BoxRec

Check out that shadowboxing at 1:17

crusader wrote:Check out that shadowboxing at 1:17

If he was doing the same in the ring, he wouldn't last one round against GGG.

Butterbean wrote:why is the better training and nutrition and stuff hilarious ?

If all of that is better, why can't canelo maintain a heavyweight pace from even 20 years ago. Those old timers were just tougher people. Boxing is boxing, people as a whole are more athletic now, nowhere near as skilled or tough. Nothing is better training than fighting the best. It's a rareity now, commonplace then.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Butterbean wrote:why is the better training and nutrition and stuff hilarious ?

If all of that is better, why can't canelo maintain a heavyweight pace from even 20 years ago. Those old timers were just tougher people. Boxing is boxing, people as a whole are more athletic now, nowhere near as skilled or tough. Nothing is better training than fighting the best. It's a rareity now, commonplace then.

Canelo is killing himself to make weight. Besides, his trainers may be not the best and he may be a little lazy himself.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Butterbean wrote:why is the better training and nutrition and stuff hilarious ?

If all of that is better, why can't canelo maintain a heavyweight pace from even 20 years ago. Those old timers were just tougher people. Boxing is boxing, people as a whole are more athletic now, nowhere near as skilled or tough. Nothing is better training than fighting the best. It's a rareity now, commonplace then.

i agree on the general tougher then, but boxers or athletes as a whole, nahhh. and why is it they would be more skilled then than now ?
fighting the best of course makes you better, but in boxing, fighting the best can really mess you up, long term if not for good, and i think the elite today, top 100 in each division, represents a better average fighter than back in the day. and i think that the top dogs of today, apart from hw division, would make a mockery with top fighters from just 40 years ago.

old footage also have a tendency to make things look like they move faster than they really do.
but we really wont ever know or have proof.

Old footage makes them look slower, but no need to go back that far. The fighters of the 70's , 80's & 90's were vastly superior. Of course there are exceptions, but many champions wouldn't be top 10-15 then.

Ggg is my favorite fighter and I think he'd be elite in any era. To say he has the greatest middleweight resume ever is laughable. Detractors pick apart his resume to the extreme, but he hasn't faced an all time top 200 middle.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Old footage makes them look slower, but no need to go back that far. The fighters of the 70's , 80's & 90's were vastly superior. Of course there are exceptions, but many champions wouldn't be top 10-15 then.

I saw a fight scar tissue recommended, on the scorecards botp thread, some black American southpaw cut Alan minter to shreds, fast, skilled, dude never came close to even challenging I don't think, and to look at him id happily guarantee he'd hand sturm or Macklin or whoever their asses. Cant remember the fellas name though but i checked his record and he went nowhere, but he pretty much had his way with minter, who would also hand Macklin et al their ass.

Counter-puncher wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Old footage makes them look slower, but no need to go back that far. The fighters of the 70's , 80's & 90's were vastly superior. Of course there are exceptions, but many champions wouldn't be top 10-15 then.

I saw a fight scar tissue recommended, on the scorecards botp thread, some black American southpaw cut Alan minter to shreds, fast, skilled, dude never came close to even challenging I don't think, and to look at him id happily guarantee he'd hand sturm or Macklin or whoever their asses. Cant remember the fellas name though but i checked his record and he went nowhere, but he pretty much had his way with minter, who would also hand Macklin et al their ass.

You must mean Ronnie Harris in reference to the Southpaw that kicked Alan's ass.

I haven't seen a ton of guys from that era, but I know there were a lot of tremendous all time talents around in the 70's and 80's. I've seen the biggest stars in action, but I'd like to familiarize myself with the era more.

Hamsho is crazy underrated, he beat minter too. No point on cs to bother. We have some kid pretending to be 80 years old that thinks current fighters are better.

gilgamesh wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Old footage makes them look slower, but no need to go back that far. The fighters of the 70's , 80's & 90's were vastly superior. Of course there are exceptions, but many champions wouldn't be top 10-15 then.

I saw a fight scar tissue recommended, on the scorecards botp thread, some black American southpaw cut Alan minter to shreds, fast, skilled, dude never came close to even challenging I don't think, and to look at him id happily guarantee he'd hand sturm or Macklin or whoever their asses. Cant remember the fellas name though but i checked his record and he went nowhere, but he pretty much had his way with minter, who would also hand Macklin et al their ass.

You must mean Ronnie Harris in reference to the Southpaw that kicked Alan's ass.

I haven't seen a ton of guys from that era, but I know there were a lot of tremendous all time talents around in the 70's and 80's. I've seen the biggest stars in action, but I'd like to familiarize myself with the era more.

I know I say it all the time but watch Jesse Burnett. Almost a .500 record and he'd give kovalev or ward more trouble than Stevenson.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:


I saw a fight scar tissue recommended, on the scorecards botp thread, some black American southpaw cut Alan minter to shreds, fast, skilled, dude never came close to even challenging I don't think, and to look at him id happily guarantee he'd hand sturm or Macklin or whoever their asses. Cant remember the fellas name though but i checked his record and he went nowhere, but he pretty much had his way with minter, who would also hand Macklin et al their ass.

You must mean Ronnie Harris in reference to the Southpaw that kicked Alan's ass.

I haven't seen a ton of guys from that era, but I know there were a lot of tremendous all time talents around in the 70's and 80's. I've seen the biggest stars in action, but I'd like to familiarize myself with the era more.

I know I say it all the time but watch Jesse Burnett. Almost a .500 record and he'd give kovalev or ward more trouble than Stevenson.

I've got a list of 70's and 80's era fighters to brush up on and his name is on the list

PM me the list if you'd like and I'll add to it. Ray Mancini would be a legend if he was fighting now.

[quote="SaadOffTheDeck] Toney might not be a top 40 middle. Definitely not top 20. And while scanning I saw someone mention better training now. That's hilarious.[/quote]

Toney was undefeated as a Middleweight. He beat Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and Reggie Johnson. He had the greatest chin of any Middleweight in History - possibly better than Golovkin's chin. Toney fought and beat Vassiliy Jirov, for the Cruiserweight Title, dominating him on the scorecards and nearly knocking him out in the 12th. He was at least 30 pounds over his best weight for that fight. Toney easily beat Dominic Guinn, Evander Holyfield and some other decent Heavyweights. One of the reasons I rank Mickey Walker so high is he fought well against top Heavyweights and was so damned tough. Toney was nothing if not super tough. As a Middleweight he could really hit. Iran Barkley hit Tommy Hearns and knocked him STIFF!! Barkley hit Toney with a couple of perfect shots and made him scowl like a murderous thug and come back at him. The reason I don't have Toney ranked higher is because he was so lazy, with such poor work and eating habits. But as a natural talent he was tops.

gilgamesh wrote: GGG may well wind up being one of the divisions best, and I think he's an amazing talent, but to have him as the #1 Middleweight of all time right now is just absurd.

GGG has been chasing the Lineal Middleweight Title for SIX (6) years - ever since he bombed out Milton Nunez, 21-1, in 1 round for the WBA interim World Middleweight Title. He's been the Mandatory Challenger for Martinez, Cotto, and Canelo, but somehow they kept getting "exceptions" to fight weaker opponents. He now owns 3 World Middleweight Titles but they keep making new ones to avoid him. Like Haymon invented a "vacant" Middleweight Championship for Daniel Jacobs and all DJ needed to do was beat pathetic Jarrod Fletcher. But Golovkin is 16-0 with 16 KO's in World Middleweight Title Defenses and NOBODY in Fistic History can match that. GGG fought the BEST Middleweights in the world who've risked getting into a ring with him and this isn't unprecedented.. For instance, Gustov Scholz went unbeaten for his first 68 fights in the 1950's but couldn't get a World Middleweight Title shot because Jim Norris had iron-fisted control of Boxing. Norris died young thankfully - but Lazlo Papp was never beaten and couldn't get a Middleweight Title shot either.. Al Haymon is threatening to become another Jim Norris.

Kalan wrote:[quote="SaadOffTheDeck] Toney might not be a top 40 middle. Definitely not top 20. And while scanning I saw someone mention better training now. That's hilarious.

Toney was undefeated as a Middleweight. He beat Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and Reggie Johnson. He had the greatest chin of any Middleweight in History - possibly better than Golovkin's chin. Toney fought and beat Vassiliy Jirov, for the Cruiserweight Title, dominating him on the scorecards and nearly knocking him out in the 12th. He was at least 30 pounds over his best weight for that fight. Toney easily beat Dominic Guinn, Evander Holyfield and some other decent Heavyweights. One of the reasons I rank Mickey Walker so high is he fought well against top Heavyweights and was so damned tough. Toney was nothing if not super tough. As a Middleweight he could really hit. Iran Barkley hit Tommy Hearns and knocked him STIFF!! Barkley hit Toney with a couple of perfect shots and made him scowl like a murderous thug and come back at him. The reason I don't have Toney ranked higher is because he was so lazy, with such poor work and eating habits. But as a natural talent he was tops.[/quote][/quote]
Toney got his ass kicked by Dave tiberi. Cruiserweight? What does that have to do with middleweight? Go have your mom pack your lunch.

And FYI, Barkley/toney was at super middle and hearns/hill was 12 RDS. If you want to pretend you're not a pimple popping teeny by using the data base...take notes. Your whole novel of toney encompasses a great career, most of which was not at middleweight.

gilgamesh wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Old footage makes them look slower, but no need to go back that far. The fighters of the 70's , 80's & 90's were vastly superior. Of course there are exceptions, but many champions wouldn't be top 10-15 then.

I saw a fight scar tissue recommended, on the scorecards botp thread, some black American southpaw cut Alan minter to shreds, fast, skilled, dude never came close to even challenging I don't think, and to look at him id happily guarantee he'd hand sturm or Macklin or whoever their asses. Cant remember the fellas name though but i checked his record and he went nowhere, but he pretty much had his way with minter, who would also hand Macklin et al their ass.

You must mean Ronnie Harris in reference to the Southpaw that kicked Alan's ass.

I haven't seen a ton of guys from that era, but I know there were a lot of tremendous all time talents around in the 70's and 80's. I've seen the biggest stars in action, but I'd like to familiarize myself with the era more.

Ronnie Harris, thats the dude. He reminded me of Reggie Johnson, fast skillful southpaw, I think he'd stand pretty much every middleweight champ I have seen in the last 5 years on their head, Jermaine Taylor and pavlik, any of the euro guys... Looked to me like he'd give Martinez a decent go at least and he'd certainly do better against GGG than Willie Monroe.

Butterbean wrote: and why is it they would be more skilled then than now ?
.

They fought more often
They spent longer in the gym and less time between 'camps'
There were more fighters, thus a deeper overall talent pool, thus a higher aggregate skill level.
The amateur programmes were better, more popular, and gave a better grounding for the pros.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:PM me the list if you'd like and I'll add to it. Ray Mancini would be a legend if he was fighting now.

Really?

I always pegged him as being around hattons level in skill and ability, albeit the earlier younger Mancini, before he became his own stereotype short armed brawler, had better footwork and head movement and variety than Hatton showed at world level.

Still would you peg him as being *that* much better than Hatton, or about that level?

Counter-puncher wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:PM me the list if you'd like and I'll add to it. Ray Mancini would be a legend if he was fighting now.

Really?

I always pegged him as being around hattons level in skill and ability, albeit the earlier younger Mancini, before he became his own stereotype short armed brawler, had better footwork and head movement and variety than Hatton showed at world level.

Still would you peg him as being *that* much better than Hatton, or about that level?

He was better than Hatton by a good bit. Gave Arguello a war, completely dominated Ramirez. Oddly, I never cheered for him. Part of my statement is the weak nature of 130-140 these days. Crawford/Mancini would have been a superfight.

Fair enough, he showed more skill in the arguello fight alone than Hatton ever did at world level. Maybe my memory is dominated by him looking pretty awful against Livingstone and trudging round the ring after Camacho for half the fight. But going life and death with Kim and eating half the shots that Peruvian kid threw at him, doesn't make me peg him levels higher than Hatton, not that Hatton is any kind of deity to me.

Counter-puncher wrote:Fair enough, he showed more skill in the arguello fight alone than Hatton ever did at world level. Maybe my memory is dominated by him looking pretty awful against Livingstone and trudging round the ring after Camacho for half the fight. But going life and death with Kim and eating half the shots that Peruvian kid threw at him, doesn't make me peg him levels higher than Hatton, not that Hatton is any kind of deity to me.

I prefer Hatton. Bramble was really talented and that rematch could have went either way. Kim was a beast. Camacho was out of a long retirement if I remember correctly.

Kim certainly looked a beast, to be fair. I recall the commentators surprise that he seemed just as physically strong as Mancini, which was saying something.

The argument of past greats and current great is no win argument. Era's cannot compared fairly because there's not facts of how the past would compete currently under the current rules or vise versa.