BoxRec

oogiebe wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 16:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 14:12

oogiebe wrote: ↑28 Dec 2018, 17:08

I just never liked him. Haven't you ever just not liked someone?

Not if they didn't do or say something I didn't like. Nobody can ever come up with any real reasons why they didn't like Leonard. Which leads me to believe they don't like him for superficial reasons. And many people tend to vastly underrate fighters they don't like.

It was his arrogance really. KD a guy and immediately raise his hands; showboating; sounded contrived during interviews. That sort of stuff. not sure why you really GAF...

No $hit!
He'll there are some posters on here that I don't care for but I couldn't tell you why.
It's just the way it is.
When it comes to Leonard I loved his skill but I hated his persona. I felt the same way with Oscar DeLaHoya and now with Joshua.
They all seemed fake to me.
It doesn't matter why we don't like certain people it just happens

tiny_acres wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 17:15

oogiebe wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 16:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 14:12

Not if they didn't do or say something I didn't like. Nobody can ever come up with any real reasons why they didn't like Leonard. Which leads me to believe they don't like him for superficial reasons. And many people tend to vastly underrate fighters they don't like.

It was his arrogance really. KD a guy and immediately raise his hands; showboating; sounded contrived during interviews. That sort of stuff. not sure why you really GAF...

No $hit!
He'll there are some posters on here that I don't care for but I couldn't tell you why.
It's just the way it is.
When it comes to Leonard I loved his skill but I hated his persona. I felt the same way with Oscar DeLaHoya and now with Joshua.
They all seemed fake to me.
It doesn't matter why we don't like certain people it just happens

Best fighter I’ve ever seen, don’t care about the other stuff, take the scum out of boxing and there’d be no boxing !

littlepug wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 17:23 Best fighter I’ve ever seen, don’t care about the other stuff, take the scum out of boxing and there’d be no boxing !

I watched his career unfold from the 1976 Olympics forward. Tremendous fighter. One of the best I've ever seen. Exciting as anyone. He had to dig deep against Hearns in their first fight. I remember the body shot in one of the mid rounds that really turned that fight around. Tommy became the stalked and Leanard the stalker. Just don't like him personally. Probably watched every fight that was telecast.

littlepug wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 17:23 Best fighter I’ve ever seen, don’t care about the other stuff, take the scum out of boxing and there’d be no boxing !

can't argue with this statement

Best fighter you guys have ever seen? Wow, maybe some people really do realize how great he was. I have saying for years that he is a a one of the top 10 fighters of all time, and that it should be a no-brainer. Not sure if I have seen anyone have him in their top 10.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 19:30 Best fighter you guys have ever seen? Wow, maybe some people really do realize how great he was. I have saying for years that he is a a one of the top 10 fighters of all time, and that it should be a no-brainer. Not sure if I have seen anyone have him in their top 10.

Would you rate Ray above Michael Spinks, or Julio Caesar Chavez?

Without question. He had wins over four different guys in the Top 50 All time. Spinks and Chavez didn't come close to that. How many other guys have done that? Less than 10.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Dec 2018, 11:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 19:30 Best fighter you guys have ever seen? Wow, maybe some people really do realize how great he was. I have saying for years that he is a a one of the top 10 fighters of all time, and that it should be a no-brainer. Not sure if I have seen anyone have him in their top 10.

Would you rate Ray above Michael Spinks, or Julio Caesar Chavez?

Hearns should be rated over both of them

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 19:30 Best fighter you guys have ever seen? Wow, maybe some people really do realize how great he was. I have saying for years that he is a a one of the top 10 fighters of all time, and that it should be a no-brainer. Not sure if I have seen anyone have him in their top 10.

Top ten all time? No, no, no!

I think Leonard beating 4 guys in the top 50 is not necessarily supported by evidence. I don't see much case for Benitez being top 50 given all the talented fighters there have been over the years.

You could make a strong case that he lost to Hagler and Hearns also....

Duran1970 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 13:55 You could make a strong case that he lost to Hagler and Hearns also....

Agreed 100%.

I have SRL in my top 10. He’s near the top end aswell.
Not my favourite fighter. Rooted for Duran and Hearns.
But it’s impossible not to rate his greatness.
Maybe he had weaknesses outside the ring but he had ZERO in it.

PredatorHayds wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 16:25 I have SRL in my top 10. He’s near the top end aswell.
Not my favourite fighter. Rooted for Duran and Hearns.
But it’s impossible not to rate his greatness.
Maybe he had weaknesses outside the ring but he had ZERO in it.

Hated the guy, but perhaps the most complete fighter I've ever seen. An ATG for sure.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:26

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Dec 2018, 11:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 Dec 2018, 19:30 Best fighter you guys have ever seen? Wow, maybe some people really do realize how great he was. I have saying for years that he is a a one of the top 10 fighters of all time, and that it should be a no-brainer. Not sure if I have seen anyone have him in their top 10.

Would you rate Ray above Michael Spinks, or Julio Caesar Chavez?

Hearns should be rated over both of them

You could make a case for him, arguably.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:26

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Dec 2018, 11:10

Would you rate Ray above Michael Spinks, or Julio Caesar Chavez?

Hearns should be rated over both of them

You could make a case for him, arguably.

M. Spinks; Hearns, are far below SRL. JCC is better all time IMHO. His accomplishments aren't appreciated enough IMHO.

oogiebe wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:48

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:26 Hearns should be rated over both of them

You could make a case for him, arguably.

M. Spinks; Hearns, are far below SRL. JCC is better all time IMHO. His accomplishments aren't appreciated enough IMHO.

If M. Spinks had won some more fights, I might rate him above Ray. Hearns I personally can't. I agree about JCC, but some overrate him.

Leonard beat Hearns, Duran, Hagler, and Benitez. Each one of those wins is better than anything Spinks or Chavez has.
Think about that. Leonard's 4th best win was better than Chavez's or Spinks best win.

Don't mean to be ripping Spinks and Chavez here. They obviously were great fighters, and each has several very good wins. However, they clearly are on on Leonard's level.

Who was better between Hearns, Spinks, and Chavez is a much more debatable.
One thing I would say about Spinks is that his number of wins should be be a factor.
Had beat 30 other fighters who he couldn't possibly lose to and finished 61-1, it wouldn't he was a better fighter.

PredatorHayds wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 16:25 I have SRL in my top 10. He’s near the top end aswell.
Not my favourite fighter. Rooted for Duran and Hearns.
But it’s impossible not to rate his greatness.
Maybe he had weaknesses outside the ring but he had ZERO in it.

The maximum I can give Sugar Ray is position #15. The minimum would be #25. So, if you rate him between those spots is reasonable. I got him ranked at #18. Why? Lack of fights. He only had 40 fights. That's not enough fights to qualify you a top 10. Plus, the retirement and unretirement throughout his career gotta hurt. Plus, THE STIPULATIONS in dictating his fights: make the ring larger for Duran fight #2, 12 rounds and thumbless gloves for the Marvelous Marvin fight, not giving immediate rematches and manipulation of the game kept him out of the top 10.

Consistency is a significant factor in ranking fighters . There are numerous cases of guys losing to opponents that shouldn't have been able to beat them. Showing consistency against a large number of elite opponents is impressive even if they are not legends.

Hearns didn't seem to have any business losing to someone like Barkley but he did twice anyway even though the results seem to defy all logic.

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:26

Nile4000 wrote: ↑31 Dec 2018, 11:10

Would you rate Ray above Michael Spinks, or Julio Caesar Chavez?

Hearns should be rated over both of them

You could make a case for him, arguably.

Don't see the argument.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 01:20 Consistency is a significant factor in ranking fighters . There are numerous cases of guys losing to opponents that shouldn't have been able to beat them. Showing consistency against a large number of elite opponents is impressive even if they are not legends.

Hearns didn't seem to have any business losing to someone like Barkley but he did twice anyway even though the results seem to defy all logic.

My point is that you can't just go by numbers. You can always find opponents that you can't lose to; opponents far worse than Iran Barkley.

When rating fighters, you should give a lot of weight to beating a great fighter. Some credit for beating a good fighter, but not as much. For great fighters, you shouldn't give them any credit for beating tomato cans.
The worse an opponent is that a fighter lost to, the more he should get penalized.

Barkley is no different than Randall. Tommys top wins are better thN Chavez and he doesn't have bullshit like Whitaker and Taylor on his record. His loss to Leonard is as good as any Chavez win.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019, 09:13

Nile4000 wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 17:37

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 02:26

Hearns should be rated over both of them

You could make a case for him, arguably.

Don't see the argument.

He destroyed Cuevas and Duran, and up to around 30, 31, only had lost his two biggest fights. There is some case there, if not minor.