BoxRec

For what it's worth, I agree with Bennie on this one. Ever since I was a kid I've preferred the lighter weight fighters who display more speed and skill (and latterly, far more dedication in training) than the Lurchweights -- er sorry -- heavyweights.

Cut all heavies up and make two decent bantamweights out of their remains, I say. I watched Holyfield-Lewis II again last night and though I thought Lenny nicked it I couldn't help imagining a 209-pound, twenty-seven year old Real Deal rampaging all over him inside when he got tired, which to me seemed about the fourth. It's been so long since I watched it I forgot how even the ancient Evander who fought him managed to duck under, turn him and paste him when he got tired.

By the by I don't wish to be misconstrued -- Lewis was a great fighter. Just that heavyweights in general suck arse and I'd rather watch someone without bitch-tits, thanks.

Anyway, we now return to our scheduled programme; Was Jim Jeffries big or not?

(humour)

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Jeffries was 6'2 not 6'4" Don't mean to be petty, but tracers work both ways. If you're going to criticise me for lack of knowledge, then you should at least get the fundamentals right. Jeffries is listed at between 6'2" and 6'2 1/2 everywhere I've ever read.

It seems we are going nowhere with this, it all comes down to what you consider a 'significant' size difference. I'm willing to concede that Foreman and Lewis are in the same ball park, but not Liston and Jeffries.

as you say, we're going nowhere with this - largely i think because you have a false impression of the point i've been making: my fault if anyone's as i've obviously not been clear enough.

i do concede the sources you've quoted list jeff at 6'2.5" - all i can say is that everything i've read on the man lists him at 6'4": these are contemporary sources, so could, feasibly, be exaggerated. to show a comparison - here's a still from the original fight of the century.



as you can see jeff is clearly a taller man than the 6'2" johnson.

anyways, my point was regarding fighters who were considered huge heavyweights at the time they were fighting in comparison to the average of that time - imo the only way to really equalise things. you, obviously, are talking about absolute measures. in those terms - as i have stated on this thread - i do tend to agree with you. my only caveat is that it's fine to say a guy of a certain physical stature is too big to be successful, but when the current consensus heavyweight champion of the world is that very same size it does undermine your opinion somewhat. obviously there's a lot to be said for physical size if the smaller man has to be so much better to defeat him - again undermining your point.

to the most, tho, we're probably talking at cross purposes.

I think the fact that a giant like Vitali is considered the consensus champion just shows how weak our division is, much like it was when Primo Carnera and Jess Willard were able to get to the top of the tree.

In fairness I think Vitali has better skills than both those men, but not by that much. I think Vitali is going to unravel when someone with skills, speed and a punch gets to him, Byrd was too negative and defensive to win against Vitali, and was saved by a bummed shoulder.

Trouble is, who is there in the division who shares those attributes. Guinn seemed to fit the bill before imploding against Barrett, and right now the division looks bleak. I think it could be another 5-10 years until another Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield or Lewis comes along. History will show that we were very lucky to have those four men come along at the same time.

Funnily enough, if you compare Bowe and Frazier (this is going to piss someone off) their careers are quite similar, brief peak, one standout win against an all time great (two in Bowe's case) and then whacked about by a big hungry puncher in two contests when past their prime. I am not saying Bowe was quite the equal of Frazier, but his career has some echoes.

BTW, with regard to that picture, I think it very hard to tell from that angle who is taller, and most sources list Jack Johnson at just over 6'1. again, not nit picking just pointing to different sources which I consider reliable. The cyberboxingzone is probably the single best resource for fighter facts, as the people there like Tracy Callis and Hank Kaplan are long time fight historians with a wealth of research behind them.

As you say, contemporary figures often exaggerate the height of fighters, something which happens even now, I mean, Tyson is according to most people I've spoke to who met him no more than 5'10, and people who have trained with David Tua swear he is about 5'9.

If Shane Mosley is 5'10" then I'm Robert Pershing Wadlow!

I think the answer to Bennie's original question is a resounding no. Boxing needs its most widely known division, now more than ever. But i believe that weight is not really an issue, to me it's more a question of age and fitness.

Just as examples, take Vitali and Kirk Johnson. Vitali may have deficiencies, but he is young, fit and healthy, and as a result should be allowed to box. Kirk, on the other hand, should not weigh as much as he does, and his lack of conditioning is appalling. He should not be allowed to fight unless he is in decent shape.

For the overweight and out of shape guys i think that the answer could be compulsory fitness tests, conducted preferably by a body totally independent of whoever sanctions the fight. I'm not sure that the idea would be workable in any way shape or form, but i believe it's something that could at the very least be tried.

Some sort of age restriction also has to be implemented. Although boxers (especially heavies) tend to peak at different ages, there is no way, IMO, that blokes should be fighting well into their forties. It's madness, the potential for long term damage is immense.

Actually that's not a bad idea, I don't know that they are tested for CV fitness during a medical examination.

Ask yourself this, what big hulking heavy has ever been able to fight?

I think we're all forgetting about Eric "Butterbean" Esch here.