BoxRec

Kalan wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 23:45

SenorPipino wrote: ↑09 Apr 2018, 22:55 Same thing I've seen for more than 50 years.

Liston comes forward, head thrust toward Ali. Sticks out a jab that falls woefully short and the champ clocks him with a chopping right.

Down goes Sonny Liston.

Where's the controversy?

WHERE'S THE CONTROVERSY???? WHAAA DA FK??

Ali DEFIED the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner and ran around the ring... Walcott FAILED to suspend the count in accordance with the neutral corner rule... Walcott NEVER gave Liston a count because Ali NEVER went to a neutral corner... Instead of calling TIME cuz Nat Fleischer was screaming at him, Walcott walks over to Fleischer.... Liston and Ali resume fighting without supervision .... Ali attacks and misses a bunch of followup punches, proving Liston's refexes are intact and he could easily've continued... Walcott, Ali, and Liston all thought the fight was still on because there was no count.

If The count was paused according to the rules Ali would have either been disqualified or the fight would have continued... Liston didn't break a single rule... Ali Did... Walcott never looked at the rule book and neither did Nat Fleischer who WASN'T an official and had NO BUSINESS interjecting himself into the officiating of the fight... Walcott was smart enough to know that, but he was just so discombobulated and fuzzy he messed up royally.

Instead of setting things right -- the Boxing Commission made ex-con Liston the fall guy... Their actions were criminal.

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:33 I would say throughout his career Ali got way with much, maybe more than any other modern era fighter, e.g. I always thought Ali hooking Frazier's head and pulling him into his chest for 12 rounds( Ali-Frazier II) was an extremely unfair night; a night of favoritism ......

Rule 1: Fighters tend to get better after they win a championship (Angelo Dundee)
Rule 2: A fighter who loses by KO in a big fight will usually lose the rematch quicker. (history)
Yea, I say Ali stops him inside of six rounds.

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:37 So this violation of the rules, which had no effect on the fight bothers you, but excessive clinching doesn't?

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:24

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:37 So this violation of the rules, which had no effect on the fight bothers you, but excessive clinching doesn't?

YES it DOES!!! .... ALI set the World Record for excessive clinching in a Heavyweight Championship Fight... Ali grabbed George Foreman 20 times in the 1st round of their fight... Doing such things as wrestling and shoving Foreman's head down... Again The referee Zach Clayton was in Ali's pocket and never even warned Ali for the excessive holding and wrestling... So excessive clinching such as Muhammad Ali engaged in bothers me a lot..

No effect on the fight???? NO other boxer in HISTORY as ever gotten away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner... Ali's DIFYANT REFUSAL to obey Walcott's orders to comply with the Neutral Corner Rule changed the outcome.. Liston was a smashing KO puncher and had a good chance to knock Ali out cold had the fight continued.

And you're oblivious to facts... You say Liston quit when the referee inappropriately stopped the fight... Makes no sense.

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 05:58

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:24

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:37 So this violation of the rules, which had no effect on the fight bothers you, but excessive clinching doesn't?

YES it DOES!!! .... ALI set the World Record for excessive clinching in a Heavyweight Championship Fight... Ali grabbed George Foreman 20 times in the 1st round of their fight... Doing such things as wrestling and shoving Foreman's head down... Again The referee Zach Clayton was in Ali's pocket and never even warned Ali for the excessive holding and wrestling... So excessive clinching such as Muhammad Ali engaged in bothers me a lot.

No effect on the fight???? NO other boxer in HISTORY as ever gotten away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner... Ali's DIFYANT REFUSAL to obey Walcott's orders to comply with the Neutral Corner Rule changed the outcome.. Liston was a smashing KO puncher and had a good chance to knock Ali out cold had the fight continued.

And you're oblivious to facts... You say Liston quit when the referee inappropriately stopped the fight... Makes no sense.

Liston got thrashed the first time. The second he didn't take a dive or get hurt bad. He got smacked with a punch he never saw, and stayed down. Getting up was useless, so he quit. Never brought up Ali just Wlad. Old Ali and prime Ali has been explained to you repeatedly. Liston quit and only bothered to get back up because Ali let him know everyone would think it was fixed. That's what got him reluctantly off the canvas. "Prime" Wlad spent an entire decade riding his opponents but it's ok. Ali stands over some fool he knows he embarrassed into quitting, and you're bothered.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:05

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:33 I would say throughout his career Ali got way with much, maybe more than any other modern era fighter, e.g. I always thought Ali hooking Frazier's head and pulling him into his chest for 12 rounds( Ali-Frazier II) was an extremely unfair night; a night of favoritism ......

Rule 1: Fighters tend to get better after they win a championship (Angelo Dundee)
Rule 2: A fighter who loses by KO in a big fight will usually lose the rematch quicker. (history)
Yea, I say Ali stops him inside of six rounds.

I DON'T... I say Liston wins by 1st round KO if the fight were allowed to continue... Ali was attacking recklessly and was bound to leave himself wide open for one the the greatest punchers in the history of the sport...

Rule 1 & 2... How did Ingemar Johansson do after he won the title??? Patterson obliterated Ingo in the rematch... Same thing could have happened here... Liston had one HELL of a lot more punching power than Patterson....

Besides, Ali didn't win by KO in Liston 1..... The fight was DEAD EVEN on the cards and Liston suffered a severe injury in an early round... Ali didn't win because he was better... He won because Liston fought 3 rounds in 3 years and was rusty as a bucket of bolts – and was susceptible to an injury such as happened to his left deltoid and biceps.

I’m glad you acknowledge that Ali was a fouler who received favoritism from the officials. The next step is to acknowledge Liston was treated shabbily and History should acknowledge that Liston was cheated and mistreated.

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 11:27

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:05

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 00:33 I would say throughout his career Ali got way with much, maybe more than any other modern era fighter, e.g. I always thought Ali hooking Frazier's head and pulling him into his chest for 12 rounds( Ali-Frazier II) was an extremely unfair night; a night of favoritism ......

Rule 1: Fighters tend to get better after they win a championship (Angelo Dundee)
Rule 2: A fighter who loses by KO in a big fight will usually lose the rematch quicker. (history)
Yea, I say Ali stops him inside of six rounds.

I DON'T... I say Liston wins by 1st round KO if the fight were allowed to continue... Ali was attacking recklessly and was bound to leave himself wide open for one the the greatest punchers in the history of the sport...

Rule 1 & 2... How did Ingemar Johansson do after he won the title??? Patterson obliterated Ingo in the rematch... Same thing could have happened here... Liston had one HELL of a lot more punching power than Patterson....

Besides, Ali didn't win by KO in Liston 1..... The fight was DEAD EVEN on the cards and Liston suffered a severe injury in an early round... Ali didn't win because he was better... He won because Liston fought 3 rounds in 3 years and was rusty as a bucket of bolts – and was susceptible to an injury such as happened to his left deltoid and biceps.

I’m glad you acknowledge that Ali was a fouler who received favoritism from the officials. The next step is to acknowledge Liston was treated shabbily and History should acknowledge that Liston was cheated and mistreated.

Hey grab a handful of reality bub, by the time Liston got up the the first round was almost over.

Of course both outcomes happen in rematches, but the more likely outcome is the one where the fighter loses even quicker the second time out; that's why rematch victories become legendary because they're rare: Patterson-Johansson II; Zale-Graziano II - but the list is longer in the other direction.

I don't know what the judges scores were for Clay-Liston I, but Ali was taking Liston to school in Miami, maybe that's why Liston quit, maybe not, but he was losing that fight. By the six round Ali was in his face, bullying him and mocking him.

OK, so how about you acknowledging Ali power against Bonavena; for 15th round punches those were very hard shots.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 11:43

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 11:27

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:05

I DON'T... I say Liston wins by 1st round KO if the fight were allowed to continue... Ali was attacking recklessly and was bound to leave himself wide open for one the the greatest punchers in the history of the sport...

Rule 1 & 2... How did Ingemar Johansson do after he won the title??? Patterson obliterated Ingo in the rematch... Same thing could have happened here... Liston had one HELL of a lot more punching power than Patterson....

Besides, Ali didn't win by KO in Liston 1..... The fight was DEAD EVEN on the cards and Liston suffered a severe injury in an early round... Ali didn't win because he was better... He won because Liston fought 3 rounds in 3 years and was rusty as a bucket of bolts – and was susceptible to an injury such as happened to his left deltoid and biceps.

I’m glad you acknowledge that Ali was a fouler who received favoritism from the officials. The next step is to acknowledge Liston was treated shabbily and History should acknowledge that Liston was cheated and mistreated.

Hey grab a handful of reality bub, by the time Liston got up the the first round was almost over.

Of course both outcomes happen in rematches, but the more likely outcome is the one where the fighter loses even quicker the second time out; that's why rematch victories become legendary because they're rare: Patterson-Johansson II; Zale-Graziano II - but the list is longer in the other direction.

I don't know what the judges scores were for Clay-Liston I, but Ali was taking Liston to school in Miami, maybe that's why Liston quit, maybe not, but he was losing that fight. By the six round Ali was in his face, bullying him and mocking him.

OK, so how about you acknowledging Ali power against Bonavena; for 15th round punches those were very hard shots.

I'm being real BUB.

You're seeing only what you want to see... You're blind to the facts... The first fight was EVEN though Liston was fighting injured for most of the fight... If you don't know what the judges' scores were TAKE A LOOK AND SEE!!! ... Liston only took terrific punishment in the 6th with his left arm nearly incapacitated...

There was plenty of time in the first round of the rematch to score a KO shot... It takes 1 second to throw and land one... You're not saved by the bell... And it was a 15-round fight... Liston had plenty of time to win it and he was CHEATED.

Ali cheated in the Bonavena Fight too... He didn't go to, and stay in, a neutral corner for the counts.

Bonavena was a little tyke who weighed 203... The dude had a lantern jaw that you couldn't miss with a punch... Jimmy Ellis fought as a Middleweight for most of his career and decked Bonavena twice... Bonavena was club-footed as well -- possibly the most awkward and hittable top Heavyweight Challenger in the History of the sport.

ewenhay wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 17:50 I don't understand why people still call conspiracy in this fight. It was a legitimate knockdown. Liston eventually got up and the fight was ridiculously stopped through inept refereeing not because of some conspiracy.

I understand why there may have been doubts at the time but the footage available now surely rules out any phantom punch or fix theory?

oogiebe wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 17:52

ewenhay wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 17:50 I don't understand why people still call conspiracy in this fight. It was a legitimate knockdown. Liston eventually got up and the fight was ridiculously stopped through inept refereeing not because of some conspiracy.

I understand why there may have been doubts at the time but the footage available now surely rules out any phantom punch or fix theory?

There was a lot of confusion and people with no lives love conspiracies. Simply put.

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 18:03

oogiebe wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 17:52

ewenhay wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 17:50 I don't understand why people still call conspiracy in this fight. It was a legitimate knockdown. Liston eventually got up and the fight was ridiculously stopped through inept refereeing not because of some conspiracy.

I understand why there may have been doubts at the time but the footage available now surely rules out any phantom punch or fix theory?

There was a lot of confusion and people with no lives love conspiracies. Simply put.

Ah you're no fun, we haven't even begun to explore whether the Nation of Islam had coerced Liston. [Just kidding; but that one was going around for a while too. That they had threatened to kill him if he won.]

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 16:35
I guess Muhammad has a very different opinion of himself and Liston, then you do.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 18:22

APerno wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 16:35
I guess Muhammad has a very different opinion of himself and Liston, then you do.

What do you EXPECT Ali's outrageously egotistic opinion of himself to be??? And his opinion of Liston?

What would you expect Liston to think of himself? .... and of Ali??? .... Just the opposite.

You’re obfuscating the issue again, as always... Is this subject about Ali breaking the rules or Liston breaking the rules??? And who was the dirty fighter who deserved a DQ??? Who was the clean fighter who didn’t break a single rule??

I've seen carbolated Vaseline around in Boxing gyms a lot... It's used to slough off callouses, scar tissue or rough areas of the skin over a period of time... It makes the skin nice and smooth if you’re an expert with it. You also use a little on cuts and it helps close them. You put the coagulant over it.. You have to be careful with it and not put in on regular areas of the skin in everyday fashion and leave it on too long.. It can make the skin red or peel it back on some people. Everybody’s skin is different for resistance to the stuff, so you have to go slow with it.

I’ve see trainers use it on their boxer’s face. They mistake it for regular Vaseline. If it gets pushed into their boxer’s eye it can sting. I tell them. “You’re using the wrong Vaseline on your boxer’s face, use regular Vaseline. It’s cheaper and won’t redden his skin.” They say “Yup” like they heard - and the next week you see them using the same Vaseline.

Willie Reddish would only use a touch of it and coagulant... It's more likely to get into your own boxer's eye.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 18:30 Nope... It wasn't that way with Alfredo Evangelista... That boy was ridiculed to death after he lost... Ali as well.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 18:36 Frazier too.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPk2zl5s6xM

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 18:22

You’re obfuscating the issue again, as always...

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 11:18

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 05:58

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 02:24

YES it DOES!!! .... ALI set the World Record for excessive clinching in a Heavyweight Championship Fight... Ali grabbed George Foreman 20 times in the 1st round of their fight... Doing such things as wrestling and shoving Foreman's head down... Again The referee Zach Clayton was in Ali's pocket and never even warned Ali for the excessive holding and wrestling... So excessive clinching such as Muhammad Ali engaged in bothers me a lot.

No effect on the fight???? NO other boxer in HISTORY as ever gotten away with repeatedly refusing to go to a neutral corner... Ali's DIFYANT REFUSAL to obey Walcott's orders to comply with the Neutral Corner Rule changed the outcome.. Liston was a smashing KO puncher and had a good chance to knock Ali out cold had the fight continued.

And you're oblivious to facts... You say Liston quit when the referee inappropriately stopped the fight... Makes no sense.

Liston got thrashed the first time. The second he didn't take a dive or get hurt bad. He got smacked with a punch he never saw, and stayed down. Getting up was useless, so he quit. Never brought up Ali just Wlad. Old Ali and prime Ali has been explained to you repeatedly. Liston quit and only bothered to get back up because Ali let him know everyone would think it was fixed. That's what got him reluctantly off the canvas. "Prime" Wlad spent an entire decade riding his opponents but it's ok. Ali stands over some fool he knows he embarrassed into quitting, and you're bothered.

You're living in Bizarro World where Ali never does anything wrong. Wladimir Klitschko has NOTHING to do with this topic. Your hatred for Klitschko drives you to trash him on this thread that he has nothing to do with.

Let me remind you… Ali went through his Title Reign fighting bums like Alfredo Evangelista and Jean Pierre Coopman – and doing far more holding than Wladimir – but Ali still got trashed, battered, hammered, and clobbered half to death. But Wladimir came out of his career fit as a fiddle, in full health, and in command of all his faculties. Cuz he was much better offensively and defensively. Watch the 1st round of Ali-Foreman and you’ll see Ali setting a World Record for clinching, holding, and wrestling for any round in a World Title Fight... APerno admits Ali got away with more fouling than any boxer in the last 50 years, or modern era.

Liston didn’t get trashed in the first Clay fight. The fight was DEAD EVEN after 6 rounds.... Liston was ring rusty as an old bucket of bolts... He was fighting injured throughout the fight. He came in with an injury and it got worse.

Liston didn’t quit in the Ali rematch and you KNOW IT!!! He got up in plenty of time in accordance with the neutral corner rule...and he resumed fighting... He was making an ass out of Ali, making him miss all his follow up punches. Ali should have been DISQUALIFIED for defying the referee... Go to 22:00 of this video and stop lying.

[quote=MrGuy post_id=4897221 time=15236 ... e=youtu.be

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 20:32 This just in:

Wilt Chamberlain could not play chess worth a damn.

Which would directly impact his ability to be a good fisherman.

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 20:30 Klitschko was brought up to question why his excessive infractions don't bother you, but Ali standing over a guy that was quitting does. I don't care about the bums he beat. When did Wlad beat a Frazier, Foreman, or a Lyle? Or even a Norton? Ali wasn't even in his prime for those guys. Liston was getting smacked around. He even resorted to rubbing linament in Ali's eyes. He just sat their quitting, until Ali embarrassed him into getting back up.

Kalan wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 20:50

MrGuy wrote: ↑13 Apr 2018, 20:30 Klitschko was brought up to question why his excessive infractions don't bother you, but Ali standing over a guy that was quitting does. I don't care about the bums he beat. When did Wlad beat a Frazier, Foreman, or a Lyle? Or even a Norton? Ali wasn't even in his prime for those guys. Liston was getting smacked around. He even resorted to rubbing linament in Ali's eyes. He just sat their quitting, until Ali embarrassed him into getting back up.

Anybody who holds it bothers me... I would like the rule against holding enforced... This is Queensberry Rules.

Ali held more than Wladimir... He holds the World Record... Liston didn't quit... Klitschko beat better fighters... The best boxer Ali fought was Holmes... Hittable Frazier and Norton and easily outboxed Foreman would be duck soup for Wladimir

Liston never rubbed any linament in Ali's eyes... The referee rubbed Liston's gloves on his eyes and felt nothing.

You come up with all these tales from Bizarro World... You're living in Zu Zu Land... NOBODY gets up and resumes a fight if they intend to quit...

Go to 23:00 of this video ..... The neutral corner rule was in full effect... Nobody suspended it for Ali-Liston 2