BoxRec

Hagler DID duck Herol Graham... There's no and's, if's, or but's about it... Herol was a slick boxer, European and British Champion, and 38-0... Those were the reasons he was named mandatory challenger over Leonard or any other Middleweight in the world... If you don't fight your mandatory and you're fighting only once a year... Come on, he could easily have found the time to fight Herol Graham if he fought once a year since he was 29.

He fought twice in 1984 and once a year in '85, '86, and '87.. When you have that kind of schedule there no reason to be ducking mandatories.

After all your BS and "guessing" the facts don't change... Harol Graham was still unbeaten to 38-0 and was named the mandatory challenger for Hagler.

If you're going to slam undefeated Graham's opponents because they got beat -- Hagler also was also beaten by Willie Monroe and Bobby Watts.

Hagler was fighting once a year. He could have faced his mandatory challenger AND Leonard. The WBA stripped Hagler of the Middleweight Title. The IBF refused to sanction the Leonard fight. Hagler could have found time in his relaxed schedule to fight Graham, but the Brit was a very slick boxer.

And Julian Jackson was not.........and yet.....

Would you really put money on a Graham upset? Or are you just yankin' the chain here?

And if your sayin' they didn't fight....yeah...that's part of the record....but the Idea that Marvin ducked him....just seems a stretch.

Should champions ALWAYS dance to the sanctioning bodies music? Because often times they spew some pretty awful melodies.

You don't always fight the mandatory of course... Not if it's Morrade Hakkar who's going to put up a stinkfest... Or Bermane Stiverne

But if it's a tall, fast, skilled, undefeated, 38-0 British and European Champion---and otherwise you're only fighting once a year and avoiding the top Middleweights in the world so you can fight little tiny dudes??? Hagler's showings from fight to fight were going down hill as his Mugabi fight demonstrated.. At least go out with a true Middleweight Title Fight -- and by taking on by far the toughest Middleweight challenger you faced during your reign.

The toughest Middleweight you A-Hole... Hagler got tagged up by a ton of punches by raw swinger John Mugabi and then a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff -- with no tune-up fights -- beat his ass.. So yes, he would be a very tough guy for Hagler to handle at a time when Marv was fighting once a year.

And after Leonard beat Hagler he got dropped in his next fight by a weight drained Lalonde, who no casual fan ever heard of... And Leonard was knocked down in his previous fight to Hagler by 2nd rater Kevin Howard... What the Hell does that have to do with him beating Hagler???

Kalan wrote:Hagler DID duck Herol Graham... There's no and's, if's, or but's about it... Herol was a slick boxer, European and British Champion, and 38-0... Those were the reasons he was named mandatory challenger over Leonard or any other Middleweight in the world... If you don't fight your mandatory and you're fighting only once a year... Come on, he could easily have found the time to fight Herol Graham if he fought once a year since he was 29.

He fought twice in 1984 and once a year in '85, '86, and '87.. When you have that kind of schedule there no reason to be ducking mandatories.

Give it up Kalan.

No-one gives a hoot that Hagler chose to fight an ATG for a career high purse at a time he was slowing down & had lost his hunger.

Big deal that he was the so-called mandatory for some dubious sanctioning body; he wasn't world class & he wasn't box office, so it's no great loss.

As far as Hearns ducking McCallum goes... his losses to Barkley suggest that a fighter below McCallum's caliber was quite capable of beating him. People talk about Hearns as if the Barkley fights never happened.

It would have been interesting to see Hagler in the late 50s early 60s against guys like Hank, Tiger, Carter, Fernandez, Fullmer, Giambra, etc. That seems like a pretty deep era.

It would be MORE interesting if Hagler fought for a few more years and met some truly great Middleweights like Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and James Toney... If a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff knocked Hag off his throne -- I imagine those guys would knock the living shiit out of Hagler.

Kalan wrote:It would be MORE interesting if Hagler fought for a few more years and met some truly great Middleweights like Mike McCallum, Michael Nunn, and James Toney... If a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff knocked Hag off his throne -- I imagine those guys would knock the living shiit out of Hagler.

Possibly, but we will never know.

Hagler had clearly lost a step as far back as '85 when he fought Hearns, so what would the point in him hanging around to be potentially taken apart by much younger & bigger men with world class skills?

It would be completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Hagler would have turned Canelo and GGG into buckling bloody pulps. And Canelo and GGG are excellent fighters.

Nunn would have beaten an old hagler, McCallum and toney would not. He outboxes all if them in his prime. Not herol Graham though, he had hagler too intimidated to fight.

golden oldie wrote:

Kalan wrote:The toughest Middleweight you A-Hole... Hagler got tagged up by a ton of punches by raw swinger John Mugabi and then a Welterweight coming off a 3-year-layoff -- with no tune-up fights -- beat his ass.. So yes, he would be a very tough guy for Hagler to handle at a time when Marv was fighting once a year.

And after Leonard beat Hagler he got dropped in his next fight by a weight drained Lalonde, who no casual fan ever heard of... And Leonard was knocked down in his previous fight to Hagler by 2nd rater Kevin Howard... What the Hell does that have to do with him beating Hagler???

Listen crap for brains. EVERY TIME Graham went up in class he got beaten. A purely domestic level Frank Grant stopped him. Jackson nearly killed him. In the 2 years Hagler fought once per year 85, and 86, Graham was fighting at British level, then European ( 2 title defences ) Hagler meanwhile KO'd both of his opponents, both of whom it could well be argued were a class above Graham.

Meanwhile in 87 whilst Hagler lost to Leonard who was LEAGUES above Graham, lay off or not. Herol was preparing to lose to Kalambay, which he would do AGAIN 5 years later, but by a wider margin.

So tell us once again, exactly what it was about Graham that makes you think he could have given Hagler a meaningful fight?

Spot on.

I'm genuinely intrigued as to where Kalan has got this Herol Graham hangup in respect of Hagler's career from.

I wonder if he sat through Leonard v Hagler crying into his beer about Herol Graham's missed opportunity?

Does anybody really care that a European level at best fighter was the mandatory challenger for the discredited & laughable WBA?

I don't think that Herol Graham was in Willie Monroe, Bobby Watts, Juan Domingo Roldan or Vito Antuofermo's level. Not alone the great Thomas Hearns' level. Tommy would've made him disappear in a flash.

golden oldie wrote:exactly what it was about Graham that makes you think he could have given Hagler a meaningful fight?

Because imbecile, he was a very tall, slick, undefeated southpaw who was 38-0, the British and European Champion, and ranked number 1 at World Level... Hagler was looking particularly bad getting tagged up by wide open, raw swinger Mugabi. Hag was ready to be taken and never won another fight.

Syntax Error wrote: I'm genuinely intrigued as to where Kalan has got this Herol Graham hangup in respect of Hagler's career from ... Does anybody really care that a European level at best fighter was the mandatory challenger for the discredited & laughable WBA?

An undefeated British and European Champion, who's 38-0 and ranked number 1 in the world by the WBA isn't European level -- he's World Level..

I hate the numerous boxing orgs more than anyone -- but you play the Pro Boxing game the way it exists when your career is happening. The ideal way Professional Boxing might be setup 300 years from now is unavailable at present.. Leonard didn't think the WBA Super Welterweight Title was laughable. He went after it.. Besides Sugar Ray Leonard, other holders of the WBA Super Welterweight Title have been: Mike McCallum, Terry Norris, Miguel Cotto, Austin Trout, Canelo Alvarez, and Erislandy Lara -- how much did those great fighters laugh at their status???

WBA Middleweight Title has been held by Dick Tiger, Nino Benvenuti, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Rodrigo Valdez, Mike McCallum, Daniel Jacobs, and Gennady Golovkin -- all without laughing too a whole lot at the WBA -- but I'm sure they would all love to have 1 World Champion in every division.

golden oldie wrote:

Kalan wrote:

Syntax Error wrote: I'm genuinely intrigued as to where Kalan has got this Herol Graham hangup in respect of Hagler's career from ... Does anybody really care that a European level at best fighter was the mandatory challenger for the discredited & laughable WBA?

An undefeated British and European Champion, who's 38-0 and ranked number 1 in the world by the WBA isn't European level -- he's World Level..

I hate the numerous boxing orgs more than anyone -- but you play the Pro Boxing game the way it exists when your career is happening. The ideal way Professional Boxing might be setup 300 years from now is unavailable at present.. Leonard didn't think the WBA Super Welterweight Title was laughable. He went after it.. Besides Sugar Ray Leonard, other holders of the WBA Super Welterweight Title have been: Mike McCallum, Terry Norris, Miguel Cotto, Austin Trout, Canelo Alvarez, and Erislandy Lara -- how much did those great fighters laugh at their status???

WBA Middleweight Title has been held by Dick Tiger, Nino Benvenuti, Carlos Monzon, Marvin Hagler, Rodrigo Valdez, Mike McCallum, Daniel Jacobs, and Gennady Golovkin -- all without laughing too a whole lot at the WBA -- but I'm sure they would all love to have 1 World Champion in every division.

Jeez effing Christ, are you REALLY that dim? Governing bodies offer a spratt, egotistical fools like Leonard PAY them a sanction fee therefore they SANCTION mismatches. I. E. Leonard versus some numpty, and guess what? They pocket 500k, and he gets a MEANINGLESS bauble. That is how it worked.

You're the dimmest bulb on the board dimwit... The WBC was a worse actor than the WBA... They okay'd Leonard offering a multi-million dollar bribe to Donnie Lalonde to entice him to come down to 168 from his normal fight weight of 175 to fight for a "vacant" World Title for 10 X the money Lalonde ever made for any other fight... Then they okay'd Leonard picking up Lalonde's obscure Light Heavyweight Title in the same bout.. That's not allowed because you're making a guy come down 7lbs under his normal Title Defense weight so how do you deserve both World Titles??

Andre Ward didn't pick up Chad Dawson's 175-pound Title when they met at 168... And James Toney didn't pick up Iran Barkley's 175-pound Title at 168.

No we're not... You're claiming Hagler was justified in ignoring his justified and tough 38-0 mandatory when he was being indolent and fighting once a year -- because his mandatory was a WBA guy.. All the orgs are just as bad as the others and all on the take -- and probably the WBC is the worst.

Of course... Leonard's previous fight was at Welterweight and he had to jump 2 divisions -- making his debut at Middleweight versus Hagler.

That's a lot of years to take off -- before coming back with no tune-up fights and kicking ass on supposedly the best Middleweight.