BoxRec

MikeInOz wrote: ↑29 Jan 2018, 01:21

bollocks wrote: ↑28 Jan 2018, 05:46
Cant have been a NZer. Because anything good from NZ is usually claimed by Australia as their own

That's an outrageous smear. When has Australia ever done that, apart from with Phar Lap, Russell Crowe, Split Enz, lamingtons, Rob Whittaker, Rebecca Gibney, James Tamou, Keith Urban, Jane Campion, James Te Huna, Dragon, Jenny Morris, John Clarke and pavlova?

I work with 3 Kiwi brothers, one of which happens to be a topline rugby player. A while ago the Aus rugby officials somehow managed to get his Aus citizenship rushed through. So in effect they've recruiter a Kiwi to help us beat amongst others.... the Kiwis. Talk about s hitful

For Australia, Peter Jackson may have been the best.

Australia number 1 Lionel Rose.
Kostya is Russias number 1.

Ive never understood how a country can claim the best fighter that was born on their soil but left young, learned his craft and fought the vast majority of his career elsewhere. I.e. McLarnin, Langford, Fitzsimmons, etc. As far as I'm concerned Langford was a USA boxer, McLarnin either Canadian or USA, and Fitz NZ.

Check this thread out:

The GOATs of Boxing by State, Region, Country - viewtopic.php?f=22&t=213934

klompton wrote: ↑06 Feb 2018, 20:34 Ive never understood how a country can claim the best fighter that was born on their soil but left young, learned his craft and fought the vast majority of his career elsewhere. I.e. McLarnin, Langford, Fitzsimmons, etc. As far as I'm concerned Langford was a USA boxer, McLarnin either Canadian or USA, and Fitz NZ.

I guess, it's like the rap song that says "It ain't where you are from, is where you at". For example, rapper Ice T was born in NJ in the East Coast of the US. But, he is considered a West Coast rapper. The same is for Tupac. He was born in NYC, went to high school in Baltimore, but a lot of people claim him as a West Coast California rapper. That must be the case with the great boxers like Sam Langford, Bob Fitzsimmons and Jimmy McLarnin.

Jose Legra was born in Cuba. He was born and raised there, but he also claims Spain as his country.

klompton wrote: ↑06 Feb 2018, 20:34 Ive never understood how a country can claim the best fighter that was born on their soil but left young, learned his craft and fought the vast majority of his career elsewhere. I.e. McLarnin, Langford, Fitzsimmons, etc. As far as I'm concerned Langford was a USA boxer, McLarnin either Canadian or USA, and Fitz NZ.

It is kind of funny in some cases..
Do you happen to know how old Langford was when he came to the United States to live?

APerno wrote: ↑22 Jan 2018, 23:29 I am putting together my own map based on this discussion. Does anyone have an opinion on Puerto Rico: Who do you think best represents Puerto Rico - Trinidad, Camacho, or Rosario, or . . .?

Camacho was a New Yorker. Yes Puerto Rican, but mostly NY. Rosario an all time great, but his losses were dreadful. Gomez a strong candidate. Although he reigned FOREVER at 122 with the exception Zarate and Pintor he really beat a group of nobodies. Granted not his fault. His third title was bogus over Lockridge and was really spent by 126 anyhow. Trinidad’s achievements are exceptional. Long reigning welterweight champ. 2/3 of 154 title and 1/3 middleweight title. I love all these fighters but I have to go Trinidad.

OH AND HOW CAN DURÁN NOT BE ON HERE!!!!!!

Brian Seneca wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 07:20 Camacho was a New Yorker. Yes Puerto Rican, but mostly NY. Rosario an all time great, but his losses were dreadful. Gomez a strong candidate. Although he reigned FOREVER at 122 with the exception Zarate and Pintor he really beat a group of nobodies. Granted not his fault. His third title was bogus over Lockridge and was really spent by 126 anyhow. Trinidad’s achievements are exceptional. Long reigning welterweight champ. 2/3 of 154 title and 1/3 middleweight title. I love all these fighters but I have to go Trinidad.

OH AND HOW CAN DURÁN NOT BE ON HERE!!!!!!

Duran is not Puerto Rican.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 07:42 Duran is not Puerto Rican.

I know he is Panamanian. But he is not on the list? How can anyone from Panama or anywhere else actually be better than Duran, especially at lightweight

Brian Seneca wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 07:20 Camacho was a New Yorker. Yes Puerto Rican, but mostly NY. Rosario an all time great, but his losses were dreadful. Gomez a strong candidate. Although he reigned FOREVER at 122 with the exception Zarate and Pintor he really beat a group of nobodies. Granted not his fault. His third title was bogus over Lockridge and was really spent by 126 anyhow. Trinidad’s achievements are exceptional. Long reigning welterweight champ. 2/3 of 154 title and 1/3 middleweight title. I love all these fighters but I have to go Trinidad.

OH AND HOW CAN DURÁN NOT BE ON HERE!!!!!!

You won't find many bigger Tito fans than me, but by far and away the greatest fighter to ever come from Puerto Rico is Carlos Ortiz.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 10:20 You won't find many bigger Tito fans than me, but by far and away the greatest fighter to ever come from Puerto Rico is Carlos Ortiz.

This is true. I forgot about him. Before my time

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 10:20 You won't find many bigger Tito fans than me, but by far and away the greatest fighter to ever come from Puerto Rico is Carlos Ortiz.

It is the great Wilfredo Gomez for me. The way he dismantled the great Carlos Zarate in only 4 rounds was very impressive.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 16:56 It is the great Wilfredo Gomez for me. The way he dismantled the great Carlos Zarate in only 4 rounds was very impressive.

Gomez was fantastic also. More explosive and dazzling too. I see Gomez and Trinidad close overall but a distance behind Ortiz.

I just see Ortiz is clearly ahead. Think about Ortiz vs. Gomez. Ortiz was THE lightweight champion for so long. Means so much more than being the dominant champion of a junior or super division. Look at the caliber of fighters Ortiz had to beat to earn a title shot - Rosi, Matthews, Charnley, Busso, Vailant, Andrade plus the guys he fought at junior welterweight - Loi, Lane, Torres that's before we even get into the quality of Ortiz' title reign - Brown, Laguna (x2), Ramos (x2), Elorde (x2), Bizzarro, Vailant again etc;

Benitez has to be considered. He beat Cervantes at 17, and also beat Palomino and Duran. Was competitive against Hearns and Leonard.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 11:15 It is kind of funny in some cases..
Do you happen to know how old Langford was when he came to the United States to live?

the great american boxer sam langford was 14 or 15 when he first came to live in america

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 11:02 Benitez has to be considered. He beat Cervantes at 17, and also beat Palomino and Duran. Was competitive against Hearns and Leonard.

Benitez has the most outstanding single achievement in beating Cervantes at 17 and quite possibly the Duran win is as good as any of the other guys best wins but he lacked the dominance, consistency and longevity displayed by the others IMO.

Barbados - Joe Walcott

Syntax Error wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 14:12 Barbados - Joe Walcott

He's from Guyana. Learned to box in Boston I believe. I think he just spent some of his childhood in Barbados.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 14:04 Benitez has the most outstanding single achievement in beating Cervantes at 17 and quite possibly the Duran win is as good as any of the other guys best wins but he lacked the dominance, consistency and longevity displayed by the others IMO.

I guess he lacked the dominance, but that was mainly because Leonard and Hearns were around. Ortiz and Gomez didn't have to deal with anyone that good.

As for consistency - The only guys that Benitez lost to over a 7 year period were Leonard and Duran. The draw with Curry should count against him, but overall he was pretty consistent for several years.

As for longevity, well technically he started his career before Gomez and his last fight was after Gomez's. Benitez actually won more fights than Gomez.
Benitez was at or near the top from 1976-1982. Gomez was there from 1977-1984; that is not much longer.

Ortiz was on top a little longer than those two, (1959-1967) but I would argue that Benitez did more in his time than Ortiz (or Gomez for that matter) during theirs.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 16:01 I guess he lacked the dominance, but that was mainly because Leonard and Hearns were around. Ortiz and Gomez didn't have to deal with anyone that good.

As for consistency - The only guys that Benitez lost to over a 7 year period were Leonard and Duran. The draw with Curry should count against him, but overall he was pretty consistent for several years.

As for longevity, well technically he started his career before Gomez and his last fight was after Gomez's. Benitez actually won more fights than Gomez.
Benitez was at or near the top from 1976-1982. Gomez was there from 1977-1984; that is not much longer.

Ortiz was on top a little longer than those two, (1959-1967) but I would argue that Benitez did more in his time than Ortiz (or Gomez for that matter) during theirs.

Fair point.

Benitez also had the fight with Weston. I know it doesn't always work like this but Ortiz and Gomez don't struggle like that with a guy like Weston. Not a bad fighter at all, in fact he was a good one but shouldn't be going that close with a post-Cervantes Benitez.

He was never a dominant champion in their manner IMO. He'd win a title then vacate it or win it then lose it. Of course, it's hard to hold it against him losing to Leonard and Hearns. Ortiz cemented himself as an absolute all-time great at 135 in a way Benitez never did, as did Gomez at 122 though 135 is obviously the best of those divisions. Gomez has distinctions like the fact he completely cleaned out the division, made 17 defenses all by KO that's why I think he gets a slight up on Benitez and Trinidad but not enough to close in closely enough on Ortiz. Ortiz' overall depth of resume was incredible, he fought often and all over and it's easy to forget he was also brilliant at 140 too.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 14:27 He's from Guyana. Learned to box in Boston I believe. I think he just spent some of his childhood in Barbados.

Fair points.

I should credit him to Guyana instead.

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑13 Jan 2018, 18:29 Lomachenko is the best fighter from Ukraine, Wladimir Klitschko is the most accomplished. So it's definitely not Vitali

I'd probably already put Lomachenko over Wladimir in all honesty.

chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 17:13 Gomez was fantastic also. More explosive and dazzling too. I see Gomez and Trinidad close overall but a distance behind Ortiz.

I just see Ortiz is clearly ahead. Think about Ortiz vs. Gomez. Ortiz was THE lightweight champion for so long. Means so much more than being the dominant champion of a junior or super division. Look at the caliber of fighters Ortiz had to beat to earn a title shot - Rosi, Matthews, Charnley, Busso, Vailant, Andrade plus the guys he fought at junior welterweight - Loi, Lane, Torres that's before we even get into the quality of Ortiz' title reign - Brown, Laguna (x2), Ramos (x2), Elorde (x2), Bizzarro, Vailant again etc;

Like I said he was before my time but WOW the title caliber of talent is stupid. I’ve seen the Sugar Ramos fights and a few others. I think he was retired by the early 1970’s when I was just a kid

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Jun 2019, 11:02 Benitez has to be considered. He beat Cervantes at 17, and also beat Palomino and Duran. Was competitive against Hearns and Leonard.

I like Wilfred a lot. He never held on to his titles very long and put in indifferent performances. Had he actually trained for Leonard we may not even be discussing Ray as we do today. Carlos, Wilfredo and Felix reigned for years. Yes Benitez resume is VERY impressive but his lack of focus/dedication is the difference