He was ducked for years.

Long before he had that title he lost to Boogaloo Watts (27-3-1) and Willie Monroe (31-3-1). Hagler is without a doubt an ATG but don't act like you KSAB.

Pulpfriction wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And hagler had a superior resume long before he even fought for the title. He was ducked for years.

Long before he had that title he lost to Boogaloo Watts (27-3-1) and Willie Monroe (31-3-1). Hagler is without a doubt an ATG but don't act like you KSAB.

They were excellent fighters that he beat in rematches.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Pulpfriction wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And hagler had a superior resume long before he even fought for the title. He was ducked for years.

Long before he had that title he lost to Boogaloo Watts (27-3-1) and Willie Monroe (31-3-1). Hagler is without a doubt an ATG but don't act like you KSAB.

They were excellent fighters that he beat in rematches.

And grass was greener then too.

ikorolev wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Pulpfriction wrote:
Long before he had that title he lost to Boogaloo Watts (27-3-1) and Willie Monroe (31-3-1). Hagler is without a doubt an ATG but don't act like you KSAB.

They were excellent fighters that he beat in rematches.

And grass was greener then too.

No, just better boxing. Ggg would have fit in fine with all of them. Doesn't change the fact that hagler had a list of guys better than any of his opponents before he fought for the strap.

It's not Golovkin's fault that Martinez, Sturm, Cotto and now Canelo didn't/don't want to risk their good status/position against him. Dude is a very skilled savage puncher who is a master at setting his power shots.

His resume it's the best resume at 160 lbs atm compared with any current active top 10 middlweight, with T/KO wins over Proksa, Rubio, Stevens, Geale, Murray and Lemieux. Time will tell if Saunders, Jacobs and Canelo really want to fight GGG.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ikorolev wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: They were excellent fighters that he beat in rematches.

And grass was greener then too.

No, just better boxing. Ggg would have fit in fine with all of them. Doesn't change the fact that hagler had a list of guys better than any of his opponents before he fought for the strap.

Except he lost to those better opponents.

ikorolev wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

ikorolev wrote:
And grass was greener then too.

No, just better boxing. Ggg would have fit in fine with all of them. Doesn't change the fact that hagler had a list of guys better than any of his opponents before he fought for the strap.

Except he lost to those better opponents.

So? Are you a marciano, Floyd, calzaghe is the goat guy? The Watts decision was dubious, he avenged both losses, plus the sealed draw, briscoe, Hart, colbert, etc... It's cool if you don't care about the sports history, just odd to argue about it when you don't know what you're talking about. Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

... and the grass was greener !

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

What does that mean? Philly had better middleweights when GGG wasn't around? How is Philadelphia affected by GGG?

thomasjkelley wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

What does that mean? Philly had better middleweights when GGG wasn't around? How is Philadelphia affected by GGG?

My bad. Look's like you had a typo or spell check change that confused me.

thomasjkelley wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

What does that mean? Philly had better middleweights when GGG wasn't around? How is Philadelphia affected by GGG?

Somebody said golovkins resume is better than haglers was before Duran, hearns & Leonard fought him. You couldn't follow the posts? Lol

thomasjkelley wrote:

thomasjkelley wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

What does that mean? Philly had better middleweights when GGG wasn't around? How is Philadelphia affected by GGG?

My bad. Look's like you had a typo or spell check change that confused me.

All good.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

thomasjkelley wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Philly alone had better middleweights sans ggg.

What does that mean? Philly had better middleweights when GGG wasn't around? How is Philadelphia affected by GGG?

Somebody said golovkins resume is better than haglers was before Duran, hearns & Leonard fought him. You couldn't follow the posts? Lol

No, I couldn't read your mind instantaneously. I speak English. You said "sans" GGG. Do you know what that means? It means "without". I had to mull that over, look at my keyboard for a typo you might have made before it dawned on me that you were using a word that you did not understand the definition of. Don't laugh out loud at me amigo!

caldo2025 wrote:We all know how the GGG bashers feel about him but I was wondering how reasonable people would feel about GGG If he remained at Middleweight for the rest of his career and retired undefeated. He never takes part in a super fight or a catchweight negotiation. He breaks every middleweight record and retires undefeated with a 50-0 record with 45 knockouts. What will be his place in boxing history?

THAT is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!! ... After GGG knocks out Canelo, Saunders, and Jacobs he'll have 2 more Middleweight Title Defenses to get the record of 21 consecutive without fighting Lightweigthts and Welterweights... Then he'll go North to 168 and 175... Ultimately he wants to KO Ward and Kovalev.

If GGG stayed at Middleweight he would still be recognized as the best Middleweight EVER in 20 years... Monzon and Hagler stayed at 160 forever... DIDN'T have the KO ratio or number of Middleweight Title Defenses Golovkin ALREADY owns... and They're ATG Middleweights and the top Middleweight would FIGHT them.. Rodrigo Valdez wasn't scared of Monzon.. The top Middleweights are scared to death of GGG... He'll never get comfortable and lazy like Hagler - who fought only ONE (1) Title Defense a YEAR in 1985.. 1986.. and 1987... Hagler retired at 32 after a Welterweight beat him.. Golovkin is 34 already and may go for another 6 years because his skills are so outstanding.

Kalan wrote:

caldo2025 wrote:We all know how the GGG bashers feel about him but I was wondering how reasonable people would feel about GGG If he remained at Middleweight for the rest of his career and retired undefeated. He never takes part in a super fight or a catchweight negotiation. He breaks every middleweight record and retires undefeated with a 50-0 record with 45 knockouts. What will be his place in boxing history?

THAT is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!! ... After GGG knocks out Canelo, Saunders, and Jacobs he'll have 2 more Middleweight Title Defenses to get the record of 21 consecutive without fighting Lightweigthts and Welterweights... Then he'll go North to 168 and 175... Ultimately he wants to KO Ward and Kovalev.

If GGG stayed at Middleweight he would still be recognized as the best Middleweight EVER in 20 years... Monzon and Hagler stayed at 160 forever... DIDN'T have the KO ratio or number of Middleweight Title Defenses Golovkin ALREADY owns... and They're ATG Middleweights and the top Middleweight would FIGHT them.. Rodrigo Valdez wasn't scared of Monzon.. The top Middleweights are scared to death of GGG... He'll never get comfortable and lazy like Hagler - who fought only ONE (1) Title Defense a YEAR in 1985.. 1986.. and 1987... Hagler retired at 32 after a Welterweight beat him.. Golovkin is 34 already and may go for another 6 years because his skills are so outstanding.

I disagree with you here. GGG's goal all along was to acquire all of the belts at Middleweight and keep them and defend them. He's not in it for the big fights or the money. This is why he's completely fine with them just stripping Canelo of the titles if he doesn't accept the fight at 160. He doesn't care, just wants the belts.

Martinez ducked him.
Cotto ducked him.

I think canelo will step up to the plate.

Other than that, Golovkin is unfortunate to be in a crappy era. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have greats like Foreman & Frazier as rivals, or Morales, Barrera & Marquez, etc.

Truthfully speaking though, judging on talent, Golovkin might just be the best fighter i've ever seen.

Golovkin is an amazing looking talent, but he simply hasn't had top competition and thus I think there's an almost dangerous level of hype around him. Beating the hell out of these guys he's fought isn't bad, but I just can't get behind the idea that he's among the best fighters of my lifetime when he hasn't beaten a single elite guy.

caldo2025 wrote:We all know how the GGG bashers feel about him but I was wondering how reasonable people would feel about GGG If he remained at Middleweight for the rest of his career and retired undefeated. He never takes part in a super fight or a catchweight negotiation. He breaks every middleweight record and retires undefeated with a 50-0 record with 45 knockouts. What will be his place in boxing history?

Golovkin will pass Hopkins in title defenses soon, and become the lineal champion if Alvarez meets him in the ring. This will give him the WBC, IBF, and WBA belts. My eyes tell me he's among the best ten middleweights ever to lace 'em up. Golovkin's power and durability are outstanding. Skill wise he's murder to the body or head and equipped with a forceful jab, and dangerous uppercut. He has countering skills as well, which might be shown if tested.

While he hasn't fought elite level competition yet, he has blown away a collection of top 10 opponents without any struggle. This separates him from all past great middleweights who at times had their hands full from Golovkin like opponents, and I'll include Monzon and Hagler in that conversation.

Golovkin's problem is very few hall of fame level welterweights or jr middleweights are moving up to meet him. Mayweather, Cotto, and others know they would get annihilated. Hagler and Monzon had no such problems and often beat very famous and smaller men. Top level fighters at 160 pounds such as Billy Saunders will likely not risk his WBO middleweight belt vs GGG.

Golovkin's final legacy might rest on moving up to 168 pounds, winning a belt there, then going for the opportunity to become a triple weight champion at 175 pounds. Historically speaking that would put him in some elite company. He also has a good chance to retire undefeated.

GGG has fought guys that even us diehards aren't even familiar with, so that's no help in and of itself. I can't help but think he could go on a "Bum of the Month" run and clear even more trees from the forest. Fighting three times a year against scrubbies and unknowns isn't helping.

That being said, he never turns out anything but a perfectly controlled and technical performance each and every time. Never a bad night, and you'd figure there'd be one in the mix somewhere. But there isn't.

In the end, I suspect we'll end up disappointed because he'll never get a chance to be truly tested and we'll feel cheated of "what could have been" and we won't be able to truly assess him.

caldo2025 wrote:

ikorolev wrote:

Badhusker wrote:If only GGG had as much confidence in himself as you do. If he did, he would have fought Ward at 168. He may have missed his chance at an atg. Atg's like Manny and Floyd, for example moved up to seek out competition, and ended up fighting near their walking around weight. That is a risk. Atg's historically took risks. GGG has a ways to go.

Bullsh!t. Quite a few of ATGs never moved up or did so at the very end of their careers.

I don't think that i've ever heard anyone criticizing Marvin Hagler for sticking at MW for his whole career, have you? He never went down to 155 to fight the best WW's. He made Hearns, SRR and Duran come on up to him if they wanted him. And before the WW's came on up to him, his resume was less than what GGG's looks like right now.

Plus, Middleweight is the toughest weight class to move up or down from IMO. If a MW moves up to SM, his opposition is going to be close to 190 pounds come fight night. SM's walk around at 200 pounds a lot of them and that's a huge difference. Then if a MW wants to go down to 154 for the first time after fighting over 160 his whole career, they are going to be sucked out and losing any advantage they had with their stamina.

I think moving up or down has absolutely no place in the discussion with measuring how great a boxer is or was.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post and it's conclusion.

Golovkin is an ATG.

Is this a weak era for middleweights or is 3G making it look weak. I favour the latter to some extent. Without 3G we'd say the division was stacked as every name in the top 10 could face off and give each other problems.

But with 3G those thoughts go out the window.

The fact we're comparing Golovkin to Marvellous Marvin means we already think of him as belonging in that category. Which (let me remind you) is ATG.

G.McClellan wrote:Golovkin is an ATG.

Is this a weak era for middleweights or is 3G making it look weak. I favour the latter to some extent. Without 3G we'd say the division was stacked as every name in the top 10 could face off and give each other problems.

But with 3G those thoughts go out the window.

The fact we're comparing Golovkin to Marvellous Marvin means we already think of him as belonging in that category. Which (let me remind you) is ATG.

I agree. Why most of the people on this site have some a hard time with applying ATG to what GGG is doing is beyond me. If it all ended today for GGG, you would have to already classify him as one of the best Middleweights in the history of boxing. No middleweight has done this....ever. Why the hesitation? It would be one thing if he were doing a Floyd and looking for the easiest way out of each situation and never fighting the best or number one contender. He's begging for the best middleweight around to try to take his title and test him.

How jumping up from Middleweight to Super Middleweight or Light Heavy has any bearing on a greatness discussion is ludicrous and i'm done having those stupid arguments. GGG is one of the greatest boxers in the history of Boxing. Plane and simple.