BoxRec

Dixonian wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Dixonian wrote:
I think people forget how Ali landed at will whenever he let his hands go. The great man was in complete control at all times imo.

I know what you mean. However, Ali himself admitted a couple of years ago, that the reason he adopted the tactics he did, was he realised that Foreman was actually pretty good at cutting the ring off, and he wouldn't be able to dance around him.

I don't think many fighters could have taken the punishment to the body Ali did that night, and had Foreman fought a little less foolishly and not punched himself out, it could have been a different fight - however, Ali may well have just found another way to win.

Yeah I don't know how he took those body punches to be fair. Could have felled an oak.

Damaged both of Ali's kidneys badly, Ferdie Pacheco counselled Ali to retire after the fight after seeing the damage he took.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Dixonian wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I know what you mean. However, Ali himself admitted a couple of years ago, that the reason he adopted the tactics he did, was he realised that Foreman was actually pretty good at cutting the ring off, and he wouldn't be able to dance around him.

I don't think many fighters could have taken the punishment to the body Ali did that night, and had Foreman fought a little less foolishly and not punched himself out, it could have been a different fight - however, Ali may well have just found another way to win.

Yeah I don't know how he took those body punches to be fair. Could have felled an oak.

Damaged both of Ali's kidneys badly, Ferdie Pacheco counselled Ali to retire after the fight after seeing the damage he took.

Didn't know that. Shame Ferdie never got listened to...

magwitch wrote:Just for fun....prime for primes against some of these (generally bigger) guys?

Frazier
Norton
Ali
Shavers
Foreman
Chuvalo
Bugner

Some big men there with good chins. Let’s say a prime Larry Holmes too (altho I believe they actually fought. Perhaps Holmes’s prime was 80s not 70s but in any case, make the prime match-up)
Then there’s guys I’ve heard of but know very little about. Don Curry (I believe he was p4p number 1 at one point, but that’s all, but I might be mixed up).

Tell me what prime for prime heavies do against Iron Mike

These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

thechump wrote:

magwitch wrote:Just for fun....prime for primes against some of these (generally bigger) guys?

Frazier
Norton
Ali
Shavers
Foreman
Chuvalo
Bugner

Some big men there with good chins. Let’s say a prime Larry Holmes too (altho I believe they actually fought. Perhaps Holmes’s prime was 80s not 70s but in any case, make the prime match-up)
Then there’s guys I’ve heard of but know very little about. Don Curry (I believe he was p4p number 1 at one point, but that’s all, but I might be mixed up).

Tell me what prime for prime heavies do against Iron Mike

These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

thechump wrote:

magwitch wrote:Just for fun....prime for primes against some of these (generally bigger) guys?

Frazier
Norton
Ali
Shavers
Foreman
Chuvalo
Bugner

Some big men there with good chins. Let’s say a prime Larry Holmes too (altho I believe they actually fought. Perhaps Holmes’s prime was 80s not 70s but in any case, make the prime match-up)
Then there’s guys I’ve heard of but know very little about. Don Curry (I believe he was p4p number 1 at one point, but that’s all, but I might be mixed up).

Tell me what prime for prime heavies do against Iron Mike

These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

Back in them days they were tougher men than they are now and thats the reasoning behind my opinion,tyson was awsome and everyone loved to watch him knock ppl out but if he was around in the 70's he would of been a level below most the men mentioned on here imo.

I think Tyson could have lived with any boxer in any era, just one boxer that might have given him problems could have been George foreman when Big George made his comback. I think a younger George would have been beaten but a older george is an interesting thought.

mimmy123 wrote:I think Tyson could have lived with any boxer in any era, just one boxer that might have given him problems could have been George foreman when Big George made his comback. I think a younger George would have been beaten but a older george is an interesting thought.

I think if tyson was to beat big george it would of been when he was older but a younger 1970's george would of took tysons head off

mimmy123 wrote:I think Tyson could have lived with any boxer in any era, just one boxer that might have given him problems could have been George foreman when Big George made his comback. I think a younger George would have been beaten but a older george is an interesting thought.

So hang on, you're saying the only fighter there that Tyson would have struggled with is Foreman?!

You think Ali who managed to overcome Liston and Foreman wouldn't have presented any problems?

Quite bizzare.

thechump wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

thechump wrote: These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

Back in them days they were tougher men than they are now and thats the reasoning behind my opinion,tyson was awsome and everyone loved to watch him knock ppl out but if he was around in the 70's he would of been a level below most the men mentioned on here imo.

Worth noting also, that for all of Tyson's mental fragility, he also had an incredible chin, in every fight he was stopped, he literally had to be hammered into the ground. So he was far from easy to stop.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

thechump wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

Back in them days they were tougher men than they are now and thats the reasoning behind my opinion,tyson was awsome and everyone loved to watch him knock ppl out but if he was around in the 70's he would of been a level below most the men mentioned on here imo.

Worth noting also, that for all of Tyson's mental fragility, he also had an incredible chin, in every fight he was stopped, he literally had to be hammered into the ground. So he was far from easy to stop.

In holyfield 1 it was one punch that made tysons legs stiffen up then he was trying to get away,douglas hit him with about a 4/5 punch combo starting with uppercut and he didnt get back up till ref said 10 all the other stoppages ill agree with u. Btw im a tyson fan but i dont think he would of beat these guys,its personal opinion init mate,there is no right or wrong answer

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

mimmy123 wrote:I think Tyson could have lived with any boxer in any era, just one boxer that might have given him problems could have been George foreman when Big George made his comback. I think a younger George would have been beaten but a older george is an interesting thought.

So hang on, you're saying the only fighter there that Tyson would have struggled with is Foreman?!

You think Ali who managed to overcome Liston and Foreman wouldn't have presented any problems?

Quite bizzare.

I just think Big george would have been a difficult fight. Not saying george would have beaten him. But George was a big lad and threw some decent bombs

mimmy123 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

mimmy123 wrote:I think Tyson could have lived with any boxer in any era, just one boxer that might have given him problems could have been George foreman when Big George made his comback. I think a younger George would have been beaten but a older george is an interesting thought.

So hang on, you're saying the only fighter there that Tyson would have struggled with is Foreman?!

You think Ali who managed to overcome Liston and Foreman wouldn't have presented any problems?

Quite bizzare.

I just think Big george would have been a difficult fight. Not saying george would have beaten him. But George was a big lad and threw some decent bombs

What and nobody else on that list would have given him problems?

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

mimmy123 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
So hang on, you're saying the only fighter there that Tyson would have struggled with is Foreman?!

You think Ali who managed to overcome Liston and Foreman wouldn't have presented any problems?

Quite bizzare.

I just think Big george would have been a difficult fight. Not saying george would have beaten him. But George was a big lad and threw some decent bombs

What and nobody else on that list would have given him problems?

of course there is

There are also lots on the list that wouldnt have given him problems. Mike Tyson was an animal looked after correctly he would have been the best fighter of all time beating Marciano's record. Unfortunately we cant alter history and what happened to Tyson in his career. Tyson was an open money making machine that was exploited to the full.

mimmy123 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

mimmy123 wrote:
I just think Big george would have been a difficult fight. Not saying george would have beaten him. But George was a big lad and threw some decent bombs

What and nobody else on that list would have given him problems?

of course there is

Right, well your statement seemed to indicate that you thought only Foreman would have given him problems. Read it back to yourself.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

mimmy123 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
What and nobody else on that list would have given him problems?

of course there is

Right, well your statement seemed to indicate that you thought only Foreman would have given him problems. Read it back to yourself.

sorry, no many people could have given Tyson a fight, im not suggesting that Tyson was indestructable. But I watch Foreman v Cooney for example and look how Foreman fought in his comeback years. I just think he could have troubled Tyson.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

thechump wrote:

magwitch wrote:Just for fun....prime for primes against some of these (generally bigger) guys?

Frazier
Norton
Ali
Shavers
Foreman
Chuvalo
Bugner

Some big men there with good chins. Let’s say a prime Larry Holmes too (altho I believe they actually fought. Perhaps Holmes’s prime was 80s not 70s but in any case, make the prime match-up)
Then there’s guys I’ve heard of but know very little about. Don Curry (I believe he was p4p number 1 at one point, but that’s all, but I might be mixed up).

Tell me what prime for prime heavies do against Iron Mike

These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

bit harsh Jim, overated?
Bugner, Ron Stander, Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena x2 , Jerry Quarry x 2, Jimmy Ellis X 2, Bob Foster and Mohammed Ali all as wins.....Id suggest it is better than Tysons resume.
I think Frazier vs Tyson would have been a slugfest of a war and cant predict the winner.
Probably one of my all time fantasy match ups right upthere with Holmes Lewis and the two sugars colliding.
And an absolute murderers row compared to today.

J wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

thechump wrote: These were big men the cream of the heavyweights imo apart from bugner. I think tyson gets beat by all apart from bugner. These heavies knew how to slug it out and iv seen a lot of tyson's fight's were he just tangles up ref says break then they get tangled up again. Holyfield bullied tyson in their first fight and i think that showed the world that to beat him u just had to stand upto him. I grew up as a tyson fan but i just think the era he was in his prime (mid 80's) was probably the worst era of heavyweight boxing. Tyson was great to watch and was a breath of fresh air to boxing at that time but there wasnt many other great fighters,pretty much the same as the wlad klitschko era,not their fault but a very very piss poor era.

I don't see how Chuvalo had the tools to live with Tyson.

I think Frazier is an extremely overrated fighter - his single win over Ali has inflated his position in the pantheon. Frazier faced very few big punchers, and the one really hard puncher he did face in Foreman annihilated him twice.

bit harsh Jim, overated?
Bugner, Ron Stander, Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena x2 , Jerry Quarry x 2, Jimmy Ellis X 2, Bob Foster and Mohammed Ali all as wins.....Id suggest it is better than Tysons resume.
I think Frazier vs Tyson would have been a slugfest of a war and cant predict the winner.
Probably one of my all time fantasy match ups right upthere with Holmes Lewis and the two sugars colliding.
And an absolute murderers row compared to today.

I know it seems a little harsh, but Frazier benefitted from not facing the likes of Lyle or Shavers, he wasn't in there with many big punchers at all, the only one he did face, albeit one of the most destructive of all time, spattered him.

I think styles make fights, and the fact Tyson got going so quickly in fight, and Joe took a long time to get into a rhythm massively favours Tyson. If Frazier survived the first 6 he's got a good shout, but I'd have serious doubts he could make it out of the first 4.

He'd have got hammered. Kid Dynamite he may have been but even in '79 her was only about 13.

Sklar wrote:He'd have got hammered. Kid Dynamite he may have been but even in '79 her was only about 13.

hahaha bravo sir

I think in the 70s its different.

Tough up and comers fought each other on the way up.

With The division star laden at the top. Tyson would have had to earn his spot.

The 80s had a lot of fancy dan or light hitting boxers at the B or C level like Tillis, Green,Page Ratcliff, M Frazier, Carl Williams, even a Douglas who in the normal course of events Tyson would beat easily.

Don't get me wrong the 80s had lots of talented fighters but Tyson could avoid the tougher guys like Tucker,Thomas,Spinks,Holmes until he was champ.

In the1970s he couldn't do that, he would surely have to fight a Norton,jimmy young, or Lyle, or Shavers on the way up.

Controversial wrote:

bigjack wrote:Tyson lost to everyone who stood up to him so i could see a case for him losing to everyone on the list.

Ruddock stood up to him and lost, twice. Most who tried to stand up to him were knocked out so not strictly true.

Agreed.

Bonecrusher had a go in the last 20 seconds landed a humungous right, MIke reacted with fury and was swinging at the bell as if the fight was just starting

Ruddock fights- Same thing. This time MIke did 20 rounds in 3 months with the 2nd most devastating puncher in the HW division at the time of Tyson/EH/Mercer/Morrison?Foreman/Lewis/Bowe. He showed incredible chin heart will to win.

Frank Bruno- A big puncher Mike fought back

Botha- Tyson was beaten according to most. 1 punch changed that.

Reggie Gross threw 18 punches had a real go. 1 punch again.

The 86-91 Tyson would fight back hard

Even a terrible shape Tyson fought back v douglas

Tyson would have won some and lost some. But when the defeat came it may have been the end of him. Once splattered, I doubt he'd have rebounded.

He was lethal and sharp early on. But he could get winded in the middle of a fight and in an era of 15 rounders he may have suffered badly late on.

Presumably, we're talking prime Tyson in these mythical match ups.the 1986-88 version, when he was punching in combination, cutting the ring down and moving his head.

You'd think Foreman would've been the worst opponent for him. And that the best matchups, perhaps, Shavers, Norton and - if Tyson can hurt and finish him early, Frazier.

How would prime Tyson have fared vs the very durable guys like Chuvalo, Bonavena etc? Frustration? Fatigue? Would he have been able to build the aura of intimidation?

Also, which fighters from this era would have been scared of him?

Autobarn wrote:Tyson would have won some and lost some. But when the defeat came it may have been the end of him. Once splattered, I doubt he'd have rebounded.

He was lethal and sharp early on. But he could get winded in the middle of a fight and in an era of 15 rounders he may have suffered badly late on.

Presumably, we're talking prime Tyson in these mythical match ups.the 1986-88 version, when he was punching in combination, cutting the ring down and moving his head.

You'd think Foreman would've been the worst opponent for him. And that, perhaps, Shavers, Norton and - if Tyson can hurt and finish him early, Frazier.

How would prime Tyson have fared vs the very durable guys like Chuvalo, Bonavena etc? Frustration? Fatigue? Would he have been able to build the aura of intimidation?

Also, which fighters from this era would have been scared of him?

I think Tyson would still have been a pretty intimidating figure in any era. Tyson tends to get chronically overrated or underrated. He'd have been a menace in any era. Chuvalo, Bonavena, tough men, but no way would they have won. What did they have to beat a peak Tyson with?

Autobarn wrote:Tyson would have won some and lost some. But when the defeat came it may have been the end of him. Once splattered, I doubt he'd have rebounded.

He was lethal and sharp early on. But he could get winded in the middle of a fight and in an era of 15 rounders he may have suffered badly late on.

Presumably, we're talking prime Tyson in these mythical match ups.the 1986-88 version, when he was punching in combination, cutting the ring down and moving his head.

You'd think Foreman would've been the worst opponent for him. And that, perhaps, Shavers, Norton and - if Tyson can hurt and finish him early, Frazier.

How would prime Tyson have fared vs the very durable guys like Chuvalo, Bonavena etc? Frustration? Fatigue? Would he have been able to build the aura of intimidation?

Also, which fighters from this era would have been scared of him?

He was ready to do another 12 rounds with smith, tucker,ruddock all guys who could punch and maul. He set a fast paced 10 with green and tillis and again looked like he could do 10 more.

I really think u have to look at Tyson 1986-91 and not post prison. So many people just base everything in post prison and it seems you have based the boldened comment on exactly that despite stating that isn't the case