BoxRec

After defeating a senior citizen with a glass jaw in 11 rounds (and only getting decked once) for his biggest win he has obviously proved his greatness.

Your attempt at sarcasm utterly failed… That’s like saying Clay proved himself worthy of fighting Liston after 19 fights by getting decked by a 185-pound glass jawed bleeder who can’t box a lick and had been beaten and knocked out umpteen times.

Unlike Cooper, Wladimir hadn’t been knocked out for over 13 years – or since Emmanuel Steward taught him a stance, proper footwork, and how to slip punches. Joshua had 1/5th the amateur an pro experience and probably beat a guy who was fairly close to the ultimate Wladimir Klitschko. WK didn’t fight his age and looked as sharp as ever with his movement, offense, and ATG punching power. The raw kid with 18 fights scored the 1st knockdown, the last knockdown, and one in between – never showing a hair of quit. And Wlad has 24 years to go before becoming a senior citizen. Mayweather is only a year younger.

Kalan wrote:Your attempt at sarcasm utterly failed… That’s like saying Clay proved himself worthy of fighting Liston after 19 fights by getting decked by a 185-pound glass jawed bleeder who can’t box a lick and had been beaten and knocked out umpteen times.

Unlike Cooper, Wladimir hadn’t been knocked out for over 13 years – or since Emmanuel Steward taught him a stance, proper footwork, and how to slip punches. Joshua had 1/5th the amateur an pro experience and probably beat a guy who was fairly close to the ultimate Wladimir Klitschko. WK didn’t fight his age and looked as sharp as ever with his movement, offense, and ATG punching power. The raw kid with 18 fights scored the 1st knockdown, the last knockdown, and one in between – never showing a hair of quit. And Wlad has 24 years to go before becoming a senior citizen. Mayweather is only a year younger.

Kalan.....newsflash......knock downs can happen.......the news isn't that Cooper knocked Clay down....the news is that Clay got up and beat him silly. Did Liston ever get off the canvas to win a fight? He couldn't even get up when he still probably had it him to take some more punishment....he just took the easy way out. Ever see Moore vs Durelle? You think the story is about Archie getting knocked down? IF so you qualify as a nincompoop. (A german word used to describe someone who's assessment skills often fall short of the mark.) So I'm not calling you a name, just assigning a title.


If that mattered, I guess this fella is a bum....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecildf5I59I

BoxBuzz wrote:Kalan.....newsflash......knock downs can happen Did Liston ever get off the canvas to win a fight? He couldn't even get up when he still probably had it him to take some more punishment....he just took the easy way out.

I don't know how dim witted you can get... VERY in the case of BuzzBox... The poor schmuck tires hard to make new records every day.

Liston got up and resumed fighting you ignorant dipstick... He easily slipped all of Ali’s follow up shots and was trying to lure Ali in to ice him with a big counter shot.. He was capable of doing that but Walcott stopped the fight for no reason in the world. The only official who can count a boxer out officially is the referee. His count supersedes the timekeeper’s as proven by Tyson-Douglas. Liston got screwed. Ali tried hard to get a DQ loss by doing everything but obey the referee’s commands to go to a neutral corner.

The rules state that the count is suspended if a boxer doesn’t go to a neutral corner and if he comes out of the corner the count stops until he goes back to the corner. The way the commission got around that was to declare Liston was never floored legitimately and faked the knockdown. His license was suspended in all 50 states. If you think that was just you deserve a pitchfork up your rear end. At least one of the prongs. The other 3? ... I don’t care where they go.

Kalan wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Jimmy Young was dropped and stopped a lot.

Young was never knocked down except in his loss as a novice to Shavers in their first fight.

Kalan wrote: I only deal with facts and cold analysis based on facts.

Didn't AJ go life and death with an old, inactive Wlad who was coming off a defeat?

Clearly he must be the GOAT

At a similar point in his career Lennox Lewis struggled with Frank Bruno. It would be a bit hypocritical if people hold the Wlad fight against Joshua yet give Lewis a pass for the Bruno debacle. In both cases they came back to win by devastating kayo.

Cojimar 1946 wrote:At a similar point in his career Lennox Lewis struggled with Frank Bruno. It would be a bit hypocritical if people hold the Wlad fight against Joshua yet give Lewis a pass for the Bruno debacle. In both cases they came back to win by devastating kayo.

Correct... and Lewis has those two 1-punch KO losses... If Joshua ever suffers a KO loss to a massive underdog like Louis, Tyson, Wladimir, and Lewis all did, ALL the critics will write him off instantly. If you dare mention the upset losses suffered by legends of the sport people call you a hater -- and they point out that Whyte caught AJ with a big shot -- that Klitschko knocked Joshua down and hit him with the kitchen sink for 2 rounds.. AJ came through all that -- fought very warily through the 7th where he told Klitschko, "You have to finish me off in this round. If I survive I'm going to get you" Reverse Psychology and It worked.

Wladimir said, "He said a lot of things. I wasn't listening. I was trying to knock him out" But I think he heard some of it despite himself.

Can we wait two more years before replying to a thread like this?

We don't have to... AJ has already beaten an ATG Heavyweight... That's more than Wladimir Klitschko has done because when Wlad was a youngster all the ATG Heavyweights---such as Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis, EVERYONE seemed to be an ATG Heavyweight back then, ass-beaten or not---refused to fight him.

mate I'm laughing at these foolish posts from these other posters they are forgetting in ali s day they fought 15 rounds not 10 or 12 that's why big men like terrel, Williams,who were Joshua's height , didn't bulk up like a weightlifter like joshua because they knew they couldn't last that 15 rounds at that weight. and they were already too slow for ali and the even smaller guys, that's why super heavies didn't arrive till late 80s early 90s in other words if ali only had to go 12 rounds with joshua he would have been on his toes making himself 6ft5 jabbing Joshua's head off all night at the speed of a middleweight (prime of course)or joshua if fighting 15 rounds would have to slim down to get any where near ali just like Williams or tyrell and become an athletic 17stoner that's why there were no Joshua's , lewis , Bowes ECT and they couldn't knock Holyfield out a blown up cruiser weight and you can't tell me joshua can hit any harder than Lewis or bowe he can't even hit harder than tyson and he's 5ft11 this size thing is a laugh and I havent even talked about desire , skill, chin, please some one come back and tell I'm wrong and why. Without saying the same thing that joshua has this unparralled power the likes we've never seen before lol

So Tyson Fury outpoints KLITSCHKO... And people say KLITSCHKO was disinterested, didn't try, was unmotivated, etc... Fast forward two years of no fights, injuries, etc. and Anthony Joshua nearly loses to KLITSCHKO and only won because KLITSCHKO went back to being Mr Rogers in the ring rather than finishing his man... And all of a sudden KLITSCHKO is this all time great when everyone before said he wasn't his brothers equal, and automatically Joshua is an all time great who'd dismantle Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Muhammad Ali (because, as his fanboys insist all he's got to do is land one punch, as if he's Earnie Shavers 2.0) but.... Didn't Klitschko always have an iffy chin? Didn't Samuel Peter drop him three times? Didn't Corrie Sanders knock him out inside of two rounds?

My point is you can't have it both ways, and it's certainly too damn early to ask such questions... If Fury out pointed an already old Klitschko, on his way out, then Joshua's claim to fame is nearly getting poleaxed by a surely ancient ex champion... It'd be like Joe Louis going life and death with Jack Sharkey before knocking him out. No, real elites, blow out old men. Period. Lennox Lewis at his worst (Vitali Klitschko) would have dribbled Joshua like a basketball.

HomicideHenry wrote:So Tyson Fury outpoints KLITSCHKO... And people say KLITSCHKO was disinterested, didn't try, was unmotivated, etc... Fast forward two years of no fights, injuries, etc. and Anthony Joshua nearly loses to KLITSCHKO and only won because KLITSCHKO went back to being Mr Rogers in the ring rather than finishing his man... And all of a sudden KLITSCHKO is this all time great when everyone before said he wasn't his brothers equal, and automatically Joshua is an all time great who'd dismantle Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis and Muhammad Ali (because, as his fanboys insist all he's got to do is land one punch, as if he's Earnie Shavers 2.0) but.... Didn't Klitschko always have an iffy chin? Didn't Samuel Peter drop him three times? Didn't Corrie Sanders knock him out inside of two rounds?

My point is you can't have it both ways, and it's certainly too damn early to ask such questions... If Fury out pointed an already old Klitschko, on his way out, then Joshua's claim to fame is nearly getting poleaxed by a surely ancient ex champion... It'd be like Joe Louis going life and death with Jack Sharkey before knocking him out. No, real elites, blow out old men. Period. Lennox Lewis at his worst (Vitali Klitschko) would have dribbled Joshua like a basketball.

+1
Totally agreed.

Joshua did not win the match. Wlad "lost" it. Just hand it to him.
The outcome was Wlad's "initiative". His choosing.

A 41 old chinny guy. Said to be "İn the best shape of his life"..Against a 27 years old phsically prime bodybuilder who is literally "in the best shape of his life".
So when the "best shape's" abbreviate each other, there only left a 27 and a 41 year old.
And joshua barely survived. Unlike Brewster, Sanders and Puritty :)

Joshua is "no joke".
But he's a roid bodybuilder with decent boxing skills(and an abject stamina) who can punch with moderate chin at best, waiting to be nailed.
He is no better than Wlad; either in the chin or the punching department.

Lewis never seemed that much helpless, desperate or exhausted is his entire career as Joshua displayed against Wlad.
İbeabuchi would've salughtered him 9 out of 10 times.

An ATG claim about him is "a joke" for that matter. At this point.
A survival mode success against a 41 year old guy.
That's all Joshua has at this time.

elmersalsa wrote:How good is Anthony Joshua? We all know we got a poster in this forum that is crazy and hyped about him.

How does Joshua does prime versus prime vs these guys:
George Foreman
Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis

I fail to see the methods, weapons, defensive strengths, or general talents the above had which could secure a win over somebody like Joshua.

Why are the Klitschkos not on the list??? ... They would be favored to beat some of the above.. How many times did Marciano and Foreman successfully defend their Heavyweight Titles in their careers??? 6 X each.. Joshua is going for is 4th defense and he's highly favored to win quickly. How many appropriate challengers did Foreman beat? The answer is 1 -- it was Norton... Lewis ate punches like Norton did.. He was just a lot bigger, stronger, and not as chinny and he could absorb hard shots -- so he didn't get knocked out as much.. He'd do a Foreman like job on Norton and a Jimmy Young style job on Foreman.

So I have a question.. All the above have a number of losses -- except for Marciano who didn't fight anyone good who was prime -- and every challenger he fought was very small.. What if Joshua lost to somebody by tremendous upset??? ... Foreman, Louis, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, and Frazier ALL lost in substantial upsets... Would a modern day Heavyweight boxer be allowed to lose a fight by major upset and still be considered an ATG??? ... Or is that just for Golden Oldies???

It's not looking good for him by your own standard. He has hit the deck once already. I'm afraid the future looks grim for him. Let's just hope he can get by that other undefeated champion that he's going to have to topple. I'm pretty sure he can do it, but then again, there's that pesky knockdown he has to contend with.

Here's a little education for you BuzzBox... Max Schmeling knocked Louis down with a rippling right.. He kept him on the hook and kept tagging him periodically and heavily.. knocking Joe down again and then knocked him flat out for the 10-count.. That's was Joe Louis's 25th fight so he was no greenhorn.

Lewis wasn't kept on the hook... Huge underdogs caught LL on the chin solid and powerfully... Upset L's can take a split second -- whizzzzz BOOM! Ovah!!

10 to 1 underdog Ken Norton hooked Ali and shattered his jaw.. Wasn't a real big punch, but with Ali flapping his yap the way he usually did it had a lot of consequences. One was Ali had to have his mouth wired shut for a long stretch.. And another was another L on his record..

Foreman fought a small Heavyweight with a very unimpressive record.. But the guy out-boxed George and almost stretched him.. Caulk up another L for GF

Holmes was the greatest master boxer of the 70's and 80's. You'd figure he could out-box a Light Heavyweight right? ... Caulk up a couple L's for Larry.

Frazier couldn't box, but he could punch... Just not as hard as George Foreman, or with both hands... Caulk up a couple L's for Smokin' Joe.

Tyson was ridiculed for fighting a 2nd rater like Buster Douglas... The 2nd rater fought like a top notcher, pounding Tyson relentlessly.. An L is recorded.

The difference between Joshua and the rest of the ATG's is -- no one's laid an L on AJ... ATG Wlad really tried his best...but he kept AJ's remarkable 100% KO ratio alive by suffering the agony of defeat under an intense 11th round barrage... Wlad had a provision for a rematch. He'd been hurt enough.

Kalan wrote:Here's a little education for you BuzzBox... Max Schmeling knocked Louis down with a rippling right.. He kept him on the hook and kept tagging him periodically and heavily.. knocking Joe down again and then knocked him flat out for the 10-count.. That's was Joe Louis's 25th fight so he was no greenhorn.

Lewis wasn't kept on the hook... Huge underdogs caught LL on the chin solid and powerfully... Upset L's can take a split second -- whizzzzz BOOM! Ovah!!

10 to 1 underdog Ken Norton hooked Ali and shattered his jaw.. Wasn't a real big punch, but with Ali flapping his yap the way he usually did it had a lot of consequences. One was Ali had to have his mouth wired shut for a long stretch.. And another was another L on his record..

Foreman fought a small Heavyweight with a very unimpressive record.. But the guy out-boxed George and almost stretched him.. Caulk up another L for GF

Holmes was the greatest master boxer of the 70's and 80's. You'd figure he could out-box a Light Heavyweight right? ... Caulk up a couple L's for Larry.

Frazier couldn't box, but he could punch... Just not as hard as George Foreman, or with both hands... Caulk up a couple L's for Smokin' Joe.

Tyson was ridiculed for fighting a 2nd rater like Buster Douglas... The 2nd rater fought like a top notcher, pounding Tyson relentlessly.. An L is recorded.

The difference between Joshua and the rest of the ATG's is -- no one's laid an L on AJ... ATG Wlad really tried his best...but he kept AJ's remarkable 100% KO ratio alive by suffering the agony of defeat under an intense 11th round barrage... Wlad had a provision for a rematch. He'd been hurt enough.

Do yourself a favour kalan, have a good sleep, get some fresh air, get away from boxing and then come back with your head screwed on

My head is always screwed on right...unlike yours. I just came back from a 2-hour workout. Daily weight training is a hobby of mine. So is yard work in the fresh air and sunshine -- try it sometime.. Cooking is another hobby and I read tons.. Of course I'm a Boxing fan, and not just of the old timers. Some of the best fighters in history are currently active if you keep up.. Joshua's cutting edge workouts are all over Youtube.

I'm convinced kalan is a troll

Henry....I don't think he's any more of a troll than you or I.

He's just a man with a set of opinions, that often breaks from the crowd.

And he may not always be right....but he is seldom in doubt.

Kalan wrote:Here's a little education for you BuzzBox... Max Schmeling knocked Louis down with a rippling right.. He kept him on the hook and kept tagging him periodically and heavily.. knocking Joe down again and then knocked him flat out for the 10-count.. That's was Joe Louis's 25th fight so he was no greenhorn.

Lewis wasn't kept on the hook... Huge underdogs caught LL on the chin solid and powerfully... Upset L's can take a split second -- whizzzzz BOOM! Ovah!!

10 to 1 underdog Ken Norton hooked Ali and shattered his jaw.. Wasn't a real big punch, but with Ali flapping his yap the way he usually did it had a lot of consequences. One was Ali had to have his mouth wired shut for a long stretch.. And another was another L on his record..

Foreman fought a small Heavyweight with a very unimpressive record.. But the guy out-boxed George and almost stretched him.. Caulk up another L for GF

Holmes was the greatest master boxer of the 70's and 80's. You'd figure he could out-box a Light Heavyweight right? ... Caulk up a couple L's for Larry.

Frazier couldn't box, but he could punch... Just not as hard as George Foreman, or with both hands... Caulk up a couple L's for Smokin' Joe.

Tyson was ridiculed for fighting a 2nd rater like Buster Douglas... The 2nd rater fought like a top notcher, pounding Tyson relentlessly.. An L is recorded.

The difference between Joshua and the rest of the ATG's is -- no one's laid an L on AJ... ATG Wlad really tried his best...but he kept AJ's remarkable 100% KO ratio alive by suffering the agony of defeat under an intense 11th round barrage... Wlad had a provision for a rematch. He'd been hurt enough.

None of this changes the fact that Joshua has hit the deck. Which is all I said. And the reason I said it, is because in other cases you have alluded that you believe that such a moment is sentinel in a boxers career.

Now....I think that belief/opinion is a plate of tripe, but I respect that you believe it. But you don't seem to apply this opinion to your newest and bestest personal fav.


Just sayin'.......

golden oldie wrote:Knockdowns only count as far as Kolon is concerned if they occur to fighters he believes he has a right to denigrate. Particularly if those fighters are named either Ali, or Robinson.

The div.

It does seem so. And often times I do believe he has good assessment skills....and I'm sincere about that....he's like a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde of Boxing analysis.

I admit I have my favorites, and sometimes it brings me to focus on certain events.....for example, I will always believe that Frazier was in trouble in his second fight with Ali and the Ref put an early end to a round for "too much hitting" on Ali's part. I say it with humor.... and I also believe it. However, there are good assessors that look at that clip and say "No, Frazier was not put off by it", and the early end of the round was more likely "pure happenstance". I listen, respect the opinion, and differ with it.

So....I will take time to wrestle with a different opinion...(and in that case it is between two of my favorite fighters)....and yes I'm a bit more of a fan of Ali's....so....the question is....am I looking through biased eyes?

Many say yes I am.. so I listen, and move on. But I will offer up that I have considered other viewpoints respect them, and like I say....I agree to disagree.


In Kalan's case he is capable of making a very good point and setting the context.... and then often abandons that same context when the same set of circumstances works against one of his favorites. Personally I've never seen a fella with as good and as bad a set of boxing assessment skills. That's my opinion.

His opinion appears to be, that I don't know squat about boxing....and am not showing signs that I ever will.

Anyone who cares, can consider that info, and determine for themselves what kind/sorta works for them. lol.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Kalan wrote:Here's a little education for you BuzzBox... Max Schmeling knocked Louis down with a rippling right.. He kept him on the hook and kept tagging him periodically and heavily.. knocking Joe down again and then knocked him flat out for the 10-count.. That's was Joe Louis's 25th fight so he was no greenhorn.

Lewis wasn't kept on the hook... Huge underdogs caught LL on the chin solid and powerfully... Upset L's can take a split second -- whizzzzz BOOM! Ovah!!

10 to 1 underdog Ken Norton hooked Ali and shattered his jaw.. Wasn't a real big punch, but with Ali flapping his yap the way he usually did it had a lot of consequences. One was Ali had to have his mouth wired shut for a long stretch.. And another was another L on his record..

Foreman fought a small Heavyweight with a very unimpressive record.. But the guy out-boxed George and almost stretched him.. Caulk up another L for GF

Holmes was the greatest master boxer of the 70's and 80's. You'd figure he could out-box a Light Heavyweight right? ... Caulk up a couple L's for Larry.

Frazier couldn't box, but he could punch... Just not as hard as George Foreman, or with both hands... Caulk up a couple L's for Smokin' Joe.

Tyson was ridiculed for fighting a 2nd rater like Buster Douglas... The 2nd rater fought like a top notcher, pounding Tyson relentlessly.. An L is recorded.

The difference between Joshua and the rest of the ATG's is -- no one's laid an L on AJ... ATG Wlad really tried his best...but he kept AJ's remarkable 100% KO ratio alive by suffering the agony of defeat under an intense 11th round barrage... Wlad had a provision for a rematch. He'd been hurt enough.

None of this changes the fact that Joshua has hit the deck. Which is all I said. And the reason I said it, is because in other cases you have alluded that you believe that such a moment is sentinel in a boxers career.

Now....I think that belief/opinion is a plate of tripe, but I respect that you believe it. But you don't seem to apply this opinion to your newest and bestest personal fav.

Just sayin'.......

What it might change -- if the brain is shifted into gear and emotional nostalgia put aside -- is the minds of people who think former champs who suffered many knockdowns and losses to massive and mediocre underdogs by KO -- could do a thing to Joshua, but get flattened by him...

If an ATG who stands 6'7" X 240 in the best shape of his life -- and who owned some of the greatest weapons in fistic history, including his jab, straight right, and left hook -- and has a career KO record of 77% -- when he gets a green rookie with 18 fights hurt he's supposed to finish him off.. Joshua was talking to Klitschko, telling him he wasn't getting the job done.. "If you don't finish me this round I'm gonna knock you out."

That's a lot of moxie for a guy with 44 rounds coming -- in comparison to about 400 for Klitschko. Joshua was a man of the streets and a bad-ass drug dealer before he took up boxing. That's why his survival instincts are finely tuned. He's been in tough situations before.

Holmes, Louis, Ali, Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, and Frazier ate a lot of punches and all got knocked out...all but Holmes and Ali by big underdogs... Not things that Anthony Joshua ever does... We're not pointing out that he suffered 1 lonely knockdown -- but he came back and won by KO against an ATG in one of the greatest fights in the History of Boxing... Those other ATG's didn't manage to do that.

Time will tell........tick tock tick tock.