BoxRec

oogiebe wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 14:45

Tony1244 wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 14:28 I haven't watched Monzon in so long, I've hesitated to put my 2 cents in here.

But he did lose some decisions close to his prime, So my uninformed opinion here is Leonard decision.

He only lost two and they were early in his career. He won like the last 73 or so fights. Pick again! LoL!

Jane, you ignorant slut....

I watched some tape on Carlos and he was fantastic!

He had 9 draws! Don't think any of those fights made the tapes. Most, but not all the draws occurred when he was very young. Perhaps many, if not all those draws should have been scored for Monzon; that's another plausibility.

Anything could have happened in a Monzon-Leonard fight with a Leonard KO being the least likely. Carlos seemed to have great defense. But I'll stick with my Leonard close fight or perhaps a draw.

I think Carlos would punish Ray en route to an unanimous decision, like 11-4 to 12-2 in rounds.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑16 May 2018, 11:03 Jane, you ignorant slut....

I watched some tape on Carlos and he was fantastic!

He had 9 draws! Don't think any of those fights made the tapes. Most, but not all the draws occurred when he was very young. Perhaps many, if not all those draws should have been scored for Monzon; that's another plausibility.

Anything could have happened in a Monzon-Leonard fight with a Leonard KO being the least likely. Carlos seemed to have great defense. But I'll stick with my Leonard close fight or perhaps a draw.

Point/counterpoint!

Duran beat him once, Monzon would beat him once and for all.

Pound for pound, Leonard. At MW, it’s a close call. I say Leonard pts because of his speed.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑01 Jul 2019, 17:24 Duran beat him once, Monzon would beat him once and for all.

X2

If this is a 12 rounder I really like Leonard's chance. If Ray can outbox the World's number 1 pfp after a nearly 5 year layoff, he sure as heck can beat Monzon. Quicker hands, quicker feet, better head movement, good stamina and can take a helluva shot.

Not to mention that Monzon had all kinds of trouble with a past it Emile Griffith.

You folks need to go back and watch Monzon. I'd take him 7 of 10 times vs Ray.

Are you implying that Leonard didn't have quicker hands, quicker feet, better head movement, etc. If beating Marvin Hagler by a clear decision after a very long layoff, doesn't prove Ray would have a good chance of beating Monzon in a 12 rounder, then I'd need to hear a pretty good argument explaining why he wouldn't.

Seamus wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 11:29 Are you implying that Leonard didn't have quicker hands, quicker feet, better head movement, etc. If beating Marvin Hagler by a clear decision after a very long layoff, doesn't prove Ray would have a good chance of beating Monzon in a 12 rounder, then I'd need to hear a pretty good argument explaining why he wouldn't.

Monzon was a killer. Mean and nasty. With long arms and body length and more power than anyone Leonard ever faced. He could box and move or grind you down. He was also a tough inside fighter when he had to be. Monzon was a unique fighter who won his 73 or so fights. Ray was special, but Carlos was the best MW I've ever seen.

Hagler was a killer, mean and nasty and a better boxer than Monzon, and Sugar Ray beat him. Leonard faced Hearns at two weight divisions he's an alltime puncher. Monzon never faced anyone in his career with Leonard's handspeed and boxing skills. If I was a gambler and this was for real, I'd like Leonard's chances less in a 15 rounder, but over 12 I definitely think he could pull it off. When you're watching those Monzon fights keep a few other things in mind. benvenuti was damaged goods, Napoles was past his best and above weight, Griffith was old and still made it close, and both Valdes bouts were close.

Seamus wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 12:05 Hagler was a killer, mean and nasty and a better boxer than Monzon, and Sugar Ray beat him. Leonard faced Hearns at two weight divisions he's an alltime puncher. Monzon never faced anyone in his career with Leonard's handspeed and boxing skills. If I was a gambler and this was for real, I'd like Leonard's chances less in a 15 rounder, but over 12 I definitely think he could pull it off. When you're watching those Monzon fights keep a few other things in mind. benvenuti was damaged goods, Napoles was past his best and above weight, Griffith was old and still made it close, and both Valdes bouts were close.

Monzon on the end of his career when he faced Valdes, who was a terrific and tough fighter. Monzon never lost in his prime. Never.

And keep this in mind,
Leonard didn't beat Hagler. And sure as hell not clearly.
Monzon beats Leonard every day and twice on Sunday

Duran1970 wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 12:11 And keep this in mind,
Leonard didn't beat Hagler. And sure as hell not clearly.
Monzon beats Leonard every day and twice on Sunday

I agree, but you can't change history. THe record is what it is. Monzon was the best MW I ever saw and don't think Leonard would have beaten him.

I had Leonard beating Hagler by 3pts, the only people I knew who though Hagler won were Leonard haters.

Seamus wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 12:52 I had Leonard beating Hagler by 3pts, the only people I knew who though Hagler won were Leonard haters.

Well now you know someone who had Hagler winning who wasn't a Leonard hater. I've posted before that I felt that Leonard stole a lot of rounds by merely performing the last 30 seconds of most rounds. You can even hear Dundee scream out "30 seconds" from time to time.

oogiebe wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 11:38 Monzon was a killer. Mean and nasty. With long arms and body length and more power than anyone Leonard ever faced. He could box and move or grind you down. He was also a tough inside fighter when he had to be. Monzon was a unique fighter who won his 73 or so fights. Ray was special, but Carlos was the best MW I've ever seen.

Yes, this is the thing about Monzon. He had a certain aura about him as he came out of nowhere, showed no emotion, was surly with the media etc. Whereas Ray was the opposite - loads of exposure, good-looking, friendly.

They were both really mean in the ring though. I think there's a tendency to overplay the Monzon = terminator card. Ray knew how to play it rough as much as anyone else.

Another thing, I may be wrong here as I'm not an expert on Monzon. But which real elite guys did he actually beat? I mean bona fide, cream-of-the-crop middles? Valdes and Griffith, that was excellent. Otherwise, Benvenuti was coming to the end of his career and didn't really carry much of a dig at that level. Napoles was a quality operator, but again he was coming up from WW. You can't blame Monzon for that but what did he do that would make someone think he could take an ATG like Leonard.

He had size going for him, sure but apart from that I can't think of anything he brought that Leonard didn't deal with during his career. Sure, maybe he would have beaten Ray, we'll never know. But not to my mind, especially over 12 rounds.

Noxy wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 13:16 Yes, this is the thing about Monzon. He had a certain aura about him as he came out of nowhere, showed no emotion, was surly with the media etc. Whereas Ray was the opposite - loads of exposure, good-looking, friendly.

They were both really mean in the ring though. I think there's a tendency to overplay the Monzon = terminator card. Ray knew how to play it rough as much as anyone else.

Another thing, I may be wrong here as I'm not an expert on Monzon. But which real elite guys did he actually beat? I mean bona fide, cream-of-the-crop middles? Valdes and Griffith, that was excellent. Otherwise, Benvenuti was coming to the end of his career and didn't really carry much of a dig at that level. Napoles was a quality operator, but again he was coming up from WW. You can't blame Monzon for that but what did he do that would make someone think he could take an ATG like Leonard.

He had size going for him, sure but apart from that I can't think of anything he brought that Leonard didn't deal with during his career. Sure, maybe he would have beaten Ray, we'll never know. But not to my mind, especially over 12 rounds.

Some of us were thinking "what did Ray ever do to make someone think he take on an all time great like Monzon?
I don't think your recounting of Monzon's opposition is in context with the reality. A lot of those "opponents" were simply reduced to the status of "less than great" purely BECAUSE of Monzon. And seriously, what Duran managed to accomplish in his very best effort, Monzon manages on pretty much any given championship night of his career.

Granted some of this is due to the size difference. If we talk pound for pound, SRL has some credibility vs Monzon.

But Ray's days at MW were very calculated.....and Hager.? Well was that really the Hagler you'd want to call "Prime"? If so....then what you say possibly has legs. But not many of us were under the impression that the SRL fight version of Hagler was really the gold standard. But I also don't see the best Hagler beating the best Monzon.

I hear you there BoxBuzz. I'm sure what you say is spot on, to be fair Monzon was before my time. Although I've heard a lot about him, I don't actually remember him terrorising the MWs. Again, excuse my ignorance, but who were these guys? As I said, I'm only aware of Valdes and Griffith as, to me at least, really elite MWs who came up short against him.

Sugar Ray had the good fortune to be around when there was a wealth of talent and he rose to the top of that talent pool. Fair point about Marvin as well, but then again Ray had had one fight in five years and had gone up in weight ... So, swings and roundabouts, as they say.

Let's just say he only fought bums.......I'm not sure it matters.

Many people (me included) who saw Monzon were vastly impressed with his calculated speed, ice cold demeanor, surgical pinpoint precision, and his ability to typically get better with each and every round as he figured out his opponent. He was a bit of a "boxing savant". IMHO.

He's such a bad person, I don't like to sing his praises too often, but I do believe he was the best in his weight class, of all time. His ring IQ sets him apart. And his ability to recover from huge punches is in the same league as Ali. How do you compete with that? He was like fighting the Borg.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑03 Jul 2019, 19:30 Let's just say he only fought bums.......I'm not sure it matters.

Many people (me included) who saw Monzon were vastly impressed with his calculated speed, ice cold demeanor, surgical pinpoint precision, and his ability to typically get better with each and every round as he figured out his opponent. He was a bit of a "boxing savant". IMHO.

He's such a bad person, I don't like to sing his praises too often, but I do believe he was the best in his weight class, of all time. His ring IQ sets him apart. And his ability to recover from huge punches is in the same league as Ali. How do you compete with that? He was like fighting the Borg.

oogiebe wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019, 11:22 You folks need to go back and watch Monzon. I'd take him 7 of 10 times vs Ray.

Carlos Monzon was out of this world. Like, Sugar Ray, he was a thinking man's fighter. That's comes to show that boxing is also mental as is physical.

He was the opposite of flashy in the ring. Monzon never wasted a calorie. Everything he did was about being efficient and effective. He was as close to a robot in the ring as you will ever see. He was so fast mentally, that he didn't need to be faster than you to beat you to the punch. He threw punches that upon being triggered appeared they were going nowhere, only to find the target when his opponent ended up moving in the precise way he seemed to "intuit" his opponent would move.

Watching his fights in slow motion, is like watching an episode of the twilight zone. He's like Nostradamus in the "nanosecond" world. Predicting where a chin will be before the chin arrives.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 20:25 He was the opposite of flashy in the ring. Monzon never wasted a calorie. Everything he did was about being efficient and effective. He was as close to a robot in the ring as you will ever see. He was so fast mentally, that he didn't need to be faster than you to beat you to the punch. He threw punches that upon being triggered appeared they were going nowhere, only to find the target when his opponent ended up moving in the precise way he seemed to "intuit" his opponent would move.

Watching his fights in slow motion, is like watching an episode of the twilight zone. He's like Nostradamus in the "nanosecond" world. Predicting where a chin will be before the chin arrives.

He was special alright.