BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ettt9350 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: No Jones?

Jones is just behind them both at third for me because he did not have as many big wins in the division as Calzaghe and Ward did. Jones is undoubtedly the best fighter of the three however.

Toney is undoubtedly the best win any of them had.

I agree, but Calzaghe and Ward both had more significant wins at super-middle than Jones. Kessler(both) Eubank, Dawson, Froch, Bika(both) Abraham, Lacy.

Froch is the next best win any of them had. Without looking it up. Tate, malinga & Sosa fit in with most on your list.eubank wasn't exactly prime.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Froch is the next best win any of them had. Without looking it up. Tate, malinga & Sosa fit in with most on your list.eubank wasn't exactly prime.

Disagree, Kessler was better than Froch for me, and Tate was at middleweight.Jones just wasn't in the division long enough to establish himself as the best super middle ever, Calzaghe and Ward both beat more world champions than Jones at the weight.

Never real big on Kessler. Very solid fighter, perhaps the internet nuthuggery made me go the other way. I knew he had zero chance against calzaghe and picked ward too.

Could have done so much more.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:Legit question: is Andre Ward significantly greater than Winky Wright or Marco Antonio Barrera, and if so, why? I thought about it a little, and I'm not entirely convinced.

I'd rate him slightly greater than winky and mab significantly greater than ward.

I came here to post the same thing.

He'd be remembered as the greatest Super Middleweight of all time -- but a guy who wimped out after he took a beating from Kovalev with a friendly referee letting him get away with murder with his head butting, shoving, and wrestling on the inside. He lost 117-110.

I agree with enlightened one, he will have a very strong legacy. Best at super middleweight. Now best at light heavyweight, admittedly, won a close fight that could have gone either way. But jumped off the canvas to control a viscious puncher.

Theres not much more for ward to achieve. He will be too small for cruiserweight. There's a rematch and stevenson, beterbiev, possibly de gale, possibly golovkin at a catchweight.

Still a kovalev rematch would be nice to see, so hopefully his promoter coughs up the dough.

My point in using MAB and Winky is that Winky is a guy who is borderline on the IBHOF, while MAB is someone who barely if ever was Top 3 on P4P lists, yet fought a ton of great guys over a long period of time and won about as many of those important fights as he lost. "The 25 best of our time" is such a strange parameter to use since what the hell is "our time?" and not all of those 25 might be HOF-worthy. I would have to consider him if I was looking at myself as a boxing fan from the mid-late 90s to present. If I had been old enough to be regularly watching in the 80s, there's no chance.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

zorndeslammes wrote:Legit question: is Andre Ward significantly greater than Winky Wright or Marco Antonio Barrera, and if so, why? I thought about it a little, and I'm not entirely convinced.

I'd rate him slightly greater than winky and mab significantly greater than ward.

I came here to post the same thing.

That because yall rate Naz so high. Why I don't know Barrera is great no question but never dominating whole division like Ward did. In even in Ward lose never got knockout and lose to inferior fighters. Barrera clearly did more for the sport but Ward was dominate and was the better overall fighter imo.

As the new Lennox Lewis, as a pussy by people that know what they are talking about, as a hero by people that don't.

asdfjkl wrote:As the new Lennox Lewis, as a pussy by people that know what they are talking about, as a hero by people that don't.

You're saying Lennox Lewis is a pussy? What'd you want him to do completely blind Vitali's eye?

gilgamesh wrote:

asdfjkl wrote:As the new Lennox Lewis, as a pussy by people that know what they are talking about, as a hero by people that don't.

You're saying Lennox Lewis is a pussy? What'd you want him to do completely blind Vitali's eye?

I wanted him to have the guts to offer him a serious rematch.

world ranked wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'd rate him slightly greater than winky and mab significantly greater than ward.

I came here to post the same thing.

That because yall rate Naz so high. Why I don't know Barrera is great no question but never dominating whole division like Ward did. In even in Ward lose never got knockout and lose to inferior fighters. Barrera clearly did more for the sport but Ward was dominate and was the better overall fighter imo.

He dominated one weight class. One. And once he got to the mountain top in 2011, he only fought twice more at the weight over a two year period. Never granted a single rematch to anyone. What makes the great "great" is that they tend to stay active and keep fighting guys and beating them. Sometimes great fighters lose to lesser men because the overall grind of being a great fighter is tough as hell. Ward consistently fought good fighters for a period of only three years, then inconsistently fought, then entirely stopped fighting for a year and a half.

Ward is a cash cow. He wants to make as much money as possible, fighting as little as possible.

I will remember him as dirty, disgusting and uncharismatic.

Crease wrote:Ward is a cash cow. He wants to make as much money as possible, fighting as little as possible.

Better than the alternative.

bigbaddaddydanny wrote:I will remember him as dirty, disgusting and uncharismatic.

You sound like a jilted girlfriend.

zorndeslammes wrote:

world ranked wrote:

Riddick Blowe wrote:
I came here to post the same thing.

That because yall rate Naz so high. Why I don't know Barrera is great no question but never dominating whole division like Ward did. In even in Ward lose never got knockout and lose to inferior fighters. Barrera clearly did more for the sport but Ward was dominate and was the better overall fighter imo.

He dominated one weight class. One. And once he got to the mountain top in 2011, he only fought twice more at the weight over a two year period. Never granted a single rematch to anyone. What makes the great "great" is that they tend to stay active and keep fighting guys and beating them. Sometimes great fighters lose to lesser men because the overall grind of being a great fighter is tough as hell. Ward consistently fought good fighters for a period of only three years, then inconsistently fought, then entirely stopped fighting for a year and a half.

How many guys dominate one weight class. Rematches if you beat a guy clearly move on though I do think he should rematch Kovalev.
Not many others worth a rematch. His three and a half years run was great and much better than Naz or most guys. Just because your wasn't active for a period of time in your career doesn't diminish what your resume says.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Top 3 or 4 super middle.

I think Jones comes top fairly clearly, Calzaghe and Ward is really close. Ward has the edge on resume at 168 over Calzaghe but I think that Joe would just have outworked Ward in an ugly one.

I really can't think of another guy who could compare to those three at 168.

My rankings are always based on which fighter would beat which on their best day and not just achievements.

I cant see Ward ever beating Thomas Hearns at 168 not even a shot Hearns. Hearns would outbox him the way he did Hill.

Jones jnr and the Toney who beat Barkley and Williams also best him.

Nigel Benn around 1993 would be a very hard fight for Ward.

Calzaghe would beat him too. Sven Ottke would test him.

in your imagination.