BoxRec

Badhusker wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 20:04

oogiebe wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 20:01

Boxing Writer wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 19:58
I think Wilder is just not that smart. I think Breland and Deas are getting the best they can get from Wilder. AJ seems a smarter man comparing to Wilder so he was able to learn more in less years. But Wilder's awkwardness gives him some advantages the same way as Ricardo Mayorga was so dangerous because of his crazy style.

He's not dumb. He had a late start and fast track in boxing. I've said many times AJ is the better boxer. We shall see when it comes to the fight.

The better boxer doesn't always win. Ortiz is a better boxer than Wilder, but he was KO'd.

To be technical, yes...AJ is the better boxer as was many of Wilder's opponents. Wilder is undisciplined while AJ is amazingly coachable. That last point was what really turned the tide against Klitchko. His corner said throw combinations and AJ came out and began to take the fight back from Wlad.

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 16:08

Badhusker wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 20:04

oogiebe wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 20:01

He's not dumb. He had a late start and fast track in boxing. I've said many times AJ is the better boxer. We shall see when it comes to the fight.

The better boxer doesn't always win. Ortiz is a better boxer than Wilder, but he was KO'd.

To be technical, yes...AJ is the better boxer as was many of Wilder's opponents. Wilder is undisciplined while AJ is amazingly coachable. That last point was what really turned the tide against Klitchko. His corner said throw combinations and AJ came out and began to take the fight back from Wlad.

There were 2 turnings of the tide in that fight... Joshua dominated early and Wladimir's corner was blasting him for not throwing enough and throwing hard... Which he did... Even when he was knocked down Wlad was determined to throw and it paid off in the 6th with a great punch.. It was a learning experience for Joshua... He had to bide his time and play defense for a couple rounds and work his way back into the fight... He took over with brutal, sharp combinations and his conditioning paid off big time... He was able to sustain his offense into the 11th with hard combinations and finished Wladimir off with 3 knockdowns to 1 -- and a finishing salvo on the ropes.

I wasn't impressed with Ortiz's physical conditioning or speed... He looked brilliant versus Jennings a couple years ago but he's 39 this month.. For some boxers that's old.. He looks like a middle aged man on high blood pressure meds... I felt sorry for him... His dreams were crushed.. His eyes were so damned big and his hopes were so high when he hurt Deontay.

I am not convinced AJ beats that version of Ortiz.

marvelous marv wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 21:28 I am not convinced AJ beats that version of Ortiz.

That's why you are "marvelous." I agree completely.

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 21:56

marvelous marv wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 21:28 I am not convinced AJ beats that version of Ortiz.

That's why you are "marvelous." I agree completely.

If you're not convinced yet... Hmmm... That means you're kind of leaning towards Josh but still on the fence.

I'm convinced AJ beats anybody right now... Until Dubois comes up he has a clear path... He's too skilled for Wilder and he's too young for Ortiz... Ortiz is 39 this month and that's an old man... That's the age Wladimir was when he froze up versus Tyson Fury... It's kind of funny... Wladimir looked fabulous versus Pulev at 38... He looked terrible at 39... He looked damned good vs Josh at 41... In fact I couldn't believe how fast and smooth he looked.. Roy Jones said Wladimir turned the clock back and looked the best he'd ever seen him.

I'm glad Wladimir turned down the massive money for the rematch... Quitting on a high note is more important.

RandomUsername wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 22:42 AJ vs Wilder yes please. Wilder was almost a joke a few weeks ago though, without Ortiz on his record I wouldnt really care about this discussion. The thing is though that Tyson Fury is the champ, AJ is the #1 challanger and Wilder is #2. AJ VS Fury is the most interesting fight possible for the HW division.

NOBODY recognizes Fury as Heavyweight Champion of the World... He abandoned the title not to long after he went up to 350 pounds... When he started trying to lose it, he knew he could never get into the necessary physical condition in time to meet Wladimir in their rematch so he FO'd... You might think it's better than Buster Douglas coming in super FAT for Holyfield and picking up 25 million dollars for a SHITT effort.. Everybody was pissed off, but the promoter still had to pay Fat Boy Douglas his 25MM.... Fury could have picked up at least 20 million for showing up and laying down... I can't believe how idiotic the man is.....pissing off millions.

RandomUsername wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 22:42 AJ vs Wilder yes please. Wilder was almost a joke a few weeks ago though, without Ortiz on his record I wouldnt really care about this discussion. The thing is though that Tyson Fury is the champ, AJ is the #1 challanger and Wilder is #2. AJ VS Fury is the most interesting fight possible for the HW division.

How can Tyson Fury be the champ when he hasn't fought in going on 2.5 years & hasn't even got a fight on the horizon?

You can't just win the title & never fight again & still be the champion.

Saying that, I do agree that a Fury bout is even more interesting.

It's the unknown with him, as he is still young, but will be be the same as he was & even so, would he be good enough to defeat Joshua anyway.

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 21:19

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 16:08

Badhusker wrote: ↑10 Mar 2018, 20:04

The better boxer doesn't always win. Ortiz is a better boxer than Wilder, but he was KO'd.

To be technical, yes...AJ is the better boxer as was many of Wilder's opponents. Wilder is undisciplined while AJ is amazingly coachable. That last point was what really turned the tide against Klitchko. His corner said throw combinations and AJ came out and began to take the fight back from Wlad.

There were 2 turnings of the tide in that fight... Joshua dominated early and Wladimir's corner was blasting him for not throwing enough and throwing hard... Which he did... Even when he was knocked down Wlad was determined to throw and it paid off in the 6th with a great punch.. It was a learning experience for Joshua... He had to bide his time and play defense for a couple rounds and work his way back into the fight... He took over with brutal, sharp combinations and his conditioning paid off big time... He was able to sustain his offense into the 11th with hard combinations and finished Wladimir off with 3 knockdowns to 1 -- and a finishing salvo on the ropes.

I wasn't impressed with Ortiz's physical conditioning or speed... He looked brilliant versus Jennings a couple years ago but he's 39 this month.. For some boxers that's old.. He looks like a middle aged man on high blood pressure meds... I felt sorry for him... His dreams were crushed.. His eyes were so damned big and his hopes were so high when he hurt Deontay.

Was Ortiz a fat old man with poor physical conditioning, a lack of speed & high blood pressure before or after he lost to Wilder?

For years, all I ever heard was how good this guy was & that the likes of Wilder would never fight him, yet, Wilder fights him, takes everything he has to offer & splatters him & now he's apparently not that good?

Syntax Error wrote: ↑21 Mar 2018, 06:51

Kalan wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 21:19

oogiebe wrote: ↑16 Mar 2018, 16:08

To be technical, yes...AJ is the better boxer as was many of Wilder's opponents. Wilder is undisciplined while AJ is amazingly coachable. That last point was what really turned the tide against Klitchko. His corner said throw combinations and AJ came out and began to take the fight back from Wlad.

There were 2 turnings of the tide in that fight... Joshua dominated early and Wladimir's corner was blasting him for not throwing enough and throwing hard... Which he did... Even when he was knocked down Wlad was determined to throw and it paid off in the 6th with a great punch.. It was a learning experience for Joshua... He had to bide his time and play defense for a couple rounds and work his way back into the fight... He took over with brutal, sharp combinations and his conditioning paid off big time... He was able to sustain his offense into the 11th with hard combinations and finished Wladimir off with 3 knockdowns to 1 -- and a finishing salvo on the ropes.

I wasn't impressed with Ortiz's physical conditioning or speed... He looked brilliant versus Jennings a couple years ago but he's 39 this month.. For some boxers that's old.. He looks like a middle aged man on high blood pressure meds... I felt sorry for him... His dreams were crushed.. His eyes were so damned big and his hopes were so high when he hurt Deontay.

Was Ortiz a fat old man with poor physical conditioning, a lack of speed & high blood pressure before or after he lost to Wilder?

For years, all I ever heard was how good this guy was & that the likes of Wilder would never fight him, yet, Wilder fights him, takes everything he has to offer & splatters him & now he's apparently not that good?

A lot of hypocrisy discussing Wilder. First we heard, he was going to get blown out by a highly skilled and dangerous Cuban, and then...he KO's an old man....Ridiculous. Can't wait til he KO's Chicken Joshua. LOL!

This is a pick'em fight. Seeing how Ortiz fought vs. Wilder, he was far from a old washed up fighter. Ortiz fought a great fight, unfortunately for him he was against a young athletic guy with a good gas tank and is probably the hardest puncher in the sport. I'm not sure the version of Vlad that fought AJ or AJ beat that version of Ortiz. I at least wouldn't have made them huge betting favorites.

AJ vs. Wilder is one of the biggest HW fights in a long time. There's so much significance in the outcome of that fight.

NateJR wrote: ↑21 Mar 2018, 10:57 This is a pick'em fight. Seeing how Ortiz fought vs. Wilder, he was far from a old washed up fighter. Ortiz fought a great fight, unfortunately for him he was against a young athletic guy with a good gas tank and is probably the hardest puncher in the sport. I'm not sure the version of Vlad that fought AJ or AJ beat that version of Ortiz. I at least wouldn't have made them huge betting favorites.

AJ vs. Wilder is one of the biggest HW fights in a long time. There's so much significance in the outcome of that fight.

Yessiree!!!!

I think Wilder knocks Joshua out. His speed is a huge advantage as is his movement and general athleticism, Joshua is much slower and robotic while being technically superior. I just think that Wilder catches him at some point and finishes the job.

As far as Wlad is concerned he was at the time of the Joshua fight IMO a bit of an unknown quantity, he was 41 years old and coming off a loss that had happened 18 months prior. I doubt Wlad in his prime loses to Fury and I'm convinced prime Wlad knocks Joshua out.

p4p1 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2018, 23:15 I think Wilder knocks Joshua out. His speed is a huge advantage as is his movement and general athleticism, Joshua is much slower and robotic while being technically superior. I just think that Wilder catches him at some point and finishes the job.

As far as Wlad is concerned he was at the time of the Joshua fight IMO a bit of an unknown quantity, he was 41 years old and coming off a loss that had happened 18 months prior. I doubt Wlad in his prime loses to Fury and I'm convinced prime Wlad knocks Joshua out.

how do you think aj-ortiz would go

wilder can deffo catch aj, though the way i read a lot of debates it seems ppl get lost in wilders power and forget that ajs a very good 20-0 (20) puncher himself. he can catch and finish pretty much anyone too.

who gets there first? hmmm, well im not totally sure, but i deffo think wilder gets caught more and has more issues with b level opposition then aj has.

I think the key to this fight will be the intelligence of AJ. He is just a smarter fighter and person and will be able to stay calm and wait for the chance to take him out, like he did against the much more experienced and better boxer Wladimir Klitschko.

Dottier Charredo wrote: ↑21 Mar 2018, 23:45 I think the key to this fight will be the intelligence of AJ. He is just a smarter fighter and person and will be able to stay calm and wait for the chance to take him out, like he did against the much more experienced and better boxer Wladimir Klitschko.

That's a terrific point. I think one of the things that will be key to this fight is just how much Joshua learned from the fight with Wlad. I think that fight was going well and he, PERHAPS, became just a bit complacent and got caught with a very good shot that very nearly cost him the fight. But, he weathered the storm quite well (with a little help from Wlad who was never a "jump right on top of you" kind of finisher).

If Joshua is an intelligent fighter capable of adapting and improving, that would be a very bad sign for Wilder who would benefit greatly from a similar momentary lapse from Joshua. All due respect to Wlad by the way who fought a very good fight that night, not trying to minimize his performance.

p4p1 wrote: ↑21 Mar 2018, 23:15As far as Wlad is concerned he was at the time of the Joshua fight IMO a bit of an unknown quantity, he was 41 years old and coming off a loss that had happened 18 months prior. I doubt Wlad in his prime loses to Fury and I'm convinced prime Wlad knocks Joshua out.

Agreed. If you re-watch the last 5 rounds of AJ-Klitschko, after Wlad knocked AJ down in the 6th, you will notice that Wlad seems to be favoring his right hand and not throwing it with authority after the 6th. Not sure if he might have hurt it in the 6th but he definitely was not throwing the right with the same authority as he did up to and including the knockdown. See what you think...

Like a Boss wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:31

Badhusker wrote: ↑14 Mar 2018, 21:05 Most people don't mention the trouble Wilder had because Ortiz was a 6'4" very skilled and experienced southpaw. Maybe that is why Hearn steered Joshua away from him.

Only Joshua's chin will save him vs Wilder, and I'm not sure it's that good.

Ortiz is still one of the most dangerous heavyweights out there. That's why Hearn took control of him, and very probably why Hearn planted Ortiz in the path of Wilder vs Joshua.

You have to wonder how keen Hearn really is to make Joshua-Wilder? Wilder is the biggest risk to Eddie's cash cow out there and there is plenty of easy money to be made without engaging with Wilder.

I am afraid that you are right...

My guess is we won't be seeing this fight for a long time

What comes to the fight itself.... I think that AJ will win. Wilder has punchers chance against anyone but I see AJ as the better boxer.

It is easy to say that Wilder has more power, speed and stamina. Skills are harder to quantify. I think that AJ has better fundamentals. Hes not relaying on power and landing that one punch miracle. At the end of the day skills pay the bills.

I also don't think that stamina would be that big of a factor in AJ vs Wilder fight. Wilder is not going to force enough action to make AJ's stamina fail. The fight would most likely be slow chess match type of fight.

Th first Ortiz KD is real testament to Wilders power. The punch hit Ortiz straight high on the forehead. Ortiz could probably take the same kind of hit from most other HW's without blinking. Not from Wilder thou

I am with the OP in the opinion that my money will be going on Wilder in this one. It will DEFINITELY come down to heart and I love both guys in this department and I think that's why the fight will be fantastic. Since both guys have displayed huge hearts then maybe it will just come down to who is best prepared from a conditioning and game plan point of view.

The OP had a great point about AJ's lack of head movement being a perfect situation for Wilder. Though he didn't show it against Ortiz, Wilder's jab is fantastic. He kept it in the holster against Ortiz because Ortiz was snapping back with very quick counters. I didn't realize Ortiz was so quick until that fight.

I'd argue that Wilder's win over Ortiz is the most quality win between Wilder and Joshua. I can understand those that say Wlad but I just feel Ortiz fought beautifully that night and it was a remarkable win for Wilder. He deserves tons of credit for gutting that one out.

I certainly think Wilder is the more concussive puncher, most guys he hits are out for the count whereas AJ usually has to club guys several times before they drop or the ref jumps in. That sort of power can take anyone out.

While I think Joshua has the beating of wilder, I definitely agree he needs to work on his head/lateral movement when they fight cos if he doesn't them wild wilder blows have a much better chance of catching him cold and ending the fight

Within a 12 round fight it seems inevitable that Wilder will land something heavy at some point. What happens after that will determine who wins.

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 07:39 I certainly think Wilder is the more concussive puncher, most guys he hits are out for the count whereas AJ usually has to club guys several times before they drop or the ref jumps in. That sort of power can take anyone out.

Something Hearn is only too aware of, and regardless of the talk he is approaching the prospect of Joshua fighting Wilder with great care.

any argument based on wilders jab being fantastic is pretty crap tbh. your just gifting him abilities if your gonna say that his jab is great. might as well say ajs got amazing counter punching or something like that. wilders jab is underdeveloped if anything. saying wilder has a great jab just stinks of simplistically associating height and length with a standout jab. washington out jabbed him ffs.

also crazy how many ppl are talking like 'well wilder will catch him eventually, its only a matter of time'. lol, you make it sound as if hes the only puncher in the fight. have you seen aj? hes 20-0 (20) and has layed dudes out too. i dont know when exactly it became that only one of these guys can hurt and stop the other.

and you can say he stops ppl standing and after bunches, but its not like wilders stopped everyone with one shot. he didnt stop stiverne the first time despite landing loads. he didnt drop duhaupas in 11 rounds. arreola retired between rounds , not after being flattened. molina, ortiz, etc made it late and after having taken big shots earlier.

wilders had far more issues with b level comp then aj has. hes far more open to be hit. ppl say ajs slow and doesnt move the head, but he wasnt the one eric molina was tagging. he wasnt getting outjabbed by washington or having super competitive rounds vs szpilka.

Like a Boss wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 14:56

Controversial wrote: ↑22 Mar 2018, 07:39 I certainly think Wilder is the more concussive puncher, most guys he hits are out for the count whereas AJ usually has to club guys several times before they drop or the ref jumps in. That sort of power can take anyone out.

Something Hearn is only too aware of, and regardless of the talk he is approaching the prospect of Joshua fighting Wilder with great care.

ya, hearn really put ortiz up as a roadblock to the fight, right

maybe one day youll be able to explain how

it would be dumb not to be mindful of wilders power, even if confident in aj getting the job done.