The MIDDLEWEIGHT game: *CLOSED*

[Crease]

There's been a lot of points dished out. I will update everything tomorrow.

Keep going, gents.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

SRR MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE FIGHT'S AT 31 YEAR'S OLD RECORD WAS 6-1 NOW WHEN PAST HIS BEST IN MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE FIGHT'S WHEN WELL OVER 31 AND INTO HIS MID 30'S HIS RECORD WAS 4-5-1..............COMBINED MIDDLEWEIGHT WORLD TITLE FIGHT'S HIS COMBINED RECORD IS .............10-6-1 SO GO JAM THAT 3-3 RECORD UP YOUR NOSE AND ANOTHER THING IT WAS ROBINSON 3RD DEFENCE WHEN HE LOST HIS MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE TO TURPIN ARE YOU ON SOMETHING SEND ME SOME IT MUST BE FARKINGGGGGGGGG GOOD

[Kalan]

BTW... the guys who beat Robinson would probably be just as fearful of GGG as the top Middleweights today are... He's a pretty scary dude.

GGG is in the same boat as Monzon never ever faced a fighter anywhere near the ability of SRR when SRR was in his prime fighting day's he was no older then 31 years old GGG needs to move up in weight if he wants to cement his legacy JUST LIKE SRR THE P4P KING DID BEST FIGHTER IN HISTORY.

Well...you have to think about who they fought and who they lost to... And think about it clear headedly instead of going along with the usual mythology... Emile Griffith easily outboxed Dick Tiger twice... Tiger won the LHW title by beating a much better puncher and boxer (Joes Torres) than Joey Maxim was.. But Tiger was basically an inept swinger who couldn't beat the slick boxing Emile Griffith... but Tiger easily took the measure of Gene Fullmer all 3 times he fought him.. Forget the draw they handed Fullmer in the rematch, because Tiger chased a running Fullmer all night and thought he won easily.. So did I... It was no draw... In their 3rd fight Tiger stopped Fullmer after giving him a monster beating.. Robinson only managed 1 win in 4 fights with Fullmer.. He should have out-boxed him easily.. And the uncoordinated and chinny Turpin also beat SRR... and Ralph Jones came off 5 straight losses to beat Robinson, and you have to factor that all in... SRR never beat a slick boxing Middleweight.

Monzon was a different animal... Bigger, stronger, and a more powerful puncher than Robinson, he was more difficult to hit and floor... He beat the slick Griffith twice... He crunched Benvenuti twice... He beat the superb Rodrigo Valdez twice... He was 14-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses and Robinson was 3-3.

[Kalan]

COMBINED MIDDLEWEIGHT WORLD TITLE FIGHT'S [Robinson's] COMBINED RECORD IS 10-6-1

That's not good -- Gennady Golovkin's is 18-0.... Bernard Hopkins is 21-3-1... Carlos Monzon's is 15-0... and Marvin Hagler's is 13-1-1... All leave SRR in the dust.

And it's not surprising when you think about it.. Robinson was decked hard by such unskilled boxers as Rocky Graziano... Tommy Bell... Jake LaMotta.. and Artie Levine in his prime... Golovkin was never decked... Hagler was never decked though 1 was called... Monzon was only decked by Rodrigo Valdez... Hopkins was seldom decked.. Obviously Hagler, Monzon and Golovkin were never stopped in their lives or ever close to a stoppage.. Robinson was stopped by a powder puff hitter.. His supporters drag out the heat excuse -- but it was just as hot for the anemic hitting Maxim in that ring as it was for Robinson.. JM easily endured the heat and Robinson didn't.. Maxim won by 13th round SRR quitting in the corner.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

COMBINED MIDDLEWEIGHT WORLD TITLE FIGHT'S [Robinson's] COMBINED RECORD IS 10-6-1

That's not good -- Gennady Golovkin's is 18-0.... Bernard Hopkins is 21-3-1... Carlos Monzon's is 15-0... and Marvin Hagler's is 13-1-1... All leave SRR in the dust.

And it's not surprising when you think about it.. Robinson was decked hard by such unskilled boxers as Rocky Graziano... Tommy Bell... Jake LaMotta.. and Artie Levine in his prime... Golovkin was never decked... Hagler was never decked though 1 was called... Monzon was only decked by Rodrigo Valdez... Hopkins was seldom decked.. Obviously Hagler, Monzon and Golovkin were never stopped in their lives or ever close to a stoppage.. Robinson was stopped by a powder puff hitter.. His supporters drag out the heat excuse -- but it was just as hot for the anemic hitting Maxim in that ring as it was for Robinson.. JM easily endured the heat and Robinson didn't.. Maxim won by 13th round SRR quitting in the corner.

NO WHATS NOT GOOD MATE IS YOU AND YOUR 3-3...GETTING DECKED ITS ONLY A PROBLEM IF YOU DON'T GET UP SRR NEVER KO'D GET BACK TO ME WHEN YOU FIND SOMEONE THAT DECKED HIM AND KEPT HIM ON HIS BACK DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH WHILE YOUR SEARCHING MMMMMMM THEN AGAIN SEE IF YOU CAN HOLD YOUR BREATH UNTILL YOU FIND SOMEONE THAT DECKED HIM FOR THE COUNT OF 10

[ClivePatrickLyons]

This really does not make sense to take into account with regard to the rules.
Golovkin

GGG is clearly the World's top Middleweight... Robinson got beaten in his 1st Middleweight Title Defense and pretty regular after that -- so it wasn't clear he was the best... SRR was 3-3 in MIddleweight Title Defenses with 2 KO wins... Golovkin is 17-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses with 17 KO wins.

So winning the World Title don't count when you add up someone's World Title fight's you keep moving the goal post's to help support your stupid method of degrading P4P KING SRR GGG will go down as a mediocre Champion if he doesn't move up in weight and beat some bigger better men like The P4P King did over and over even when way past his best even sometimes a loss will elevate your legacy especially if your are the real deal and people know you ducked no one even the bigger/younger foe's SRR was and is voted by most experts the BEST EVER AT ANY WEIGHT

[Crease]

YES---considering Carmen Basilio, Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, and a raft of other less than athletic or fast Middleweights lost to MANY 2nd raters you never even heard of---but they all beat Sugar Ray Robinson

It is worth pointing out that Robinson's career lasted from 1940-1965.

For the first 10 years (1940-50) he only lost a single fight- to LaMotta in 1943.
In the second 10 years (1950-61) he only lost to 6 men - Turpin, Maxim, Jones, Fullmer, Basilio & Pender.

It should be noted that Terry Downes often said that:
"I beat a guy called Robinson. But I never fought the real Sugar Ray"

And Ireland's Mick Leahy said in an interview:
"That boy was my hero, but when we were in the ring together - I knew it wasn't the same man"

Sugar Ray went on for too long. He should have left in 1961 after his second loss to Fullmer - he had nothing left in the tank.

[elmersalsa]

YES---considering Carmen Basilio, Jake LaMotta, Gene Fullmer, Randy Turpin, Ralph Jones, and a raft of other less than athletic or fast Middleweights lost to MANY 2nd raters you never even heard of---but they all beat Sugar Ray Robinson

It is worth pointing out that Robinson's career lasted from 1940-1965.

For the first 10 years (1940-50) he only lost a single fight- to LaMotta in 1943.
In the second 10 years (1950-61) he only lost to 6 men - Turpin, Maxim, Jones, Fullmer, Basilio & Pender.

It should be noted that Terry Downes often said that:
"I beat a guy called Robinson. But I never fought the real Sugar Ray"

And Ireland's Mick Leahy said in an interview:
"That boy was my hero, but when we were in the ring together - I knew it wasn't the same man"

Sugar Ray went on for too long. He should have left in 1961 after his second loss to Fullmer - he had nothing left in the tank.

Sugar Ray should have retired after he beat the great Carmen Basilio in the rematch in 1957.

[Crease]

Sugar Ray should have retired after he beat the great Carmen Basilio in the rematch in 1957.

Yeah, I was going to correct my statement there, he should have been long gone before his inevitable decline. I would have loved to have seen him walk away with millions in the bank, where he could live in comfort and ease.

[gilgamesh]

I could've sworn I provided my list for this, but I guess I didn't. I'll get it later.

[Crease]

I could've sworn I provided my list for this, but I guess I didn't. I'll get it later.

No Gil, I've just went through the Manager names on my Excel and you aren't in there.

[Crease]

My list:

1 Carlos Monzon (9.5 pts each)
1 Marvin Hagler (9.5 pts each)

(For me, it's a real 50/50 between both of them. And I've been thinking about it for weeks and I go back and forth on a daily basis.
Instead of giving out more pts than I'm allowed to, I'd be more comfortable splitting the difference between them)

3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Bob Fitzsimmons
5 Jake LaMotta
6 Bernard Hopkins
7 Harry Greb
8 Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
9 Charley Burley
10 Gennady Golovkin

- Clearly I don't rank Greb as highly as others do, but I just haven't seen or read enough of him to be rating him as highly as others (probably my fault)

[Crease]

1 Carlos Monzon (9.5 pts each)
1 Marvin Hagler (9.5 pts each)

(For me, it's a real 50/50 between both of them. And I've been thinking about it for weeks and I go back and forth on a daily basis.
Instead of giving out more pts than I'm allowed to, I'd be more comfortable splitting the difference between them)

To hell with it, I'm giving Monzon the 10. Hagler gets the 9... This things has been wrecking my head for long enough.

[Tomasino]

My list:

1 Carlos Monzon (9.5 pts each)
1 Marvin Hagler (9.5 pts each)

(For me, it's a real 50/50 between both of them. And I've been thinking about it for weeks and I go back and forth on a daily basis.
Instead of giving out more pts than I'm allowed to, I'd be more comfortable splitting the difference between them)

3 Sugar Ray Robinson
4 Bob Fitzsimmons
5 Jake LaMotta
6 Bernard Hopkins
7 Harry Greb
8 Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
9 Charley Burley
10 Gennady Golovkin

- Clearly I don't rank Greb as highly as others do, but I just haven't seen or read enough of him to be rating him as highly as others (probably my fault)

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

[gilgamesh]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tommy Ryan
8. Jake Lamotta
9. Charley Burley
10. Freddie Steele

[Crease]

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

Thanks very much for the offer, Mr Tomasino - I might take you up on it at a later date. It was my birthday last month and my stepdaughter bought me NINE books, so I'm trying to make some headway through them.

[Crease]

Current Scoreboard: (15 Members have voted)

1st - 133 pts Harry Greb
2nd - 114 pts Carlos Monzon
3rd - 106 pts Marvin Hagler
4th - 105 pts Sugar Ray Robinson
5th - 67 pts Stanley Ketchel
6th - 48 pts Mickey Walker
7th - 35 pts Bernard Hopkins
8th - 31 pts Bob Fitzsimmons
9th - 27 pts Sam Langford
10th - 22 pts Roy Jones Jr

11th - 18 pts Tiger Flowers
12th - 17 pts Dick Tiger
13th - 16 pts Gennady Golovkin
14th - 14 pts Charley Burley
Tied 15th - 13 pts Mike Gibbons
Tied 15th - 13 pts Jake LaMotta
Tied 17th - 12 pts James Toney
Tied 17th - 12 pts Nino Benvenuti
Tied 19th - 8 pts Tony Zale
Tied 19th - 8 pts Marcel Cerdan

21st - 4 pts Freddie Steele
Tied 22nd - 3 pts Tommy Ryan
Tied 22nd - 3 pts Kid McCoy
Tied 24th - 1 pts Mike McCallum
Tied 24th - 1 pts Gene Fullmer
Tied 24th - 1 pts Holman Williams

Massive lead opened up for Mr Greb.
The other trio who've scored the century, need to get their skates on to have any chance of catching him.

[Seamus]

9 books Two yrs ago this Christmas, my gf and her mom got me 12.

[Crease]

9 books Two yrs ago this Christmas, my gf and her mom got me 12.

Yeah, she got them on a discount, then got carried away with her excitement.
She knows that I like reading sports books, so she was in her element at the bookstore. Bless her wee soul.

[Tomasino]

Mr. Crease if you'd like I can send you my copy of Klomptons book on Greb, it's fantastic.

Thanks very much for the offer, Mr Tomasino - I might take you up on it at a later date. It was my birthday last month and my stepdaughter bought me NINE books, so I'm trying to make some headway through them.

Anytime sir

[Crease]

When you consider that it's only the 3rd November...
This has probably been the most hotly contested of the divisions thus far...

Only God knows what the scoreboard is like by the time that the deadline comes...

[davie]

When you consider that it's only the 3rd November...
This has probably been the most hotly contested of the divisions thus far...

Only God knows what the scoreboard is like by the time that the deadline comes...

The top 4 are always contentious when it comes to the 160 weight class

2 long reigning great career MW's in Hagler and Monzon and 2 guys who would finish top 5 in most peoples p4p ATG list but spent time in other divisions.

It's nice that we can put an end to it for ever with this poll....

[APerno]

BTW... the guys who beat Robinson would probably be just as fearful of GGG as the top Middleweights today are... He's a pretty scary dude.

GGG is in the same boat as Monzon never ever faced a fighter anywhere near the ability of SRR when SRR was in his prime fighting day's he was no older then 31 years old GGG needs to move up in weight if he wants to cement his legacy JUST LIKE SRR THE P4P KING DID BEST FIGHTER IN HISTORY.

Well...you have to think about who they fought and who they lost to... And think about it clear headedly instead of going along with the usual mythology... Emile Griffith easily outboxed Dick Tiger twice... Tiger won the LHW title by beating a much better puncher and boxer (Joes Torres) than Joey Maxim was.. But Tiger was basically an inept swinger who couldn't beat the slick boxing Emile Griffith... but Tiger easily took the measure of Gene Fullmer all 3 times he fought him.. Forget the draw they handed Fullmer in the rematch, because Tiger chased a running Fullmer all night and thought he won easily.. So did I... It was no draw... In their 3rd fight Tiger stopped Fullmer after giving him a monster beating.. Robinson only managed 1 win in 4 fights with Fullmer.. He should have out-boxed him easily.. And the uncoordinated and chinny Turpin also beat SRR... and Ralph Jones came off 5 straight losses to beat Robinson, and you have to factor that all in... SRR never beat a slick boxing Middleweight.

Monzon was a different animal... Bigger, stronger, and a more powerful puncher than Robinson, he was more difficult to hit and floor... He beat the slick Griffith twice... He crunched Benvenuti twice... He beat the superb Rodrigo Valdez twice... He was 14-0 in Middleweight Title Defenses and Robinson was 3-3.

This is from the heart (take a look at my #10 pick).

I agree with your assessment of Monzon’s championship run, one of the best ever, but I take issue with Monzon ‘crushing’ Benvenuti (I) – When one fighter crushes another Ring Magazine doesn’t usually make it their ‘fight of the year’ (70) – Benvenuti-Monzon I was one of Monzon’s more difficult title fight; at the end, in ’76 and ’77 Valdes took him the distance twice but I think the first Benvenuti fight was a tougher fight for Monzon.

Second fight he crushed him.

[BoxBuzz]

Why has no one rated Wilt for his MW achievements?

Was he ever beaten in that division?

I think not.

[gilgamesh]

Why has no one rated Wilt for his MW achievements?

Was he ever beaten in that division?

I think not.

Racism is outta control man