BoxRec

Kalan,

More poor logic from you.

There's no way Hopkins gets away from GGG, who's an expert at cutting off the ring... Hop would be badly outworked, outjabbed, and overpowered... Chinny guys like Jermain Taylor, who beat Hopkins, would be gone in a couple rounds with Golovkin... GGG has no right hand??? You're insane man... Nobuhiro Ishida had never been knocked out before, and he fought hard punchers like James Kirkland and Dmitry Pirog... GGG sent Ishida to intensive care with 1 brutal short right in the 3rd round... Ishida fell like he was shot dead.

I don't think GG would have taken out Taylor in a couple of rounds, but even so, styles make fights and we're looking specifically at Bernard vs GG.

Roy Jones stops Gennady Golovkin??? ... Roy has been knocked down and out numerous times... Nobody has ever even knocked Golovkin down... And Roy is agile??? ... Roy has a wide stance, which makes him a little low and a little slow.. He's a little stiff through the shoulders.. and carries his hands a little low.. The combination makes him vulnerable to sharp straight punches -- and GGG has those weapons in spades.

Roy's first legitimate knockdown came after 50 fights in his 4th weight class against a big LHW.

Roy was a little slow? Ha!

You want to talk about vulnerabilities?

How about the fact that GG is easy to hit, and Roy was capable of doing this:

https://youtu.be/eyQkaeRgh2Q

?

Toney is lazy and can have a low work rate... He lost to guys like Montel Griffin and Drake Thadzi, who would be quick work for Golovkin.

Toney could be very lazy. But I'm sure he'd have respected GG enough to have gotten himself in top shape.

How the hell do you know that GG would have made quick work of Griffin and Thadzi? That is a nonsense statement based on nothing.

Why don't you think before you type?

GG hasn't fought beyond MW yet, and they were 2 LHW's. Griffin was a very good fighter.

It took GG 11 rounds to get rid of Martin Murray, but he would have beaten Montell Griffin with ease?

Get real.

golden oldie,

I think you are confusing speed with reflexes, and we ALL know what happened to RJJ when the reflexes deserted him. He became very, very ordinary. I honestly have no time or interest in excuses, so please don't bother trying to give them to me.

Great fighter when it all worked for him, but NOTHING to write home about when it didn't. No Ray Robinson, or Ali, that's for sure.

I have no time or interest in reading your biased posts.

Nobody has compared him with Ali or Robbo.

golden oldie wrote:To get annihilated by a Hearns, Tyson, Lewis, Jackson, McClellan, is one thing, but a Tarver, or a Johnson. Nah.

Do you think the 160-pound version of Roy Jones who fought Thomas Tate would have lost to Hearns or Jackson??? I'm curious because I watched the way Mike McCallum ripped Julian Jackson to pieces in 2 rounds -- and Tommy Hearns get knocked out 3 X in his 20's..

I always thought Roy Jones was a disaster looking for a place to happen, but a big hitter never got Roy because he was so fast.. At least not until he met Tarver... Tarver was a real good fighter IMO..Lazy, but smart.. He wasn't fast like Roy, but he didn't make any mistakes that could get him nailed clean.. Roy was so fast that he got away with mistakes like Pacquiao gets away with them... I thought Hearns and Jackson were even more vulnerable than Roy.. They would load up and throw when their opponent was throwing -- more so than Roy did.. Whenever they faced a good boxer-puncher I thought they might get knocked out.. I thought the same thing of Terry Norris who was blazing fast.. Norris would throw when he was wide open like Tommy Hearns did.. When Norris fought Jackson somebody was getting knocked cold because they both did it.

Ray Leonard thought he could beat Norris after watching Jackson obliterate him.. But Norris fought a disciplined fight vs SRL and never went for the knockout. Leonard couldn't reach him and I thought it was a shutout.. The funny thing is Norris could have been a great fighter. If you already knows you have good speed and skills and can outbox people like Leonard... and you already know your chin is such that you can get knocked out cold if you get careless... why would you ever risk trading punches with anybody? ... I think the reason Floyd Mayweather was so good is he was one of the most disciplined boxers ever.

Kalan wrote:

golden oldie wrote:To get annihilated by a Hearns, Tyson, Lewis, Jackson, McClellan, is one thing, but a Tarver, or a Johnson. Nah.

Do you think the 160-pound version of Roy Jones who fought Thomas Tate would have lost to Hearns or Jackson??? I'm curious because I watched the way Mike McCallum ripped Julian Jackson to pieces in 2 rounds -- and Tommy Hearns get knocked out 3 X in his 20's..

I always thought Roy Jones was a disaster looking for a place to happen, but a big hitter never got Roy because he was so fast.. At least not until he met Tarver... Tarver was a real good fighter IMO..Lazy, but smart.. He wasn't fast like Roy, but he didn't make any mistakes that could get him nailed clean.. Roy was so fast that he got away with mistakes like Pacquiao gets away with them... I thought Hearns and Jackson were even more vulnerable than Roy.. They would load up and throw when their opponent was throwing -- more so than Roy did.. Whenever they faced a good boxer-puncher I thought they might get knocked out.. I thought the same thing of Terry Norris who was blazing fast.. Norris would throw when he was wide open like Tommy Hearns did.. When Norris fought Jackson somebody was getting knocked cold because they both did it.

Ray Leonard thought he could beat Norris after watching Jackson obliterate him.. But Norris fought a disciplined fight vs SRL and never went for the knockout. Leonard couldn't reach him and I thought it was a shutout.. The funny thing is Norris could have been a great fighter. If you already knows you have good speed and skills and can outbox people like Leonard... and you already know your chin is such that you can get knocked out cold if you get careless... why would you ever risk trading punches with anybody? ... I think the reason Floyd Mayweather was so good is he was one of the most disciplined boxers ever.

Ray Leonard being far past his best had a lot to do with Terry Norris beating him. Prime for Prime Leonard would beat Norris.

I'm not sure... Norris was a little bigger, stronger, and faster.. Leonard was smarter and more contained.. More patient and less prone to error.. But sometimes when you're not taking the initiative and you're cleverly waiting for your shot.. The fight over and you've lost it.. Like Dundee telling Leonard, "Don't go to sleep on me Ray. You're blowing it son. You're blowing it." ... Norris was fast and explosive.. If he stuck to boxing it might have been like the middle rounds of the 1st Hearns fight.. I thought Hearns looked severely dehydrated for that fight. I've never seen him look so skinny in his life.. I was amazed he was ahead after 12 rounds because it looked like a stiff breeze would blow him away like dandelion fluff.

Jones would've beaten Tyson fairly easily by 2003 when a fight between him and Tyson was being discussed. Tyson wasn't Tyson anymore by then.

For Mike Tyson, I'm not so sure it was age as much as was discipline and work ethic. Tyson seemed ready for Douglas at 23, weight wise, ability wise. and experience wise. He didn't look rock-solid hard and ripped like he was for Michael Spinks. But he looked well toned, strong, and his weight was down. He had a long training camp and good sparring partners like Greg Page -- who could imitate Douglas's style and go a lot of hard rounds.

I heard that Mike and Page would sometimes disappear for hours after the morning run and sometimes in the evening. They'd go to shopping malls, parks and squares and pick up Japanese babes. But usually they were back for the afternoon workout within an hour or 2 of when they were supposed to be. Mike would run at like 3 AM to avoid the press and throngs of fans, so maybe that disrupted his circadian rhythm. You should eat and sleep at regular hours if you want to feel 1000%. Mike had a hard time doing that. Some fighters have a tendency to think they can slack a little bit. "How good do I have to be to beat this chump?"

golden oldie wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:Jones would've beaten Tyson fairly easily by 2003 when a fight between him and Tyson was being discussed. Tyson wasn't Tyson anymore by then.

Tyson was still dangerous enough for a few rounds to comatose Jones if he landed, and even that shell of his former self had better footwork than the totally inept Ruiz.

I don't think he would've landed clean on Roy. I think Roy would've beaten him easily.

Tyson abandoned the jab shortly after Jacobs died... He was blowing people away so he didn't need it... There weren't any boxers in the Heavyweight Division at that time.. Nobody had any skills.. That's the reason Buster Douglas snuck up on Tyson.. He wasn't expecting anybody who could box.

Roy was one of the best boxers in any division at that time.. At a rock hard 200 pounds his jab had much better timing, range, accuracy, and pop than anything Ruiz could land.. Ruiz was way taller and 235, but he couldn't corner Roy or shove him around like crazy.. Jay Nady stopped the action and told Ruiz, "I told you John, this is not a wrestling match. You can't grab him and push and shove him around." Nady was the right referee.. Ruiz couldn't get an effective glove on Roy.. I can see Roy controlling Tyson the same way, because Ruiz beat Holyfield and Holyfield beat Tyson twice.

Michael Spinks wasn't right for Tyson.. Not only was he carrying 212-pounds on a Light Heavyweight's frame---but his knees were destroyed and they weren't coming back.. Look at that fight and look how his knees were bound up.. Spinks was essentially cashing out of the game with the richest money fight in the History of Boxing to that point... I think he would have done fair in the fight if he had knees.

Well... Roy weighed 200 into the ring when he fought Ruiz.. He was no Lightweight.. And it doesn't matter how tall Michael Spinks was if his frame was that of a Light Heavyweight -- and his knees were bad, and he was carrying 212 because he had to beef up for Heavyweights.

His knees started to give him problems for the Tangstad fight.. and then one of his knees started going bad for the Cooney fight.. and he was training for another fight and he had to quit - because both knees were acting up and he couldn't train... He didn't fight for a year.. Look at the Tyson fight and see how his knees were bound up compared to previous fights.. It's like Sergio Martinez and his Cotto fight.. Once both knees go you don't have a chance and your career is over -- and Spinks cashed out with the biggest money fight he could get.

"Even as late as 2002 Tyson took some serious punishment before finally staying down against a 250 lb Lewis"

Well he wasn't looking to take that kind of punishment and get knocked out was he??? ... Mavrovic went 12 rounds with Lewis and never blinked from a shot

loudon wrote:

lazboy wrote:My two cents haha.

Toney UD win. Toney would out land and counter him, picking his spots.Watch GGG Kassim Ouma, he struggles with relentless inside pressure, which smother his punches like, the kind of fight Toney invites. Toneys is also very slick on the outside, doesn't present with much of a target.

I think he has a very good chance against Roy. More than a punchers chance. Pressure and chin arguments I agree with but he needs to catch Roy and theres were his stalking ring cutting footwork may elevate him.

Hopkins...this ones to hard for me to decide. Draw.

I respect your opinion, but look how fast and skilled Roy was, and look at how easy GG is to hit.

It would have been target practice.

I don't disagree. GGG would really need to find Roy and that would be no easy task, giving Roy the advantage from the offset. However, if G was able to corner Roy, which is his style and land on Roy to the body or the chin, this could slow things down. However Roy would prob be to fast, athletic for him, slipping off the ropes, darting in and out. I appreciate Golovkin would be easier to hit than Roy at middleweight but Golovkin also takes punches to get in range, keep the pressure on and also to exchange a better punch or just punch in general. I believe he's not as easy to hit if he chose to fight more cautiously which I believe he has the dimension (ring IQ) to adopt.

There's only one reason for an undefeated Lineal World Heavyweight Champion to be afraid of somebody.. Spinks was scared to death because he knew he was in no condition to fight with his knees being so bad.. It was for the MONEY ... He had never been knocked out so he was heading into the unknown.

golden oldie wrote:

Kalan wrote:"Even as late as 2002 Tyson took some serious punishment before finally staying down against a 250 lb Lewis"

Well he wasn't looking to take that kind of punishment and get knocked out was he??? ... Mavrovic went 12 rounds with Lewis and never blinked from a shot

Mavrovic never blinked from ANY punch, at ANY time in his career. So your point is?

My point is that some people could take punishment, but Tyson couldn't... He got stopped 5 X in fact.

Kalan wrote:I heard that Mike and Page would sometimes disappear for hours after the morning run and sometimes in the evening. They'd go to shopping malls, parks and squares and pick up Japanese babes. But usually they were back for the afternoon workout within an hour or 2 of when they were supposed to be. Mike would run at like 3 AM to avoid the press and throngs of fans, so maybe that disrupted his circadian rhythm. You should eat and sleep at regular hours if you want to feel 1000%. Mike had a hard time doing that. Some fighters have a tendency to think they can slack a little bit. "How good do I have to be to beat this chump?"

Where did you hear this?

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:I heard that Mike and Page would sometimes disappear for hours after the morning run and sometimes in the evening. They'd go to shopping malls, parks and squares and pick up Japanese babes. But usually they were back for the afternoon workout within an hour or 2 of when they were supposed to be. Mike would run at like 3 AM to avoid the press and throngs of fans, so maybe that disrupted his circadian rhythm. You should eat and sleep at regular hours if you want to feel 1000%. Mike had a hard time doing that. Some fighters have a tendency to think they can slack a little bit. "How good do I have to be to beat this chump?"

Where did you hear this?

I think Kalan was pals with Cus wasn't he? I'm sure I've heard that...I mean I know Cus had passed by this time but Kalans a boxing insider isn't he. Must know loads of guys in Tysons camp. I'm sure I've heard that anyway.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Kalan wrote:I heard that Mike and Page would sometimes disappear for hours after the morning run and sometimes in the evening. They'd go to shopping malls, parks and squares and pick up Japanese babes. But usually they were back for the afternoon workout within an hour or 2 of when they were supposed to be. Mike would run at like 3 AM to avoid the press and throngs of fans, so maybe that disrupted his circadian rhythm. You should eat and sleep at regular hours if you want to feel 1000%. Mike had a hard time doing that. Some fighters have a tendency to think they can slack a little bit. "How good do I have to be to beat this chump?"

Where did you hear this?

From people in his camp... and from people who knew people in his camp... People spread rumors, but I think he slacked more than a little bit for this one

I think he carried the power and chin to make Hopkins be more into self preservation than he was at 160. The other two are tougher calls because with Toney it is 2 guys who can take a beating, Toney is the one guy I could see going 12 rounds with Golovkin without doing it by self preservation. Jones I'm not sure was ever caught as hard as Golovkin would hit him and Golovkin is very good at cutting off the ring in a way most of RJJ's opponents weren't. Ultimately I'd say Golovkin to nick points over Hopkins ONLY IF the judges were feeling like calling out Hopkins' tactics, GGG to win by a few points over Toney and Jones to be too quick for him and win a comfortable points victory.

Roy Jones would have trouble with any pressure fighter with tremendous power... Toney and Hopkins were counterpunchers who Roy could pick off from distance because they waited... Tarver didn't wait.. That's why he knocked Roy out. "Are you gonna have any excuses tonight Roy??" ... Glen Johnson was also a strong pressure fighter although he was missing a jab... He stayed on Roy and kept working for 3 minutes a round -- until Roy was knocked cold for 1000... Gennady Golovkin would be on Roy even more than that... He might be the greatest attacker ever at Middleweight.

golden oldie,

I have to ask why do folks like you make this crap up?

In 71 fights Jones fought twice at less than Middleweight, against Ricky Stackhouse, and some bum called Kevin Daigle ( you do realise ANYTHING over 154 constitutes Middleweight don't you ) yet you claim his first KD was in his 4th weight division.

That is taking fanboyism to another level.

He weighed in twice as a JMW.

Okay, he got knocked out in his THIRD weight class.

Happy now?

It's not going to make a blind bit of difference to your biased view.

golden oldie,

I think you will find the only poster with bias on this forum is yourself, with your unhealthy hero worship of a proven PED cheat, and less than special fighter without his reflexes, by the name of Roy Jones Jr.

Hilarious after the horse manure you've wrote.

It might well irk you, but genuine ATG fighters simply do NOT get put to sleep the way RJJ has been, and by the calibre of fighters that put him there. Excuses can be made for almost anything, but reality simply can't be ignored. To get annihilated by a Hearns, Tyson, Lewis, Jackson, McClellan, is one thing, but a Tarver, or a Johnson. Nah.

It doesn't irk me.

It's amusing.

There's only you who doesn't think he's an ATG.

Roy's only been put to sleep 3 times:

Vs Johnson
Vs Lebedev
Vs Maccarinelli

Again, Johnson hit him at the side of the head, just a few months after Tarver had stopped him, and according to the doctor at ringside, he was completely dehydrated.

We don't need to elaborate on the other 2, as he was fighting big hitting CW's, whilst way past his best in his 40's.

It happens.

Other ATG's have been stopped by lesser fighters, especially at the end of their careers.

Kalan wrote:Roy Jones would have trouble with any pressure fighter with tremendous power... Toney and Hopkins were counterpunchers who Roy could pick off from distance because they waited... Tarver didn't wait.. That's why he knocked Roy out. "Are you gonna have any excuses tonight Roy??" ... Glen Johnson was also a strong pressure fighter although he was missing a jab... He stayed on Roy and kept working for 3 minutes a round -- until Roy was knocked cold for 1000... Gennady Golovkin would be on Roy even more than that... He might be the greatest attacker ever at Middleweight.

Still using the same poor logic, huh?


Again:

1. There was a world of difference between Roy at 25, and Roy at 35, coming off of a loss to Tarver.

2. GG hasn't got Glen's physical attributes.


Roy was bigger than GG at MW, he had a huge advantage in speed, and he was much harder to hit.

Seriously, did you not see Brook hit him over and over? Now imagine that'd have been the version of Roy who iced Thomas Tate. Roy would have made a mess of him.

golden oldie,

I love it when you accuse folks who don't blindly worship your hero " biased "

Erm hello, you are the one making shite up about the guys achievements. That is bias.

Another pathetic response.


1. Why does he have to be my hero?

2. I don't have an issue with anyone who isn't a huge fan of his.

3. All I expect from any poster, is a decent debate, that's objective, which is based on facts and logic.


You don't offer anything.

A blind man can see that you are completely biased.

You're an absolute joke who wants to disregard everything that Roy did in his first 50 fights, just because he ended up getting beat by the likes of Glen Johnson.


What have I made up regarding his achievements?

loudon wrote:golden oldie,

I love it when you accuse folks who don't blindly worship your hero " biased "

Erm hello, you are the one making shite up about the guys achievements. That is bias.

Another pathetic response.


1. Why does he have to be my hero?

2. I don't have an issue with anyone who isn't a huge fan of his.

3. All I expect from any poster, is a decent debate, that's objective, which is based on facts and logic.


You don't offer anything.

A blind man can see that you are completely biased.

You're an absolute joke who wants to disregard everything that Roy did in his first 50 fights, just because he ended up getting beat by the likes of Glen Johnson.


What have I made up regarding his achievements?

Great post Loudon.

golden oldie,


You've surpassed yourself this time.

It definitely does irk you, hence you foolishly arguing with anyone, all over the net in the face of overwhelming information to the contrary who doesn't worship Roy Jones Jr.

I like to debate with knowledgeable fans who are objective.

You're as bad as a troll.

There are plenty of folks who don't believe Jones Jr is a genuine ATG. You just put too much importance on the opinions of fanboys. They don't count.

You're just as biased as the average fanboy.

Johnson was " supposed " to hit him in the head you La La. Front or side, both are legitimate targets.

No sh*t, Einstein.


The point is:

Glen wasn't a renowned puncher, the punch wasn't particularly hard, and the doctor said he was severely dehydrated. All of which means that there was something clearly wrong. It was out of the ordinary. Although I give Glen credit for his tactics, I don't think Roy was physically or mentally fit enough to get back in the ring so soon after the Tarver defeat, and I don't think Glen would ever have beaten Roy before he went up to HW.

Weren't you the one who claimed,

1. Roy Jones deserved all the credit in the world for entering the ring at 196, and beating the 225 + Ruiz?

2. That the loss to Tarver was due to him " losing " the extra weight suddenly taking effect 14 months later?

1. I think Roy deserves a lot of credit for how he beat Ruiz with absolute ease.

2. Regarding Tarver, no, I never said that. That's all in your head. I've always given Tarver huge credit for his knockout win. It was the perfect punch. However, you could see in their first fight that he'd slowed down and he wasn't the fighter he'd once been. Yes, he was still a top fighter, but he wasn't in his prime. He looked different after the weight loss, and Tarver himself, as well as Chris Byrd and Chad Dawson, also suffered the same fate. You can read their accounts.

Yet here you are now claiming that even though he was equal in weight to the guys who sparked him, he only lost because they were big hitting Cruisers.

This highlights just how pathetic you are.

He lost to Lebedev because he had no business being in the ring with him. He was light years past his prime. If you've no sympathy, that's fine by me. But tell it like it is.

He was 42 fighting way beyond his natural weight class, only because he couldn't make LHW anymore because he couldn't do roadwork because of his knees. He'd also been inactive for over a year. Nobody but you would hold losses to Lebedev and Enzo against him. He shouldn't have been fighting. He should have retired years ago. They mean nothing. The Ruiz version of Roy would have beaten both of those guys on the same night.

Like I said your pathetic excuses for his defeats do have a certain comedic value, but that I suspect is mostly down to the level of blind fanboyism you employ whilst dreaming them up.

What pathetic excuses have I given?

I've given Tarver credit.

I've given Glen credit for his tactics.

I am still waiting for the list of genuine ATG's that were put to sleep by the likes of Glenn Johnson, Tarver, Maccarinelli, and Lebedev.

Let's get one thing straight:

The likes of Tarver and Lebedev etc, are/were good fighters.

They aren't/weren't scrubs.


Now seeing as though I'm apparently making excuses for Roy, let's see what you've got to say about the following:


Alexis Arguello was iced by a non great fighter at the beginning of his career.

Benny Leonard suffered the same fate.

Henry Armstrong was knocked out on his debut.

Ezzard Charles was taken out by non great fighters at the end of his career when he was past his best and broke.

Emile Griffith was taken out by Rubin Carter.

Bob Foster was taken out at the end of his career.

Thomas Hearns was taken out by Iran Barkley.

Mike Tyson was taken out by Douglas in his early 20's, and by journeymen like Williams at the end of his career.

Lennox Lewis was taken out by McCall and Rahman.

Wladimir Klitschko was taken out by the likes of Brewster and Sanders in his mid 20's.

Manny Pacquiao was iced twice on his way up by non great fighters in Singurat and Torrecampo.


How do you like that chief??


Remember, if I can't give reasons as to why Roy lost because they're apparently excuses, then I'm not not going to afford you the same opportunity.

So Roy's losses to the likes of Tarver at 35 are somehow shocking, even though Manny and Hearns lost to guys like Singurat and Barkley??

Were those guys on another level to the likes of Tarver?

Was Rubin Carter?


You are a JOKE!


At the end of the day, nobody really gives a f*ck about the above, because a fighter should be OBJECTIVELY judged on his OVERALL BODY OF WORK.

Sure, the losses can't be ignored. We can't pretend that they didn't happen. But they have to be put into CONTEXT.

Some of those guys listed lost to guys of Tarver's calibre BEFORE they even reached the heights that Roy did.

Imagine what you'd be saying if Roy had been iced by the likes of Tarver and Johnson EARLY in his career like those listed were? Ha!


If you genuinely don't think that Roy was an ATG based on losses at 35 to guys like Tarver and Johnson, and you're going to completely ignore everything that he did beforehand, then you my friend are absolutely f*cking clueless, and you need to delete your account ASAP.


I CANNOT WAIT to read your BS response. Although if I were you, I'd find another thread and forget about it.