Is Manny Pacquiao the best boxer ever?

[Kalan]

No one is questioning that what Manny accomplished is incredible - it is. It's just that boxing has a long history and there are many others who have done things even more incredible. Personally, I don't put too much weight into the number of divisions climbed - some boxers turn pro as skinny teenagers and grow with time, which means they end up competing in more divisions - that doesn't necessarily make them better or greater than someone who turned pro as a fully developed adult who never went up in weight. For me, his wins over Barrera, Morales and Marquez are the most impressive thing about his career, closely followed by his wins over Oscar, Hatton, Cotto and Margarito before his abilities started to fade.

jezza, you are again downsizing pacs achievemants saying you dont put much into it pac climbing so much divisions cause he started yougn skinny and put on weight. thats downsizing achievemants. if it was so easy to start boxing skinny young age and climb 12 divisions than why is pac and arguably langford the only 2 boxers in the 120+ years of boxing history the only ones who did it.

boxing with the queensbury rules exists since around 1860. so from 1860 till today 2017, only about a handful of boxers went up around 10-12 divisions.

so in 157 years only pacquiao, langford and maybe some 1-2 other boxers i dont know of achieved climbing 12 divisions, while still being succesful and you arent impressed by that? it is arguably the biggest achievemant a boxer ever had.

I'm not saying that climbing 12 divisions is a common or an easy thing to do - it clearly isn't. That said, it is exaggerated by the sheer number of closely-spaced weight divisions at lower weights and the relatively small number of world class boxers competing in them. I am impressed by it, no question, but I don't think it's the most impressive achievement in boxing's history. I'm more impressed with great boxers who fight other great boxers when they are both in their prime - something we don't see enough of these days.

For the record, I would say Henry Armstrong simultaneously holding world titles at featherweight, lightweight and welterweight (not to mention having a draw in a fight for the middleweight title) is significantly more impressive than anything Manny has done.

First of all, Manny didn't come close to winning the Floyd fight.. He came into the fight with a torn rotator cuff, which he hid from the fans and media for several weeks.. Secondly, in reference to De La Hoya, Cotto, and Canelo winning versions of the Middleweight Title.. Oscar won by flagrant robbery and when he met a real Middleweight Champ he was knocked out.. Cotto fought a Sergio Martinez who had wrecked knees and a 39-year-old body that collapsed.. Canelo stepped in front of Triple-G to get the shot at Cotto.. In fact Martinez, Cotto, and Canelo all had Golovkin as their mandatory but were given "exceptions" by the WBC, a very corrupt organization.

[caldo2025]

I've been and continue to be a Manny guy. He's brought me great excitement over the years and in my mind, he's one of my favorite boxers of all time. But, I can't call him the best ever or put him in the argument between the top 10 boxers all time. I just can't do it. Yet, i should say. Because he could sign on to fight Terrance Crawford at the end of the year and what happens if he wins that fight? What if he defeats Thurman if not TC? Canelo? Manny has one more big fight to make before he hangs them up and he could definitely add to his legacy with a significant win like the above names.

But if not and his best is behind him, I call him one of the best lightweights in history but I can't call him THE best boxer ever. I'd have a hard time fitting him in the top 10. The GOAT discussion would be over had Floyd fought everyone because I think that he would have won and he's the best of all time but I can't give that title to someone that avoided so many fighters in their prime. But Floyd's the best i've ever seen, i can't be a prick and deny my eyes just because i dislike the guy so much.

so you think had floyd faced everyone he would have won? so floyd beat prime paul williams, prime antonio margarito, prime kostya tszyu and prime manny pacquiao, who were all available during 2008 floyds 2 year vacation? except kostya, who was king of super lightweight division when floyd was busy boxing bruseles, ndou etc.

but you right on that one, had floyd faced and beat pac, marga, paul, tszyu than i would have had no problem saying "floyd has the best record i have ever seen, so just based on record floyd #1 ever" i mean beating prime pac, beating canelo, beating all those guys mentioned combined with his overall skills is remarkable.

Yes. I think that Floyd defeats all of the fighters you mentioned above unfortunately Jip. But he never fought them so i'm not going to sit here and give Floyd credit for it. This, in my opinion, is the main reason that i can't call Floyd one of the greats. Greats have to prove it inside the ring. The greats went out of their way to fight the guys they needed to in order to determine who was the best in their era. One can easily pick apart the brand names on Floyd's resume of victims. He was very strategic with the way he accumulated these wins over the bigger names like ODH and Manny, fighting them well past their primes. I remember scratching my head how Floyd went many years without having to fight the number one contender for his belt. Imagine that? No, Floyd's not great.

The worst part is that if Floyd had taken these fights, we would have seen more of what Floyd could do. Like SRL behind on the cards against Tommy gutting out a KO in dramatic fashion. Every Floyd fight was carbon copy of the last one. He sat behind his shoulder for 6 rounds fighting the last 10 seconds of every round. 7-10, he turns up a little more careful pressure...coast 11-12. I would have loved to see Floyd go for a KO once in a while instead of playing it so darn safe.

So Floyd made the most money ever and didn't take any damage doing it so good for him. He chose money & his health over greatness. I'm not going to fault him for it but i'm also not going to give him credit he doesn't deserve. No Floyd, go spend you money but you can not be called great or the greatest.

[Jip]

I've been and continue to be a Manny guy. He's brought me great excitement over the years and in my mind, he's one of my favorite boxers of all time. But, I can't call him the best ever or put him in the argument between the top 10 boxers all time. I just can't do it. Yet, i should say. Because he could sign on to fight Terrance Crawford at the end of the year and what happens if he wins that fight? What if he defeats Thurman if not TC? Canelo? Manny has one more big fight to make before he hangs them up and he could definitely add to his legacy with a significant win like the above names.

But if not and his best is behind him, I call him one of the best lightweights in history but I can't call him THE best boxer ever. I'd have a hard time fitting him in the top 10. The GOAT discussion would be over had Floyd fought everyone because I think that he would have won and he's the best of all time but I can't give that title to someone that avoided so many fighters in their prime. But Floyd's the best i've ever seen, i can't be a prick and deny my eyes just because i dislike the guy so much.

so you think had floyd faced everyone he would have won? so floyd beat prime paul williams, prime antonio margarito, prime kostya tszyu and prime manny pacquiao, who were all available during 2008 floyds 2 year vacation? except kostya, who was king of super lightweight division when floyd was busy boxing bruseles, ndou etc.

but you right on that one, had floyd faced and beat pac, marga, paul, tszyu than i would have had no problem saying "floyd has the best record i have ever seen, so just based on record floyd #1 ever" i mean beating prime pac, beating canelo, beating all those guys mentioned combined with his overall skills is remarkable.

Yes. I think that Floyd defeats all of the fighters you mentioned above unfortunately Jip. But he never fought them so i'm not going to sit here and give Floyd credit for it. This, in my opinion, is the main reason that i can't call Floyd one of the greats. Greats have to prove it inside the ring. The greats went out of their way to fight the guys they needed to in order to determine who was the best in their era. One can easily pick apart the brand names on Floyd's resume of victims. He was very strategic with the way he accumulated these wins over the bigger names like ODH and Manny, fighting them well past their primes. I remember scratching my head how Floyd went many years without having to fight the number one contender for his belt. Imagine that? No, Floyd's not great.

The worst part is that if Floyd had taken these fights, we would have seen more of what Floyd could do. Like SRL behind on the cards against Tommy gutting out a KO in dramatic fashion. Every Floyd fight was carbon copy of the last one. He sat behind his shoulder for 6 rounds fighting the last 10 seconds of every round. 7-10, he turns up a little more careful pressure...coast 11-12. I would have loved to see Floyd go for a KO once in a while instead of playing it so darn safe.

So Floyd made the most money ever and didn't take any damage doing it so good for him. He chose money & his health over greatness. I'm not going to fault him for it but i'm also not going to give him credit he doesn't deserve. No Floyd, go spend you money but you can not be called great or the greatest.

good post, i like the way you wrote it down and its true.

i mean at least he fought and outclassed a prime canelo. i know prime canelo is no prime trinidad or prime hoya, but beating prime canelo they way he did was impressiv although it was boring. around this time my respect level for lara went up high, cause he felt lara beat canelo as good and as athletic as floyd did, but obvious a non english speaking cuban wont get as much credit by jduges as an american multi millionere famous name.

mayweather had tough tough problems even during his prime against strong, big, hard hitting opponents. against maidana he was past prime and maidana realy bruised him up, against castillo he was prime and lost the first fight. so for ones you saw how floyd reacts when he knew he was behind on scorecards, i remember him stressing a bit and punching, also holding more, this is what i remember. in the maidana fight, it was only holding hehe. but based on castillo and maidana i can evision floyd prime or past prime having lots of trouble against bigger and even more heavier puncher like prime margarito. but maybe he would have outclassed him like corrales, moving and stinging punches all day, fast and inside outside. who knows, now its over. one thing is for sure. floyd went up in weight, but he did slowly slowly, he wanted no part of tszyu, young judah and certainly 0 part when welterweight division was red hot with trinidad, hoya and mosley. god, would a great it would have been, all prime mayweather and the 3 guys are mentioned....

[caldo2025]

so you think had floyd faced everyone he would have won? so floyd beat prime paul williams, prime antonio margarito, prime kostya tszyu and prime manny pacquiao, who were all available during 2008 floyds 2 year vacation? except kostya, who was king of super lightweight division when floyd was busy boxing bruseles, ndou etc.

but you right on that one, had floyd faced and beat pac, marga, paul, tszyu than i would have had no problem saying "floyd has the best record i have ever seen, so just based on record floyd #1 ever" i mean beating prime pac, beating canelo, beating all those guys mentioned combined with his overall skills is remarkable.

Yes. I think that Floyd defeats all of the fighters you mentioned above unfortunately Jip. But he never fought them so i'm not going to sit here and give Floyd credit for it. This, in my opinion, is the main reason that i can't call Floyd one of the greats. Greats have to prove it inside the ring. The greats went out of their way to fight the guys they needed to in order to determine who was the best in their era. One can easily pick apart the brand names on Floyd's resume of victims. He was very strategic with the way he accumulated these wins over the bigger names like ODH and Manny, fighting them well past their primes. I remember scratching my head how Floyd went many years without having to fight the number one contender for his belt. Imagine that? No, Floyd's not great.

The worst part is that if Floyd had taken these fights, we would have seen more of what Floyd could do. Like SRL behind on the cards against Tommy gutting out a KO in dramatic fashion. Every Floyd fight was carbon copy of the last one. He sat behind his shoulder for 6 rounds fighting the last 10 seconds of every round. 7-10, he turns up a little more careful pressure...coast 11-12. I would have loved to see Floyd go for a KO once in a while instead of playing it so darn safe.

So Floyd made the most money ever and didn't take any damage doing it so good for him. He chose money & his health over greatness. I'm not going to fault him for it but i'm also not going to give him credit he doesn't deserve. No Floyd, go spend you money but you can not be called great or the greatest.

good post, i like the way you wrote it down and its true.

i mean at least he fought and outclassed a prime canelo. i know prime canelo is no prime trinidad or prime hoya, but beating prime canelo they way he did was impressiv although it was boring. around this time my respect level for lara went up high, cause he felt lara beat canelo as good and as athletic as floyd did, but obvious a non english speaking cuban wont get as much credit by jduges as an american multi millionere famous name.

mayweather had tough tough problems even during his prime against strong, big, hard hitting opponents. against maidana he was past prime and maidana realy bruised him up, against castillo he was prime and lost the first fight. so for ones you saw how floyd reacts when he knew he was behind on scorecards, i remember him stressing a bit and punching, also holding more, this is what i remember. in the maidana fight, it was only holding hehe. but based on castillo and maidana i can evision floyd prime or past prime having lots of trouble against bigger and even more heavier puncher like prime margarito. but maybe he would have outclassed him like corrales, moving and stinging punches all day, fast and inside outside. who knows, now its over. one thing is for sure. floyd went up in weight, but he did slowly slowly, he wanted no part of tszyu, young judah and certainly 0 part when welterweight division was red hot with trinidad, hoya and mosley. god, would a great it would have been, all prime mayweather and the 3 guys are mentioned....

Exactly Jip. Every single guy you mentioned above aside from Castillo (who i feel was VERY overrated) has a "but" attached to them. But he was past his prime....etc. And you are exactly right. For instance, I do feel that Floyd should get more credit for defeating Canelo the way that he did but the Canelo NOW is not even remotely close to the Canelo that Floyd defeated in terms of ability. The way i feel about Canelo right now, I honestly think that he might be the top P4P fighter in the world. I mean, he's THAT good. Floyd picked him off before the kid had a chance to harness his skills. He was 21 for godsake I believe. Golden Boy's FIRST of many errors with Canelo. They should have never taken that fight.

So here we are at the end of Floyd's career having to IMAGINE how Floyd would have fared against top fighters in his era that were in their prime. That says it all. We shouldn't have to imagine it or predict what could have happened because we should have SEEN IT. It's not like Wlad who could have been the best heavyweight ever but didn't have the guys in his era around to show us how good he was. Floyd had plenty of talent consistently in his division and he chose not to fight them until they were slipping or too young. That says it all. Good discussion buddy. You are right on.

[man]

Guys like Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford and Charles achieved a lot more - not in terms of the number of weight classes, but in terms of the number of great fighters they shared the ring with and often defeated. Looking more recently, I'd put Duran and Leonard clearly ahead of Manny as well.

i think in fifty years from now, manny
is in everyone's p4p top ten of all time,
unlike floyd.

it is not only that he moved up in weight,
but the way he handled supposedly superior
opposition.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Guys like Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford and Charles achieved a lot more - not in terms of the number of weight classes, but in terms of the number of great fighters they shared the ring with and often defeated. Looking more recently, I'd put Duran and Leonard clearly ahead of Manny as well.

i think in fifty years from now, manny
is in everyone's p4p top ten of all time,
unlike floyd.

it is not only that he moved up in weight,
but the way he handled supposedly superior
opposition.

Floyd will be much better received in 50 years

[gilgamesh]

Guys like Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford and Charles achieved a lot more - not in terms of the number of weight classes, but in terms of the number of great fighters they shared the ring with and often defeated. Looking more recently, I'd put Duran and Leonard clearly ahead of Manny as well.

i think in fifty years from now, manny
is in everyone's p4p top ten of all time,
unlike floyd.

it is not only that he moved up in weight,
but the way he handled supposedly superior
opposition.

Why would the passage of time make people forget you weren't the best of your own era?

I don't expect Manny or Floyd will ever appear on too many all time Top 10 P4P lists, if you're talking Top 30 or 40 yeah they belong. Top 10? Nah

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Guys like Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Langford and Charles achieved a lot more - not in terms of the number of weight classes, but in terms of the number of great fighters they shared the ring with and often defeated. Looking more recently, I'd put Duran and Leonard clearly ahead of Manny as well.

i think in fifty years from now, manny
is in everyone's p4p top ten of all time,
unlike floyd.

it is not only that he moved up in weight,
but the way he handled supposedly superior
opposition.

Why would the passage of time make people forget you weren't the best of your own era?

I don't expect Manny or Floyd will ever appear on too many all time Top 10 P4P lists, if you're talking Top 30 or 40 yeah they belong. Top 10? Nah

In 50 years, when Floyd's self induced hate is gone, knowledgeable fans will acknowledge his achievements. The far greater percentage of fans will just look at the names and results like kalan does and his resume will be drooled on.

[gilgamesh]

i think in fifty years from now, manny
is in everyone's p4p top ten of all time,
unlike floyd.

it is not only that he moved up in weight,
but the way he handled supposedly superior
opposition.

Why would the passage of time make people forget you weren't the best of your own era?

I don't expect Manny or Floyd will ever appear on too many all time Top 10 P4P lists, if you're talking Top 30 or 40 yeah they belong. Top 10? Nah

In 50 years, when Floyd's self induced hate is gone, knowledgeable fans will acknowledge his achievements. The far greater percentage of fans will just look at the names and results like kalan does and his resume will be drooled on.

I mean even now I'd have no issue with somebody having Mayweather in their Top 20 or Top 25 P4P of all time, but I don't know if too many would see him Top 10 all time. Maybe I'm wrong.

[phillykid]

Yeah, somewhere in the top 30 or 40's is where i'd place both Floyd and Manny as well.

[Nile4000]

Damn good fighter. But, honesty, no.