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Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 12 Sep 2017, 02:44
by ClivePatrickLyons
Kalan wrote:Ray Robinson is your number 1 Middleweight??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
SRR's record at Middleweight is very spotty... For instance SRR's Middleweight Title Defense record is 3-3 with 2 KO wins... Middleweights decked him 6 X
In sharp contrast Gennady Golovkin's Middleweight Title Defense record is 18-0 with 17 KO's... No Middleweight ever came close to decking him...
There is no doubt that Triple-G would clean up the slender and vulnerable Robinson if they met.
Also...Jermain Taylor doesn't rank over Kelly Pavlik who beat him twice, once by KO... Pavlik has never been stopped and Taylor was stopped repeatedly... Pavlik fell into drug and alcohol abuse as his fame grew and he didn't handle the adulation well -- but I don't think his truncated career should be counted against a prime Pavlik.. Prime Pavlik jabbed and boxed the piss out of Taylor once, and knocked him stiff on another occasion.. He was a 6'2" Middleweight with a long reach and terrific punching power.. He would certainly would give Robinson living Hell at 160. His Middleweight Title Defense record is 4-1 with 3 KO wins.
SRR Was still at his best when he retired as Middleweight Champion when he was 31 years old 132-3-2 not the 34 year old you keep comparing him with you match him with other great Middleweight's SRR WAS REALLY A JR MIDDLEWEIGHT NOT WELTERWEIGHT.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 12 Sep 2017, 11:55
by Keko
klompton wrote:Greb higher. He has a better resume and was better head to head than Robinson.
I Agree
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 12 Sep 2017, 15:49
by Kalan
ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SRR Was still at his best when he retired as Middleweight Champion when he was 31 years old 132-3-2 not the 34 year old you keep comparing him with you match him with other great Middleweight's SRR WAS REALLY A JR MIDDLEWEIGHT NOT WELTERWEIGHT.
Those wins were 90% fluffy opponents with terrible records... SRR was a horrific record padder... After he won the Middleweight Title he fought 8 more non-title fights versus record padders in 4 months... Bad habits are hard to break... Then he lost his first Title Defense... GGG still has a better winning ratio...has never been knocked down...and attempts to fight the best available Middleweights every time out... And his Middleweight Title Defense record is WAY more impressive than Robinson's 3-3... So you say SRR was a 154-pounder??? ... If you're not the best Middleweight-- why be ranked on top?
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 12 Sep 2017, 17:24
by BoxBuzz
Monzon was/remains the best MW of all time. Greb is possibly his equal, but no real way to even assess his abilities other than through the shadows of hearsay.
Ray would not be successful against the likes of Monzon, Hagler could barely beat Duran a lightweight, and though he did a good job with a Hearns who fought the wrong fight, he came up short with SRL whom Duran beat.
There is absolutely no MW including GGbeGeebers that could beat him 2 out of 3.
And that's as true and factual as it's going to get in this thread, fellow pugilisticians.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 13 Sep 2017, 14:13
by Kalan
NOPE!!! ... Triple-G beats Monzon -- who was knocked on his can by Rodrigo Valdez and never hurt him.. Monzon also never hurt Benny Briscoe who Valdez knocked cold... What would happen is, GGG cuts off the ring...runs his jab up Monzon's nose...gets close and starts throwing... It would be one Hell of a fight... But by the time Monzon was GGG's age he was retired... Golovkin will probably go for 5 more -- and won't suffer all those defeats and draws.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 13 Sep 2017, 21:14
by APerno
Kalan wrote:APerno wrote:Kalan wrote:What about him ?!?!
You don't think this is Triple-Gs career defining fight?
I thought you were talking about Pavlik -- and he was coming out of rehab or something.
Did Robinson have career defining Middleweight losses???? ... Or would Golovkin be entitled to NO losses EVER in his entire career????
No not at all - if he wins he will be unquestionably viewed as great - if he loses he will diminish some but considerably less than the rise he would gain from winning; this is his opportunity to step up the the top.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 00:00
by Kalan
Yeah... Well... The thing is... when Robinson lost he got a rematch when and where he wanted it... He was even pestered and bothered to rematch Joey Maxim and Ralph Jones.. But he didn't feel the need to incur further defeats.. But he felt he could beat Turpin, Basilio, and Fullmer.. So he was soon in the ring with them again.. I'm pretty sure Golovkin will not be afforded that opportunity if he losses.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 02:45
by ClivePatrickLyons
Kalan wrote:ClivePatrickLyons wrote:SRR Was still at his best when he retired as Middleweight Champion when he was 31 years old 132-3-2 not the 34 year old you keep comparing him with you match him with other great Middleweight's SRR WAS REALLY A JR MIDDLEWEIGHT NOT WELTERWEIGHT.
Those wins were 90% fluffy opponents with terrible records... SRR was a horrific record padder... After he won the Middleweight Title he fought 8 more non-title fights versus record padders in 4 months... Bad habits are hard to break... Then he lost his first Title Defense... GGG still has a better winning ratio...has never been knocked down...and attempts to fight the best available Middleweights every time out... And his Middleweight Title Defense record is WAY more impressive than Robinson's 3-3... So you say SRR was a 154-pounder??? ... If you're not the best Middleweight-- why be ranked on top?
THE BEST EVER WELTERWEIGHT/JR MIDDLE/MIDDLEWEIGHT
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 02:45
by ClivePatrickLyons
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 10:25
by klompton
Kalan wrote:NOPE!!! ... Triple-G beats Monzon -- who was knocked on his can by Rodrigo Valdez and never hurt him.. Monzon also never hurt Benny Briscoe who Valdez knocked cold... What would happen is, GGG cuts off the ring...runs his jab up Monzon's nose...gets close and starts throwing... It would be one Hell of a fight... But by the time Monzon was GGG's age he was retired... Golovkin will probably go for 5 more -- and won't suffer all those defeats and draws.
I remember my first taste of alcohol...
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 13:33
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun. Have never done a list this extensive for middleweights. Being a glutton for punishment, I would like to hear comments. Let me know who is way too high and low. This is sort of a rough draft, so I am sure I could change my mind on some of these.
Included are a few great fighters who really only spent little time in this weight class but did enough at middleweight to be worth a mention. They probably would have beat some guys ranked ahead of them but we will never know for sure.
Not that interested in the Top 20 or so; they have been argued many times before.
Anyway, here it is:
1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Mickey Walker
6. Dick Tiger
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Gene Fullmer
10. Nino Benvenuti
11. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Charlie Burley
13. Roy Jones
14. Gennady Golovkin
15. Jake LaMotta
16. Joey Giardello
17. Tiger Flowers
18. Mike Gibbons
19. Emile Griffith
20. Tommy Ryan
21. Freddie Steele
22. Tony Zale
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Eddie Booker
25. Holman Williams
26. Kid McCoy
27. Rodrigo Valdez
28. James Toney
29. Mike McCallum
30. Nonpariel Jack Dempsey
31. Billy Papke
32. Les Darcey
33. Randy Turpin
34. Young Corbet III
35. Michael Nunn
36. Bobo Olsen
37. Carmen Basilio
38. Marcel Thil
39. Billy Conn
40. Teddy Yarosz
41. Lou Broulliard
42. Rocky Graziano
43. Gorilla Jones
44. Mike O’Dowd
45. Ken Overlin
46. Vince Dundee
47. Bennie Briscoe
48. Paul Pender
49. Sumbu Kalambay
50. Cerfino Garcia
51. Al Hostak
52. Solly Krueger
53. Fred Apostoli
54. Len Harvey
55. Thomas Hearns
56. Saul Alvarez
57. Johnny Wilson
58. Al McCoy
59. Jeff Smith
60. Eddie McGootry
61. George Chip
62. Frank Klaus
63. Jimmy Clabby
64. Alan Minter
65. Vito Antuofermo
66. Hugo Corro
67. Terry Downes
68. Sergio Martinez
69. Mustafa Hamsho
70. Jermaine Taylor
71. Kelly Pavlik
72. William Joppy
73. Herol Graham
74. Rocky Castellani
75. Gil Turner
76. Tiger Jones
77. George Benton
78. Eduardo Lausse
79. Spider Webb
80. Charles Humez
81. Laurent Dauthuille
82. Robert Villemain
83. Tiberi Mitri
84. Cyrille Dellanoit
85. Gustav Scholz
86. Felix Sturm
87. Gerald McClellan
88. Frank Tate
89. Keith Holmes
90. Iran Barkley
91. Reggie Johnson
92. Florentino Fernandez
93. Leo Houck
94. Hugo Kelly
95. Babe Risko
96. Ben Jeby
97. Roberto Duran
98. Felix Trinidad
99. Ray Leonard
100. Rubin Carter
The great Roy Jones, Jr is too high. He shouldn't be above GGG, who did much more at middleweight than he. Jones didn't do much at 160.
The greats Stanley Ketchel and Bernard Hopkins should be 5 and 6, respectively. They made a great mark on the division history.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 13:43
by Ambling Alp II
klompton wrote:Kalan wrote:NOPE!!! ... Triple-G beats Monzon -- who was knocked on his can by Rodrigo Valdez and never hurt him.. Monzon also never hurt Benny Briscoe who Valdez knocked cold... What would happen is, GGG cuts off the ring...runs his jab up Monzon's nose...gets close and starts throwing... It would be one Hell of a fight... But by the time Monzon was GGG's age he was retired... Golovkin will probably go for 5 more -- and won't suffer all those defeats and draws.
I remember my first taste of alcohol...
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 13:53
by scartissue
elmersalsa wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this would be fun. Have never done a list this extensive for middleweights. Being a glutton for punishment, I would like to hear comments. Let me know who is way too high and low. This is sort of a rough draft, so I am sure I could change my mind on some of these.
Included are a few great fighters who really only spent little time in this weight class but did enough at middleweight to be worth a mention. They probably would have beat some guys ranked ahead of them but we will never know for sure.
Not that interested in the Top 20 or so; they have been argued many times before.
Anyway, here it is:
1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Mickey Walker
6. Dick Tiger
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Stanley Ketchel
9. Gene Fullmer
10. Nino Benvenuti
11. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Charlie Burley
13. Roy Jones
14. Gennady Golovkin
15. Jake LaMotta
16. Joey Giardello
17. Tiger Flowers
18. Mike Gibbons
19. Emile Griffith
20. Tommy Ryan
21. Freddie Steele
22. Tony Zale
23. Marcel Cerdan
24. Eddie Booker
25. Holman Williams
26. Kid McCoy
27. Rodrigo Valdez
28. James Toney
29. Mike McCallum
30. Nonpariel Jack Dempsey
31. Billy Papke
32. Les Darcey
33. Randy Turpin
34. Young Corbet III
35. Michael Nunn
36. Bobo Olsen
37. Carmen Basilio
38. Marcel Thil
39. Billy Conn
40. Teddy Yarosz
41. Lou Broulliard
42. Rocky Graziano
43. Gorilla Jones
44. Mike O’Dowd
45. Ken Overlin
46. Vince Dundee
47. Bennie Briscoe
48. Paul Pender
49. Sumbu Kalambay
50. Cerfino Garcia
51. Al Hostak
52. Solly Krueger
53. Fred Apostoli
54. Len Harvey
55. Thomas Hearns
56. Saul Alvarez
57. Johnny Wilson
58. Al McCoy
59. Jeff Smith
60. Eddie McGootry
61. George Chip
62. Frank Klaus
63. Jimmy Clabby
64. Alan Minter
65. Vito Antuofermo
66. Hugo Corro
67. Terry Downes
68. Sergio Martinez
69. Mustafa Hamsho
70. Jermaine Taylor
71. Kelly Pavlik
72. William Joppy
73. Herol Graham
74. Rocky Castellani
75. Gil Turner
76. Tiger Jones
77. George Benton
78. Eduardo Lausse
79. Spider Webb
80. Charles Humez
81. Laurent Dauthuille
82. Robert Villemain
83. Tiberi Mitri
84. Cyrille Dellanoit
85. Gustav Scholz
86. Felix Sturm
87. Gerald McClellan
88. Frank Tate
89. Keith Holmes
90. Iran Barkley
91. Reggie Johnson
92. Florentino Fernandez
93. Leo Houck
94. Hugo Kelly
95. Babe Risko
96. Ben Jeby
97. Roberto Duran
98. Felix Trinidad
99. Ray Leonard
100. Rubin Carter
The great Roy Jones, Jr is too high. He shouldn't be above GGG, who did much more at middleweight than he. Jones didn't do much at 160.
The greats Stanley Ketchel and Bernard Hopkins should be 5 and 6, respectively. They made a great mark on the division history.
On the first page of this thread I named several fighters whom I felt belonged on this list, but again, none moreso than Lloyd Marshall. And to be clear, he did beat from this list #95 Babe Risko, #45 Ken Overlin, #41 Lou Brouillard, #40 Teddy Yarosz, #25 Holman Williams, #15 Jake LaMotta and #12 Charley Burley. A truly great fighter.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 16:45
by APerno
scartissue wrote:
On the first page of this thread I named several fighters whom I felt belonged on this list, but again, none moreso than Lloyd Marshall. And to be clear, he did beat from this list #95 Babe Risko, #45 Ken Overlin, #41 Lou Brouillard, #40 Teddy Yarosz, #25 Holman Williams, #15 Jake LaMotta and #12 Charley Burley. A truly great fighter.
Interesting fighter - I was ignorant of his existence thank you for the tip. - He looked to be on a championship run between '44 and '45, starting with Burley, then LaMotta, then Maxim - but when he got to Archie Moore it looks like the wheels started coming off and he slid pretty bad. After Moore, Charles avenged his lost (twice KOed), and then he fell to Olsen, Matthews, and Cockell (twice) and then it was over. - It looks like he may have been 'chin challenged.'
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 14 Sep 2017, 20:54
by Kalan
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 01:15
by Kalan
golden oldie wrote:And anyone who doesn't acknowledge Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter who ever lived ( regardless of weight ) needs neither alcohol, or drugs. However they DO need help for mental health deficiency
Just like you think anyone who believes in God must also believe in the tooth fairy.. People have varying opinions about who the best fighter was... Some think Mayweather... Some think Willie Pep... Some think Gene Tunney... Some think Jack Johnson...Some think Ali... Some think Lomachenko... some think Joe Louis... some think Salvador Sanchez... some think Eder Jofre... some think Duran... Some think Ray Leonard... Some think Julio Cesar Chavez... For a long time this website had Archie Moore on top and now they have Mayweather... For you they have mental health deficiencies.
The reason someone might not believe Robinson was the greatest fighter ever is he lost 19 times and padded his record with scores of non-title fights.. His record in actual World Title Defenses wasn't that outstanding at 8-3... If you ask somebody who the best boxer Archie Moore ever fought they'll may say Charley Burley... or Ezzard Charles... or Floyd Patterson... or Muhammad Ali... or Loyd Marshall... If you ask somebody who the best boxer Sugar Ray Robinson ever fought they'll give you a blank stare or maybe say Kid Gavilan or Henry Armstrong, who was really a brawler not a boxer... Robinson suffered quite a few knockdowns so he got hit real good -- and consecutive title defenses is the gold standard. You can't pad 'em up as much when you're defending a World Title.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 07:57
by elmersalsa
golden oldie wrote:And anyone who doesn't acknowledge Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter who ever lived ( regardless of weight ) needs neither alcohol, or drugs. However they DO need help for mental health deficiency.
I am without doubt proud to be a Brit, and I don't give a toss what other nationalities think with regards to Lennox Lewis, who I believe to be second only to Ali in the ALL TIME Heavyweight list ( though I believe H2H ) Lennox could possibly beat him. But sometimes you just have to wipe your mouth and face reality. And that reality is Walker Smith was head and shoulders above any fighter before or since.
No, he wasn't. The great Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't the greatest fighter pound per pound in my view. Neither he was the most complete fighter ever. That is American media propaganda.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 10:42
by Ambling Alp II
elmersalsa wrote:golden oldie wrote:And anyone who doesn't acknowledge Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter who ever lived ( regardless of weight ) needs neither alcohol, or drugs. However they DO need help for mental health deficiency.
I am without doubt proud to be a Brit, and I don't give a toss what other nationalities think with regards to Lennox Lewis, who I believe to be second only to Ali in the ALL TIME Heavyweight list ( though I believe H2H ) Lennox could possibly beat him. But sometimes you just have to wipe your mouth and face reality. And that reality is Walker Smith was head and shoulders above any fighter before or since.
No, he wasn't. The great Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't the greatest fighter pound per pound in my view. Neither he was the most complete fighter ever.
That is American media propaganda.
American media propaganda. Gotta love it.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 11:06
by Seamus
Compared to Robinson, Monzon and Hagler's resumes at 160 are anemic.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 11:58
by Kalan
golden oldie wrote:Kalan wrote:golden oldie wrote:And anyone who doesn't acknowledge Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter who ever lived ( regardless of weight ) needs neither alcohol, or drugs. However they DO need help for mental health deficiency
Just like you think anyone who believes in God must also believe in the tooth fairy
Which sums you up perfectly, and suitably explains why you should never be taken seriously.
It comes down to a simple choice. A person can take notice of legendary boxing folks who either did / do extol the abilities of SRR such as Futch, Durham, D'Amato, Ali, Dundee,,,,,, or take notice of the likes of YOU. I would say it is a no brainer.
Let's just say that Angelo Dundee never boxed. He picked Buster Douglas to "easily" beat Evander Holyfield and said the weight wouldn't be an issue. "Light is not right" is what Angie said. You know NOTHING about Futch. He said Charley Burley was the greatest ever. So did Archie Moore, who knows a little more than you about the science of Boxing since he fought for about 30 years...and fought better fighters than Robinson ever did... won more fights... fought from 145 to 206... challenged Robinson to fight on several occasions... and finished his career with a clear head and well functioning brain, unlike the tragic sugar man.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 15 Sep 2017, 19:14
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp II wrote:elmersalsa wrote:golden oldie wrote:And anyone who doesn't acknowledge Ray Robinson as the greatest fighter who ever lived ( regardless of weight ) needs neither alcohol, or drugs. However they DO need help for mental health deficiency.
I am without doubt proud to be a Brit, and I don't give a toss what other nationalities think with regards to Lennox Lewis, who I believe to be second only to Ali in the ALL TIME Heavyweight list ( though I believe H2H ) Lennox could possibly beat him. But sometimes you just have to wipe your mouth and face reality. And that reality is Walker Smith was head and shoulders above any fighter before or since.
No, he wasn't. The great Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't the greatest fighter pound per pound in my view. Neither he was the most complete fighter ever.
That is American media propaganda.
American media propaganda. Gotta love it.
Yes, it is. Who's to say that he was the best fighter ever? I saw the great Henry Armstrong's accomplishments and are more impressive to me than Robinson.
That the American media says that he was the most complete boxer ever? I disagree. I can name at least 10 boxers that were more complete than he. Robinson could not fight inside. I have never seen him fight inside. American media sometimes put lots of garbage in there.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 00:32
by Kalan
Anybody who thinks Robinson---who had a Middleweight Title Defense record of 3-3 with 2 KO's and was decked by crude swingers like Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Rocky Castellani, Artie Levine, and Tommy Bell---was the greatest Middleweight ever, simply can't think clearly or objectively.
Archie Moore had more fights than Robinson against better opponents ... and didn't wind up like Robinson.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 13:00
by Ambling Alp II
elmersalsa wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:elmersalsa wrote:
No, he wasn't. The great Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't the greatest fighter pound per pound in my view. Neither he was the most complete fighter ever. That is American media propaganda.
American media propaganda. Gotta love it.
Yes, it is. Who's to say that he was the best fighter ever? I saw the great Henry Armstrong's accomplishments and are more impressive to me than Robinson.
That the American media says that he was the most complete boxer ever? I disagree. I can name at least 10 boxers that were more complete than he. Robinson could not fight inside. I have never seen him fight inside. American media sometimes put lots of garbage in there.
Sorry elmer, I was under the impression that Armstrong was an American. My mistake.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 13:11
by elmersalsa
Ambling Alp II wrote:elmersalsa wrote:Ambling Alp II wrote:[/b]
American media propaganda. Gotta love it.
Yes, it is. Who's to say that he was the best fighter ever? I saw the great Henry Armstrong's accomplishments and are more impressive to me than Robinson.
That the American media says that he was the most complete boxer ever? I disagree. I can name at least 10 boxers that were more complete than he. Robinson could not fight inside. I have never seen him fight inside. American media sometimes put lots of garbage in there.
Sorry elmer, I was under the impression that Armstrong was an American. My mistake.
To me, the great Henry Armstrong is the greatest boxer pound per pound that ever lived. End of story.
Re: Top 100 Middleweights
Posted: 16 Sep 2017, 13:19
by BoxBuzz
Honestly? Armstrong is your pick for best of the best?
Even after the thorough review and assessment of one of our top contributors who's opinion appears to be that he was just an ol' run of the mill headbutter, who had the system at his beck and call, was given gift decisions, and allowed to exploit the weaker contenders just to sweeten up his portfolio?
I do think he was worthy of great respect.......I don't share that he tops the list, but honestly I won't be publishing my list till ten minutes before my death.
Partly because I keep re-assessing.....even Kalan has had a bit of an impact on top 100.........
and partly because once I commit, I don't want to have to live with the pot shots at just how lame my list turned out to be. lol.
