BoxRec

Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

I too wish Gutnecht a quick and full recovery.

WildWaylon wrote:Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

Wasn't Dirty Derry well behind when he knocked Tommy Coyle out?

TheLeprechaun wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

John tate's loss to mike weaver, totally outclassed for all 15 rounds, then BOOM! The scores were fairly close at the time of the stoppage, but I remember watching it at the time, and thinking Weaver needed a miracle to win, then he produced a rabbit out of the hat.

BrumBlue wrote:Wasn't Dirty Derry well behind when he knocked Tommy Coyle out?

He was but he still looked dangerous when he threw, gutkneght didn't have any pop in his punches to land a sickener or even buzz groves.

Bodyshot3 wrote:

Stupid fecking corner should have saved their man, I was saying last night what a dumbass brave corner the poor bloke had, beat up to hell & they had not the slightest inclination to save him ...

Agreed

The way I saw it...the poor guy was getting totally worked over by Groves and when Gutknecht was firing back it was just desperate, courageous and aimless flurries rather than anything that was ever going to realistically turn the fight around.

Gutknecht's a warrior and has a rep for coming on strong late but he's also 34 - had some hard, hard nights - and frankly he was simply bravely pushing out stuff blindly just to stop himself from getting hit flush any more.

Not sure what the 'feck his corner were about - they seemed to believe their guy was made of titanium and Groves was just slapping - and they could not even keep their side of the ring dry for their fighter. Place looked like a bloody swamp

I had money on Groves by stoppage so i was fustrated watching a guy take a hiding with a bad eye injury box on for no reason other than to gear the final bell.

Now having heard the news last night there needs to be serious questions asked about the attitudes of ref & the corners when theres a situation of a guy just looking to hear a final bell. Wtf is the point? For a fighter to risk his life for the sake a little bit of pride in an obvious defeat?

TheLeprechaun wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

Froch was nowhere near totally outclassed, that's just daft talk. Froch also had the ability to pull out a KO when he really needed it. Looking at Gutknecht's record he doesn't look like a man who has real power at top level, he also had a bad injuury which meant he could barely see out of one eye. The comparison is very, very weak.

I personally didn't think about the stoppage at the time due to Gutknects reputation.
He's known to be very durable and unfortunately has been well behind after 12 before.
I've seen him a fair few times over the years and his corner would of been aware of his lasting the distance reputation.

In hindsight I wish they stopped it but the problem here isn't the corner or the referee it's the weight drop to SM. That's the only difference between this and his previous losses.

When the board do their investigation I hope they concentrate on how he made the weight and learn lessons from that.

Wish him a speedy recovery. Get well soon ENERGY EDDY

I don't like that 10 points behind-auto stoppage rule, hope that's not the case. The amateurs introduced that nonsense a few years back.

It's completely flawed and negates the nature of a boxing match, when it's possible to be come from way behind and turn matters around.

Whole new tactical approaches need to be made if that's the case. Surely that's not right

I had money on Groves by stoppage so i was fustrated watching a guy take a hiding with a bad eye injury box on for no reason other than to gear the final bell.

Now having heard the news last night there needs to be serious questions asked about the attitudes of ref & the corners when theres a situation of a guy just looking to hear a final bell. Wtf is the point? For a fighter to risk his life for the sake a little bit of pride in an obvious defeat?

Agreed!

It sounds harsh...but I almost wish George had just ended it with a decent body punch rather landing dozens of extra, clean head shots.

Mag witch

Just a note on your comment regarding the 10 points stoppage rule.

In theory a boxer would be stopped for example at the end of the fifth round if he'd been down for a count in each round. Five 10-8 rounds.

dalcumly wrote:Mag witch

Just a note on your comment regarding the 10 points stoppage rule.

In theory a boxer would be stopped for example at the end of the fifth round if he'd been down for a count in each round. Five 10-8 rounds.

That's crazy. So theoretically Marquez could have been pulled out of the first Pacquiao fight after 2/3 rounds?

Boxerbeetle wrote:

dalcumly wrote:Mag witch

Just a note on your comment regarding the 10 points stoppage rule.

In theory a boxer would be stopped for example at the end of the fifth round if he'd been down for a count in each round. Five 10-8 rounds.

That's crazy. So theoretically Marquez could have been pulled out of the first Pacquiao fight after 2/3 rounds?

To be honest mate, the ref could have stopped it after the third knockdown and very few people would have been complaining, including me.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

TheLeprechaun wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

John tate's loss to mike weaver, totally outclassed for all 15 rounds, then BOOM! The scores were fairly close at the time of the stoppage, but I remember watching it at the time, and thinking Weaver needed a miracle to win, then he produced a rabbit out of the hat.

I will wait that one soon mate. Great that you can watch fights so easily today. I remember wanting to watch bruno lewis for years and looking for someone online to sell a tape of the fight to me!

Think there are some misconceptions on this thread about a points-based "outclassed" rule in British boxing.

First, there is no new rule. There was an old rule, which had existed for decades, which was abolished a couple of months back (the last sentence has been deleted from Reg 3.34, although the version on the Board's website has not yet been updated). That sentence said that if at the end of any round, a boxer was 10 points behind, the referee had to stop the fight. As people have said in this thread, it seems a sensible call not to have such a rule based on points.

The 10-point margin rule was occasionally used in the past - Charlie Nash won the vacant British title against Johnny Clayton in February 1978 in this way, controversially - Claydon was stopped at the end of round 12 of the 15 rounds because Roland Dakin had him 10 points down, not because he was in any difficulty. The rule dated from the era of the half-point system, where 10 points then would be equivalent to 20 points on the full point system now (e.g. something nuts like 11 rounds down with 9 of the rounds being 10-8 rounds - something like that). Apart from that fight, though, I am struggling to think of other examples when it has been used.

Before that, going back to the era of the quarter point system in Britain, the rule was vaguer - in an old BBBofC rulebook which is (helpfully) undated but is pre-decimalisation, it says "If at the conclusion of any round during the Contest, one of the contestants should attain such a lead on points as to render it an impossibility for his opponent to win, he must then be declared the winner." Plainly this didn't mean being 8 rounds up after 8 rounds of a 15-rounder, as I don't recall any stoppages on that basis, but no idea how/if this rule was ever applied in practice. It's the kind of thing Graham Houston would know, if he's reading this.

Returning to the present; even after getting rid of that bit of Reg 3.34, an outclassed rule is still in there - referee can stop the contest "if at any time during a contest the Referee decides, in his complete discretion, that one contestant is outclassed or is unable to continue as a result of injury or is not in a position to continue boxing". So it is still there more generally, and it's just the points-based bit that has been removed.

Hope that is of some interest, anyway.

PS - dalcumly, the removal of the rule was in a Board circular a few months back, but as the deleted bit was highlighted and not struck through, it was easy to misread it as an addition rather than a deletion. Was that your reason for thinking there was a new rule?

But the real thing that matters in all of this is Gutknecht's health. Hope he makes a full recovery - good luck to him.

TheLeprechaun wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

TheLeprechaun wrote:


Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

John tate's loss to mike weaver, totally outclassed for all 15 rounds, then BOOM! The scores were fairly close at the time of the stoppage, but I remember watching it at the time, and thinking Weaver needed a miracle to win, then he produced a rabbit out of the hat.

I will wait that one soon mate. Great that you can watch fights so easily today. I remember wanting to watch bruno lewis for years and looking for someone online to sell a tape of the fight to me!

It's a real doozy, I watched it on ITV I think on a sunday, I remember my mum was doing the ironing, and when the KO came I went running into the kitchen screaming my head off. It was from my recollections one huge punch that turned the fight on its head.

Made all the worse in that Groves should not have been fighting Gutknecht in the first place coming off the win over Murray. Total waste of time fight, especially to headline an event. I didn't have a problem with Eubank-Blackwell because at that time Eubank hadn't really proven himself as far superior but did anyone give Gutknecht a chance? Tragedies happen in boxing but bad matchmaking for 12 round 'title' fights is something that deserves more criticism, and beyond that of their poor entertainment value. Get well soon, Eduard.

Just remember if a ref stops fights because one guy is so far behind he doesn't see the point of it continuing the guy who gets stopped has a ban and can't fight until lifted. A lot of these guys are journeymen that fight week in week out.

Just saying.

TheCobra wrote:

TheLeprechaun wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:Carl Froch was totally outclassed by Germain Taylor and was several rounds down when he found the KO punch in the final minute of the last round. OK, although Froch was losing, he wasnt being beaten up so it was right to let him carry on. We cant have a rule that says the fight must be stopped if a fighter can no longer win on points. I think the corner has to make the decision. If their fighter has a poor stoppage record then he should be pulled out. Froch was known for his big bombs so as long as he was defending well, he was always dangerous and capable of finding the KO punch, which he did.

Froch was nowhere near totally outclasses in that fight. Losing by a few rounds but well in it. One judge had him four rounds up at the time of the stoppage.

I cant really think of too many fights where a guy looked outclassed and lost every round like blackwell and gutneckt and then managed to pull it out. Chavez vs taylor is probably the biggest.turnaround ever but chavez wasnt getting beaten up. Big difference

Froch was nowhere near totally outclassed, that's just daft talk. Froch also had the ability to pull out a KO when he really needed it. Looking at Gutknecht's record he doesn't look like a man who has real power at top level, he also had a bad injuury which meant he could barely see out of one eye. The comparison is very, very weak.

I dont think you read my post properly. Froch was well behind against Taylor and thats a fact, and I did make the point Froch had the ability to turn things around.

One thing that strikes me about this fight is that I don't recall the ringside doctor stepping in and demanding to look at EG's injury....Board rulings about correct and timely interventions clearly matter and need to be clarified - but I thought Gutknecht's ability to see was a real issue.

He was getting hit cleanly by punches he could not taking any avoiding action against and what complicated matters (for the worse) was that he was always firing back and challenging the ring space with George - but still getting hit repeatedly.

I have never been sure about the exact process and who has the authority in the British ring; does the Doctor have the power to alert the referee at any time (whether someone is ahead or not) and demand to examine the cut/swelling or does he need to be invited in by the referee and the ref then decides?

Realistic wrote:Just remember if a ref stops fights because one guy is so far behind he doesn't see the point of it continuing the guy who gets stopped has a ban and can't fight until lifted. A lot of these guys are journeymen that fight week in week out.

Just saying.

Journeymen like that shouldn't be in 10 and 12 rounders.

WildWaylon wrote:I dont think you read my post properly. Froch was well behind against Taylor and thats a fact, and I did make the point Froch had the ability to turn things around.

That's not a fact.

One judge had Froch ahead at the time of the stoppage and most people had the fight pretty close.

Does anybody know how he is now ?