BoxRec

magwitch wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

magwitch wrote:. Yes, Bolt is a fast, fast man. To be on drugs he’d have to be mentally not all there to have the face to pull it off.
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what in god's name are you on about?

To be a fraud and be able to not just bear, but thrive under that level of scrutiny and adoration. I think a normal person couldn’t keep it up. Sorry if I made that too difficult to follow.

So you believe that all top athletes who are drug cheats are mentally ill?

Boxerbeetle wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

what in god's name are you on about?

To be a fraud and be able to not just bear, but thrive under that level of scrutiny and adoration. I think a normal person couldn’t keep it up. Sorry if I made that too difficult to follow.

So you believe that all top athletes who are drug cheats are mentally ill?

Yeah that’s absolutely bang spot on the money, well done, David Frost And I think Usain Bolt kind of occupies an echelon in sport that is far, far less populous than that of “top athlete”. He is one of small number of people at the very pinnacle of world sport - any sport.

magwitch wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:

magwitch wrote:
To be a fraud and be able to not just bear, but thrive under that level of scrutiny and adoration. I think a normal person couldn’t keep it up. Sorry if I made that too difficult to follow.

So you believe that all top athletes who are drug cheats are mentally ill?

Yeah that’s absolutely bang spot on the money, well done, David Frost And I think Usain Bolt kind of occupies an echelon in sport that is far, far less populous than that of “top athlete”. He is one of small number of people at the very pinnacle of world sport - any sport.

Yes, in fact you could say he's a bit like Lance Armstrong / Carl Lewis / Roy Jones in that regard.

Boxerbeetle wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Boxerbeetle wrote:
So you believe that all top athletes who are drug cheats are mentally ill?

Yeah that’s absolutely bang spot on the money, well done, David Frost And I think Usain Bolt kind of occupies an echelon in sport that is far, far less populous than that of “top athlete”. He is one of small number of people at the very pinnacle of world sport - any sport.

Yes, in fact you could say he's a bit like Lance Armstrong / Carl Lewis / Roy Jones in that regard.

Hmm, I’d argue that Bolt’s significantly more famous than the last 2 ever were in that trio you’ve come up with over...what is that, a thirty-odd year time span? Although I’d listen to arguments that said Armstrong was somewhere close to him....cycling is pretty big news in several countries....In terms of prestige however, I’d say it has nothing on the men’s 100m Olympic final (let alone if you can double it up with the 200 also).
But then I’d actually call Armstrong into question here....he might not be loopy, but from what I’ve heard he was a nasty, aggressive, secretive, single-minded and ruthless control freak.
A long, long way away from Bolt’s happy-go-lucky, open demeanour, imo.

magwitch wrote: But then I’d actually call Armstrong into question here....he might not be loopy, but from what I’ve heard he was a nasty, aggressive, secretive, single-minded and ruthless control freak.
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he is a perfect example of a sociopath

Counter-puncher wrote:

magwitch wrote: But then I’d actually call Armstrong into question here....he might not be loopy, but from what I’ve heard he was a nasty, aggressive, secretive, single-minded and ruthless control freak.
.

he is a perfect example of a sociopath

This is somewhere along the lines of where I was going. I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic - my summary is based on what I’ve read from people that have spent a lot of years chasing him (not on bikes) and gathered up a lot of direct evidence from others.
Going back to my point, if anyone could carry off such a level of...dishonesty, and sleep easy, you’d back a sociopath over a more rounded person.

magwitch wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

magwitch wrote: But then I’d actually call Armstrong into question here....he might not be loopy, but from what I’ve heard he was a nasty, aggressive, secretive, single-minded and ruthless control freak.
.

he is a perfect example of a sociopath

This is somewhere along the lines of where I was going. I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic - my summary is based on what I’ve read from people that have spent a lot of years chasing him (not on bikes) and gathered up a lot of direct evidence from others.
Going back to my point, if anyone could carry off such a level of...dishonesty, and sleep easy, you’d back a sociopath over a more rounded person.

I wonder whether his brush with death (he was very close to death at one time, as cancer had spread to many parts of his body) had a marked psychological effect on him - to the tune of "win at all costs." I am amazed that this angle has not been explored more.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:

he is a perfect example of a sociopath

This is somewhere along the lines of where I was going. I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic - my summary is based on what I’ve read from people that have spent a lot of years chasing him (not on bikes) and gathered up a lot of direct evidence from others.
Going back to my point, if anyone could carry off such a level of...dishonesty, and sleep easy, you’d back a sociopath over a more rounded person.

I wonder whether his brush with death (he was very close to death at one time, as cancer had spread to many parts of his body) had a marked psychological effect on him - to the tune of "win at all costs." I am amazed that this angle has not been explored more.

Even though he was a cheating b*stard, he was still a very very hard-worker in an extremely tough job! And to get over cancer - the psychological shock as well as the physical toll...pretty awesome really. It’s a shame he is now basically synonymous with “DRUGS CHEAT”, in a way. I mean....it wasn’t all the drugs’ work was it?
Am I mistaken or did I see the other day that he now has his own radio or talk show Stateside? I’m sure I saw something about a guest on the Lance Armstrong Hour or something...

whoops.....I need to fix that..

magwitch wrote:whoops.....I need to fix that..

Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:whoops.....I need to fix that..

Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:whoops.....I need to fix that..

Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

EPO wasn't hard to detect, but unfortunately it is naturally occurring (it's the hormone which stimulates red blood cell production). Every human on the planet has it, and individuals express the production at different rates. So making a blanket threshold is unfair as you are guna catch people who produce naturally high levels. That's when the biological passport came in.

Rob3_142 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:
Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

EPO wasn't hard to detect, but unfortunately it is naturally occurring (it's the hormone which stimulates red blood cell production). Every human on the planet has it, and individuals express the production at different rates. So making a blanket threshold is unfair as you are guna catch people who produce naturally high levels. That's when the biological passport came in.

That's what I meant, you had to detect something other than the EPO itself.

I believe there was some sort of marker that showed up in blood results, that showed that EPO had been administered.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

I think he was calling the shots as far as the testers were concerned, telling them when and where he would oblige them and not the other way around

When you consider that Rio Ferdinand got an 8 month ban for leaving the training ground early, Armstrong was getting away with murder. (I’m sure if we just keep introducing new characters to this thread, eventually there will be someone with a kind of link back to Tyson Fury)

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:
Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

I think he was calling the shots as far as the testers were concerned, telling them when and where he would oblige them and not the other way around

When you consider that Rio Ferdinand got an 8 month ban for leaving the training ground early, Armstrong was getting away with murder. (I’m sure if we just keep introducing new characters to this thread, eventually there will be someone with a kind of link back to Tyson Fury)

I think in every sport, it is true that when someone becomes enough of a cash cow, then there comes a point where they start to be in an almost unassailable position.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Yes, I find it hard to believe he got there just because he was taking more drugs than everyone else.

What was the drug he was caught was EPO wasn't it - which I believe was very hard to detect back then and still is now, requiring sophisticated testing equipment.

I'm sure there were plenty of others at it.

I think he was calling the shots as far as the testers were concerned, telling them when and where he would oblige them and not the other way around

When you consider that Rio Ferdinand got an 8 month ban for leaving the training ground early, Armstrong was getting away with murder. (I’m sure if we just keep introducing new characters to this thread, eventually there will be someone with a kind of link back to Tyson Fury)

I think in every sport, it is true that when someone becomes enough of a cash cow, then there comes a point where they start to be in an almost unassailable position.

I wouldn’t rule it out. Look at Justin Gatlin, not one but TWO bans, expect to see him mount a serious challenge next month. If Bolt gets diahrrea or whatever, Gatlin is as good as 100m champion. How bad is that for a two time convicted drug cheat?

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:
I think he was calling the shots as far as the testers were concerned, telling them when and where he would oblige them and not the other way around

When you consider that Rio Ferdinand got an 8 month ban for leaving the training ground early, Armstrong was getting away with murder. (I’m sure if we just keep introducing new characters to this thread, eventually there will be someone with a kind of link back to Tyson Fury)

I think in every sport, it is true that when someone becomes enough of a cash cow, then there comes a point where they start to be in an almost unassailable position.

I wouldn’t rule it out. Look at Justin Gatlin, not one but TWO bans, expect to see him mount a serious challenge next month. If Bolt gets diahrrea or whatever, Gatlin is as good as 100m champion. How bad is that for a two time convicted drug cheat?

Yeah, has Gatlin got the fastest time of the year at the mo. Bolt isn't looking in great form, he's been out for much of the season, he has to be at his best to beat Gatlin.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
I think in every sport, it is true that when someone becomes enough of a cash cow, then there comes a point where they start to be in an almost unassailable position.

I wouldn’t rule it out. Look at Justin Gatlin, not one but TWO bans, expect to see him mount a serious challenge next month. If Bolt gets diahrrea or whatever, Gatlin is as good as 100m champion. How bad is that for a two time convicted drug cheat?

Yeah, has Gatlin got the fastest time of the year at the mo. Bolt isn't looking in great form, he's been out for much of the season, he has to be at his best to beat Gatlin.

Yes, checked Gatlin clocked 9.8 just 1 month ago.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:
I wouldn’t rule it out. Look at Justin Gatlin, not one but TWO bans, expect to see him mount a serious challenge next month. If Bolt gets diahrrea or whatever, Gatlin is as good as 100m champion. How bad is that for a two time convicted drug cheat?

Yeah, has Gatlin got the fastest time of the year at the mo. Bolt isn't looking in great form, he's been out for much of the season, he has to be at his best to beat Gatlin.

Yes, checked Gatlin clocked 9.8 just 1 month ago.

Gatlin probably not a great example of “unassailable position” by me, in relation to your post. But if he wins it will be a very strange feeling, and it’s possible. Form tends to be quite important with these sprinters.

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Yeah, has Gatlin got the fastest time of the year at the mo. Bolt isn't looking in great form, he's been out for much of the season, he has to be at his best to beat Gatlin.

Yes, checked Gatlin clocked 9.8 just 1 month ago.

Gatlin probably not a great example of “unassailable position” by me, in relation to your post. But if he wins it will be a very strange feeling, and it’s possible. Form tends to be quite important with these sprinters.

No, if he was unassailable (like Carl Lewis was years ago as THE face of Athletics) he'd never have failed those tests.

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:whoops.....I need to fix that..

Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Before Lance came along cycling was very niche, everybody cheated and nobody cared, like bodybuilding it was the participants' thing really. He made it big in the USA, yes Greg Lamond had been a champion but he didn't come close to crossing over. Lance's ego combined with Nike's sponsorship and the USA's love of a winner created the perfect storm to put cycling in the wider spotlight and make a huge deal out of something that didn't really matter given the similar antics of his competition.

Sklar wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Before Lance came along cycling was very niche, everybody cheated and nobody cared, like bodybuilding it was the participants' thing really. He made it big in the USA, yes Greg Lamond had been a champion but he didn't come close to crossing over. Lance's ego combined with Nike's sponsorship and the USA's love of a winner created the perfect storm to put cycling in the wider spotlight and make a huge deal out of something that didn't really matter given the similar antics of his competition.

Yes, that's a good point.

Sklar wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Bloody right you do - how very dare you!

Done

...and let’s not forget, the sport of Cycling, with all its tours was already well notorious.....there were chaps injecting something before Lance Armstrong was even born!

Before Lance came along cycling was very niche, everybody cheated and nobody cared, like bodybuilding it was the participants' thing really. He made it big in the USA, yes Greg Lamond had been a champion but he didn't come close to crossing over. Lance's ego combined with Nike's sponsorship and the USA's love of a winner created the perfect storm to put cycling in the wider spotlight and make a huge deal out of something that didn't really matter given the similar antics of his competition.

Yes, that's a good point.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

magwitch wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Yes, checked Gatlin clocked 9.8 just 1 month ago.

Gatlin probably not a great example of “unassailable position” by me, in relation to your post. But if he wins it will be a very strange feeling, and it’s possible. Form tends to be quite important with these sprinters.

No, if he was unassailable (like Carl Lewis was years ago as THE face of Athletics) he'd never have failed those tests.

Gotcha. No, probably not. Do you believe that Linford Christie was a cheat, out of interest?