BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Of course he was, it's just yet another excuse for a comprehensive ass whooping. Tyson fans can't deal with reality. In it's own way that's a sign of how big of an icon he was. Ali too, the excuses for the Frazier drubbing are always there too.

The problem is it doesn't fit the unbeatable talent before prison ruined him narrative for his fans.

Covfefe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Of course he was, it's just yet another excuse for a comprehensive ass whooping. Tyson fans can't deal with reality. In it's own way that's a sign of how big of an icon he was. Ali too, the excuses for the Frazier drubbing are always there too.

The problem is it doesn't fit the unbeatable talent before prison ruined him narrative for his fans.

As a fan, I've never felt so robbed that Evander didn't get him before prison.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Covfefe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Of course he was, it's just yet another excuse for a comprehensive ass whooping. Tyson fans can't deal with reality. In it's own way that's a sign of how big of an icon he was. Ali too, the excuses for the Frazier drubbing are always there too.

The problem is it doesn't fit the unbeatable talent before prison ruined him narrative for his fans.

As a fan, I've never felt so robbed that Evander didn't get him before prison.

I agree, I love Holyfield. Probably my favourite American heavyweight. As good as they come. Would have done the same to Tyson whenever they fought.

The real question is whether he could have danced like Ali if he wanted to

Tyson would have had trouble with Holyfield and Douglas the night he fought him under any conditions.

IF D'Amato had better genes, IF Tyson was taller, IF women, drugs, alcohol and money didn't screw him up...

IF I had better parents and a higher IQ I wouldn't be writing on this board right now.

Covfefe wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Covfefe wrote:
The problem is it doesn't fit the unbeatable talent before prison ruined him narrative for his fans.

As a fan, I've never felt so robbed that Evander didn't get him before prison.

I agree, I love Holyfield. Probably my favourite American heavyweight. As good as they come. Would have done the same to Tyson whenever they fought.

Boxing was big in the states back then. I had at least 25-30 friends that loved it. I told all of them Evander would beat Mike before he even moved up to Heavyweight. A couple of them called me after the actual fight when we hadn't talked for a couple years. It would have been faster paced and a bit more competitive, same result.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Of course he was, it's just yet another excuse for a comprehensive ass whooping. Tyson fans can't deal with reality. In it's own way that's a sign of how big of an icon he was. Ali too, the excuses for the Frazier drubbing are always there too.

Excellent points. I knew lots of "hardcore" Tyson fans, but most of them were not true boxing fans. They never followed boxing seriously before Tyson came along and most didnt follow boxing after Tyson was done. The ultimate bandwagon fans...they'd show up only for the Tyson PPVs (but usually wouldnt chip in). When Tyson went to prison most of them quit following boxing until he got out. About the only ones who stayed with the sport were the Mexican Tyson fans who were also big Chavez fans. Not surprising that when Tyson was in prison that Don King started using Chavez as his main PPV headliner since most Mexican/Mex-American Tyson fans were also big JCC fans.

Tony1244 wrote:Tyson would have had trouble with Holyfield and Douglas the night he fought him under any conditions.

IF D'Amato had better genes, IF Tyson was taller, IF women, drugs, alcohol and money didn't screw him up...

IF I had better parents and a higher IQ I wouldn't be writing on this board right now.

Even before the first Tyson fight Evander would talk about why he KNEW he would beat Tyson. He used to say "When you stand up to a bully he cant handle it" and he knew from personal experience that he had Tyson's number.

Their history went back to the amateurs. Because Tyson finished 2nd at the 1984 Olympic Trials he got to attend the Olympic training camp as an alternate in case Henry Tillman got injured (like Joe Frazier filled in for Buster Mathis Sr when he got injured before 1964 Olympics).

Anyway, because Tyson was a 200-pounder at the OG Training camp he used to punk the smaller fighters. As Holyfield tells it Tyson would come upon a pool game between smaller fighters and would snatch away the stick and take over the pool game. Evander was a 178-pounder and says when Tyson tried to punk him & take over his game, Holyfield backed him down. Because he stood up to Tyson the bully in 1984 he knew he had his number, no matter when they fought.

So it was the voice of personal experience when Evander talked about standing up to a bully and backing him down. Tyson won a lot of his pre-Buster Douglas fights by intimidation (Michael Spinks being the perfect example) but Douglas and Evander were not intimidated by Tyson.

although tyson was a very good boxer who sends shockers down the nerves of opponents but d other side of him was shattered immediately after coz D died. I hope he becomes a recognized icon.

Best Coast wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:Tyson would have had trouble with Holyfield and Douglas the night he fought him under any conditions.

IF D'Amato had better genes, IF Tyson was taller, IF women, drugs, alcohol and money didn't screw him up...

IF I had better parents and a higher IQ I wouldn't be writing on this board right now.

Even before the first Tyson fight Evander would talk about why he KNEW he would beat Tyson. He used to say "When you stand up to a bully he cant handle it" and he knew from personal experience that he had Tyson's number.

Their history went back to the amateurs. Because Tyson finished 2nd at the 1984 Olympic Trials he got to attend the Olympic training camp as an alternate in case Henry Tillman got injured (like Joe Frazier filled in for Buster Mathis Sr when he got injured before 1964 Olympics).

Anyway, because Tyson was a 200-pounder at the OG Training camp he used to punk the smaller fighters. As Holyfield tells it Tyson would come upon a pool game between smaller fighters and would snatch away the stick and take over the pool game. Evander was a 178-pounder and says when Tyson tried to punk him & take over his game, Holyfield backed him down. Because he stood up to Tyson the bully in 1984 he knew he had his number, no matter when they fought.

So it was the voice of personal experience when Evander talked about standing up to a bully and backing him down. Tyson won a lot of his pre-Buster Douglas fights by intimidation (Michael Spinks being the perfect example) but Douglas and Evander were not intimidated by Tyson.

Very interesting history here. I knew about Frazier/Mathis and Tyson/Tillman but I didn't know about Tyson bullying smaller fighters playing pool. Michael Spinks had so much experience, not to mention growing up in the projects, but he fell for it too.

Tony1244 wrote:

Best Coast wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:Tyson would have had trouble with Holyfield and Douglas the night he fought him under any conditions.

IF D'Amato had better genes, IF Tyson was taller, IF women, drugs, alcohol and money didn't screw him up...

IF I had better parents and a higher IQ I wouldn't be writing on this board right now.

Even before the first Tyson fight Evander would talk about why he KNEW he would beat Tyson. He used to say "When you stand up to a bully he cant handle it" and he knew from personal experience that he had Tyson's number.

Their history went back to the amateurs. Because Tyson finished 2nd at the 1984 Olympic Trials he got to attend the Olympic training camp as an alternate in case Henry Tillman got injured (like Joe Frazier filled in for Buster Mathis Sr when he got injured before 1964 Olympics).

Anyway, because Tyson was a 200-pounder at the OG Training camp he used to punk the smaller fighters. As Holyfield tells it Tyson would come upon a pool game between smaller fighters and would snatch away the stick and take over the pool game. Evander was a 178-pounder and says when Tyson tried to punk him & take over his game, Holyfield backed him down. Because he stood up to Tyson the bully in 1984 he knew he had his number, no matter when they fought.

So it was the voice of personal experience when Evander talked about standing up to a bully and backing him down. Tyson won a lot of his pre-Buster Douglas fights by intimidation (Michael Spinks being the perfect example) but Douglas and Evander were not intimidated by Tyson.

Very interesting history here. I knew about Frazier/Mathis and Tyson/Tillman but I didn't know about Tyson bullying smaller fighters playing pool. Michael Spinks had so much experience, not to mention growing up in the projects, but he fell for it too.

Spinks, Bruno, etc were defeated before a punch was ever thrown but Douglas & Holyfield were unintimidated so Mike was thoroughly exposed by both men. Douglas was normally an out-of-shape underachiever but was in the zone the night he exposed Tyson. As the 1984 Olympic Training Camp incident revealed, Holyfield had already overcome Tyson's bullying tactics 12 years before they ever fought in 1996. After Tyson lost to those 2 his confidence melted down to the point where guys like Danny Williams & Kevin McBride were embarrassing him.

Best Coast wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Best Coast wrote: Even before the first Tyson fight Evander would talk about why he KNEW he would beat Tyson. He used to say "When you stand up to a bully he cant handle it" and he knew from personal experience that he had Tyson's number.

Their history went back to the amateurs. Because Tyson finished 2nd at the 1984 Olympic Trials he got to attend the Olympic training camp as an alternate in case Henry Tillman got injured (like Joe Frazier filled in for Buster Mathis Sr when he got injured before 1964 Olympics).

Anyway, because Tyson was a 200-pounder at the OG Training camp he used to punk the smaller fighters. As Holyfield tells it Tyson would come upon a pool game between smaller fighters and would snatch away the stick and take over the pool game. Evander was a 178-pounder and says when Tyson tried to punk him & take over his game, Holyfield backed him down. Because he stood up to Tyson the bully in 1984 he knew he had his number, no matter when they fought.

So it was the voice of personal experience when Evander talked about standing up to a bully and backing him down. Tyson won a lot of his pre-Buster Douglas fights by intimidation (Michael Spinks being the perfect example) but Douglas and Evander were not intimidated by Tyson.

Very interesting history here. I knew about Frazier/Mathis and Tyson/Tillman but I didn't know about Tyson bullying smaller fighters playing pool. Michael Spinks had so much experience, not to mention growing up in the projects, but he fell for it too.

Spinks, Bruno, etc were defeated before a punch was ever thrown but Douglas & Holyfield were unintimidated so Mike was thoroughly exposed by both men. Douglas was normally an out-of-shape underachiever but was in the zone the night he exposed Tyson. As the 1984 Olympic Training Camp incident revealed, Holyfield had already overcome Tyson's bullying tactics 12 years before they ever fought in 1996. After Tyson lost to those 2 his confidence melted down to the point where guys like Danny Williams & Kevin McBride were embarrassing him.

Tyson was already slipping under Don Kings watch by the time he fought Buster Douglas. Tyson was not fighting the same as earlier in his career when he would bob and weave much more. By the time he fought Douglas he was fighting more like Larry Holmes but without Larry Holmes height. Mike could make this work to a large degree due to his power and hand speed., by the time Tyson fought Holyfield Tyson had done 3 years in prison and was a shell of the fighter he had been earlier in his career. None this these losses proves Tyson isn't a all time great, it's like Saying Tarver is better over all than Roy Jones because he KO'd Roy Jones.

Tyson was fighting like Larry holmes?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Tyson was fighting like Larry holmes?

yea he wasn't bending at the waist crouching when coming in and throwing all those planned out combos. He was standing up and straighter and jabbing and throwing the right hand the old 1+2

His attack was very methodical how it was set up for Tyson by Cus, and he got away from that.

victor-romeo wrote:

Best Coast wrote:

Tony1244 wrote:

Very interesting history here. I knew about Frazier/Mathis and Tyson/Tillman but I didn't know about Tyson bullying smaller fighters playing pool. Michael Spinks had so much experience, not to mention growing up in the projects, but he fell for it too.

Spinks, Bruno, etc were defeated before a punch was ever thrown but Douglas & Holyfield were unintimidated so Mike was thoroughly exposed by both men. Douglas was normally an out-of-shape underachiever but was in the zone the night he exposed Tyson. As the 1984 Olympic Training Camp incident revealed, Holyfield had already overcome Tyson's bullying tactics 12 years before they ever fought in 1996. After Tyson lost to those 2 his confidence melted down to the point where guys like Danny Williams & Kevin McBride were embarrassing him.

Tyson was already slipping under Don Kings watch by the time he fought Buster Douglas. Tyson was not fighting the same as earlier in his career when he would bob and weave much more. By the time he fought Douglas he was fighting more like Larry Holmes but without Larry Holmes height. Mike could make this work to a large degree due to his power and hand speed., by the time Tyson fought Holyfield Tyson had done 3 years in prison and was a shell of the fighter he had been earlier in his career. None this these losses proves Tyson isn't a all time great, it's like Saying Tarver is better over all than Roy Jones because he KO'd Roy Jones.

Never said Tyson wasnt an all-time great but being an ATG doesnt mean you cant be overrated. Even with Kevin Rooney in his corner Tyson was a totally mechanical fighter who could NEVER think on his feet. He and Kevin Rooney had a system worked out where Rooney would shout a numbers during the fight, denoting a specific combination they had worked on in the gym and Tyson would execute. So he did miss Rooney but even when he had Rooney Mike Tyson could NEVER think on his feet. That's why if he didnt KO you by the middle rounds he lost his bearings in the ring and started fighting stupidly in the ring. Holyfield on the other hand could think on his feet and was totally unintimidated by Tyson (for reasons I detailed previously).

So while Tyson MAY have been able to beat Douglas earlier in his career there is no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career, with or without Kevin Rooney.

victor-romeo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Tyson was fighting like Larry holmes?

yea he wasn't bending at the waist crouching when coming in and throwing all those planned out combos. He was standing up and straighter and jabbing and throwing the right hand the old 1+2

His attack was very methodical how it was set up for Tyson by Cus, and he got away from that.

I think he was fighting like an undisciplined Mike Tyson. Perhaps Tyson was fighting like Earnie Shavers, looking for that 1 good shot instead of throwing combos and bobbing.

Best Coast wrote:

victor-romeo wrote:

Best Coast wrote: Spinks, Bruno, etc were defeated before a punch was ever thrown but Douglas & Holyfield were unintimidated so Mike was thoroughly exposed by both men. Douglas was normally an out-of-shape underachiever but was in the zone the night he exposed Tyson. As the 1984 Olympic Training Camp incident revealed, Holyfield had already overcome Tyson's bullying tactics 12 years before they ever fought in 1996. After Tyson lost to those 2 his confidence melted down to the point where guys like Danny Williams & Kevin McBride were embarrassing him.

Tyson was already slipping under Don Kings watch by the time he fought Buster Douglas. Tyson was not fighting the same as earlier in his career when he would bob and weave much more. By the time he fought Douglas he was fighting more like Larry Holmes but without Larry Holmes height. Mike could make this work to a large degree due to his power and hand speed., by the time Tyson fought Holyfield Tyson had done 3 years in prison and was a shell of the fighter he had been earlier in his career. None this these losses proves Tyson isn't a all time great, it's like Saying Tarver is better over all than Roy Jones because he KO'd Roy Jones.

Never said Tyson wasnt an all-time great but being an ATG doesnt mean you cant be overrated. Even with Kevin Rooney in his corner Tyson was a totally mechanical fighter who could NEVER think on his feet. He and Kevin Rooney had a system worked out where Rooney would shout a numbers during the fight, denoting a specific combination they had worked on in the gym and Tyson would execute. So he did miss Rooney but even when he had Rooney Mike Tyson could NEVER think on his feet. That's why if he didnt KO you by the middle rounds he lost his bearings in the ring and started fighting stupidly in the ring. Holyfield on the other hand could think on his feet and was totally unintimidated by Tyson (for reasons I detailed previously).

So while Tyson MAY have been able to beat Douglas earlier in his career there is no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career, with or without Kevin Rooney.

That's a pretty rational post and respect most of what you say except the part "no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career" that is conjecture but could be true. No matter what they both met when Tyson was on the fade , Holyfield was on the fade for the moment too but went into a resurgence i believe after the Tyson fights.
For the Record I think both Holyfield and Tyson are great fighters.
Over Tyson's career I have loved and hated him and now respect him. I was Happy when Douglas and Holyfield KO"d him. Doesn't mean I can't recognize Tyson wasn't at his best when this happened.

Tyson was very charismatic like Dempsey... The public loved him for some reason... The 5 most charismatic fighters ever were Jack Dempsey, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Joe Louis, and Sugar Ray Robinson... However they were very far from the greatest or smartest boxers.

Guys like Jack Johnson, Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran were also very charismatic... But they were a little more clever... And more skilled.

The most skilled boxers were: Salvador Sanchez, Willie Pep, Floyd Mayweather, Eder Jofre, and Larry Holmes. Not that they never got hit -- everyone does.

victor-romeo wrote:

Best Coast wrote:

victor-romeo wrote: Tyson was already slipping under Don Kings watch by the time he fought Buster Douglas. Tyson was not fighting the same as earlier in his career when he would bob and weave much more. By the time he fought Douglas he was fighting more like Larry Holmes but without Larry Holmes height. Mike could make this work to a large degree due to his power and hand speed., by the time Tyson fought Holyfield Tyson had done 3 years in prison and was a shell of the fighter he had been earlier in his career. None this these losses proves Tyson isn't a all time great, it's like Saying Tarver is better over all than Roy Jones because he KO'd Roy Jones.

Never said Tyson wasnt an all-time great but being an ATG doesnt mean you cant be overrated. Even with Kevin Rooney in his corner Tyson was a totally mechanical fighter who could NEVER think on his feet. He and Kevin Rooney had a system worked out where Rooney would shout a numbers during the fight, denoting a specific combination they had worked on in the gym and Tyson would execute. So he did miss Rooney but even when he had Rooney Mike Tyson could NEVER think on his feet. That's why if he didnt KO you by the middle rounds he lost his bearings in the ring and started fighting stupidly in the ring. Holyfield on the other hand could think on his feet and was totally unintimidated by Tyson (for reasons I detailed previously).

So while Tyson MAY have been able to beat Douglas earlier in his career there is no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career, with or without Kevin Rooney.

That's a pretty rational post and respect most of what you say except the part "no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career" that is conjecture but could be true. No matter what they both met when Tyson was on the fade , Holyfield was on the fade for the moment too but went into a resurgence i believe after the Tyson fights.
For the Record I think both Holyfield and Tyson are great fighters.
Over Tyson's career I have loved and hated him and now respect him. I was Happy when Douglas and Holyfield KO"d him. Doesn't mean I can't recognize Tyson wasn't at his best when this happened.

Let's agree to disagree!

Tyson may not have been at his best, but neither was Holy. Evander was coming off one of the worst fights of his career. The tougher-than-expected win over bloated cruiser Bobby Czyz (who was never a legit HW). Right before that one Holy was stopped by Bowe in 8. Evander was actually a HUGE underdog in the first Tyson fight because he was considered washed-up after Czyz & Bowe III.

But I do agree that the 2 wins over Tyson energized Holy's seemingly faded career. His dominant TKO over Moorer (who had beaten him) was one of his best fights ever!!

Best Coast wrote:

victor-romeo wrote:

Best Coast wrote: Never said Tyson wasnt an all-time great but being an ATG doesnt mean you cant be overrated. Even with Kevin Rooney in his corner Tyson was a totally mechanical fighter who could NEVER think on his feet. He and Kevin Rooney had a system worked out where Rooney would shout a numbers during the fight, denoting a specific combination they had worked on in the gym and Tyson would execute. So he did miss Rooney but even when he had Rooney Mike Tyson could NEVER think on his feet. That's why if he didnt KO you by the middle rounds he lost his bearings in the ring and started fighting stupidly in the ring. Holyfield on the other hand could think on his feet and was totally unintimidated by Tyson (for reasons I detailed previously).

So while Tyson MAY have been able to beat Douglas earlier in his career there is no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career, with or without Kevin Rooney.

That's a pretty rational post and respect most of what you say except the part "no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career" that is conjecture but could be true. No matter what they both met when Tyson was on the fade , Holyfield was on the fade for the moment too but went into a resurgence i believe after the Tyson fights.
For the Record I think both Holyfield and Tyson are great fighters.
Over Tyson's career I have loved and hated him and now respect him. I was Happy when Douglas and Holyfield KO"d him. Doesn't mean I can't recognize Tyson wasn't at his best when this happened.

Let's agree to disagree!

Tyson may not have been at his best, but neither was Holy. Evander was coming off one of the worst fights of his career. The tougher-than-expected win over bloated cruiser Bobby Czyz (who was never a legit HW). Right before that one Holy was stopped by Bowe in 8. Evander was actually a HUGE underdog in the first Tyson fight because he was considered washed-up after Czyz & Bowe III.

But I do agree that the 2 wins over Tyson energized Holy's seemingly faded career. His dominant TKO over Moorer (who had beaten him) was one of his best fights ever!!

It was a long time ago but if i remember correctly didn't Holyfield say something was wrong with his heart vs Czyz and that prayer had fixed it by the Tyson fight?

He was diagnosed with a heart problem after he lost to Moorer. The czyz fight was after the bowe fight he was stopped after knocking bowe out because he had hepatitis. People were afraid that was his heart. Mike just wasn't as talented or as tough. That's a rough combo.

Well, as icons his only rivals are Muhammad Ali and Jack Dempsey. These men all became synonymous with the eras in which they fought. Films, books, articles, record ticket sales, public appearances, cultural impact, rolling with the high and mighty etc.

In fact Ali managed this feat in 2 eras and was for a very long time the most famous face on the planet.

The funny thing is that like Bruce Lee or Marilyn Monroe, these larger than life characters have passed into legend and are proving very difficult to replace. At least football has Messi and tennis Federer.

I read about the pool table incident with Tyson and Holyfield. Everyone I talked to during the late 1980s-early 1990s thought that Tyson would beat Holyfield. I thought that Holyfield would win. They were supposed to fight in either 1990 or 1991. Even after Tyson lost to Douglas, people were still saying that Tyson would beat Holyfield. Tyson's two wins over Razor Ruddock kept people thinking that Tyson was the best and that the Douglas fight was an aberration. I wanted to see Holyfield fight Ruddock, but he never did. Instead, he fought Bert Cooper and Larry Holmes. If Tyson fought Holyfield in 1990 or 1991, Holyfield would have been in his late 20s, so still in his physical prime. Tyson would have been in his mid 20s, so in his prime as well, but is it better to be in late 20s or early 20s as a boxer? I guess it depends on the boxer. I think it would have been a more entertaining fight if they fought against each other in their primes, but I think Holyfield would still have won. I think Tyson/Don King wanted to avoid fighting Holyfield and also I think they did not want to fight George Foreman who was a dangerous opponent even at his older age and he did go the distance against Holyfield. In 1989 which was about a year before he won the title from Douglas, Holyfield knocked out Adilson Rodrigues in the second round. Lou Duva who was Holyfield's trainer was saying that Holyfield had one punch knockout power and that this was evidence of that, but replay showed that Rodrigues' head bounced off the canvas. When Rodrigues fought Foreman a year later, it was the same result, but the knockout came solely from Foreman's punch. Most of Holyfield's wins were by TKO when he would win by knockout, so some people thought that Holyfield would not be able to beat Tyson who was knocking out opponents earlier. For example, one of their common opponents was Alex Stewart who Holyfield beat by TKO in round eight, but Tyson beat Stewart a year later by TKO in round one. I think it just was not Holyfield's style or strength to knock out with just one punch. It was usually from an accumulation of punches and that is how he beat Tyson in their first fight.

victor-romeo wrote:

Best Coast wrote:

victor-romeo wrote: That's a pretty rational post and respect most of what you say except the part "no way Tyson beats Holyfield at ANY stage of his career" that is conjecture but could be true. No matter what they both met when Tyson was on the fade , Holyfield was on the fade for the moment too but went into a resurgence i believe after the Tyson fights.
For the Record I think both Holyfield and Tyson are great fighters.
Over Tyson's career I have loved and hated him and now respect him. I was Happy when Douglas and Holyfield KO"d him. Doesn't mean I can't recognize Tyson wasn't at his best when this happened.

Let's agree to disagree!

Tyson may not have been at his best, but neither was Holy. Evander was coming off one of the worst fights of his career. The tougher-than-expected win over bloated cruiser Bobby Czyz (who was never a legit HW). Right before that one Holy was stopped by Bowe in 8. Evander was actually a HUGE underdog in the first Tyson fight because he was considered washed-up after Czyz & Bowe III.

But I do agree that the 2 wins over Tyson energized Holy's seemingly faded career. His dominant TKO over Moorer (who had beaten him) was one of his best fights ever!!

It was a long time ago but if i remember correctly didn't Holyfield say something was wrong with his heart vs Czyz and that prayer had fixed it by the Tyson fight?

Great point!! I forgot all about that, even though I believe Evander WAS healed because his career definitely turned around between the Czyz fight and first Tyson fight. Plus I've known numerous people who were similarly healed through prayer!!

RScarf1 wrote:I read about the pool table incident with Tyson and Holyfield. Everyone I talked to during the late 1980s-early 1990s thought that Tyson would beat Holyfield. I thought that Holyfield would win. They were supposed to fight in either 1990 or 1991. Even after Tyson lost to Douglas, people were still saying that Tyson would beat Holyfield. Tyson's two wins over Razor Ruddock kept people thinking that Tyson was the best and that the Douglas fight was an aberration. I wanted to see Holyfield fight Ruddock, but he never did. Instead, he fought Bert Cooper and Larry Holmes. If Tyson fought Holyfield in 1990 or 1991, Holyfield would have been in his late 20s, so still in his physical prime. Tyson would have been in his mid 20s, so in his prime as well, but is it better to be in late 20s or early 20s as a boxer? I guess it depends on the boxer. I think it would have been a more entertaining fight if they fought against each other in their primes, but I think Holyfield would still have won. I think Tyson/Don King wanted to avoid fighting Holyfield and also I think they did not want to fight George Foreman who was a dangerous opponent even at his older age and he did go the distance against Holyfield. In 1989 which was about a year before he won the title from Douglas, Holyfield knocked out Adilson Rodrigues in the second round. Lou Duva who was Holyfield's trainer was saying that Holyfield had one punch knockout power and that this was evidence of that, but replay showed that Rodrigues' head bounced off the canvas. When Rodrigues fought Foreman a year later, it was the same result, but the knockout came solely from Foreman's punch. Most of Holyfield's wins were by TKO when he would win by knockout, so some people thought that Holyfield would not be able to beat Tyson who was knocking out opponents earlier. For example, one of their common opponents was Alex Stewart who Holyfield beat by TKO in round eight, but Tyson beat Stewart a year later by TKO in round one. I think it just was not Holyfield's style or strength to knock out with just one punch. It was usually from an accumulation of punches and that is how he beat Tyson in their first fight.

I remember watching that first Holyfield-Tyson fight and everyone thought Holy was washed up and Tyson would destroy him. In fact, among the many national boxing writers predicting the fight, only Ron Borges of Boston Herald predicted an Evander win!!

You're right that Holy was not a one-punch KO artist but he was mentally tougher than Tyson to a great degree and was able to think on his feet, which is something Tyson could never do. The best example of Holyfield's phenomenal ability to think on his feet was the Buster Douglas fight.

Duva and Evander studied Douglas on tape and noticed that Buster threw his right uppercut (the one that KOd Tyson) from too far away and in doing so left himself wide open. Watch a video of the 3rd round of Holy-Douglas and put it on slow-motion if possible. Right before Douglas went down for the count, Evander was starting to throw a left. But when he saw Buster throwing that right uppercut from far away, Holy shifted his weight, stopped the left hand in mid-punch and delivered a right cross that nailed Douglas right on the chops, sending Buster down like a sack of potatoes.

Of all the thousands of fights I've seen over the years that was the best example of "thinking on your feet" that I've ever seen in a boxing match!! Uncanny move by Evander and something a programmed fighter like Tyson could never do in a million fights!!