Quantrax wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:30
16 pro fights blud.
16 pro fights fam.
not sure that itself is a big issue for his cw rating, holy for example (imo defo the best) had about the same in the division, the divisions relative lack of historical depth means usykcould retire today and still be in the discussion already for the very best guys ever at cw
when guys get real standout wins at cw they often go to heavy without having loads of cruiser fights
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 12 Nov 2018, 14:50
by punchoutsb
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:37
I do to the extent of qawis cruiser rating, but that doesn't detract from the monster that holy field faced. It's the best win either has.
Again, Qawi has the benefit of a completed career.
6 of the last 7 opponents Usyk faced have been at the very top echelon of CW, two of them hold wins over former HW champions, 4 were undefeated and he’s unified the division in 16 fights after winning a title by his 10th. That’s a better resume at CW then Holy.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:19
I don't see how that's the case. They both cleaned out their division. I wouldn't pick any of the guys he beat over qawi.
During Holyfield rule the division was new and shallow.
Usyks wins have the opportunity to get better with time. Boxing is shallow in general now.
Usyk never faced and will probably never face a bigger heart than Holyfield, Real Deal was special.
Usyk never faced and will probably never face a bigger heart than Holyfield, Real Deal was special.
He was also on special supplements.
Never proven, but I do believe as a HW he was dependent on PED's to get to and sustain his HW size.
Great point. There is NO way Holyfield was using PEDs as a Cruiserweight (only 190 pounds back then). He fought at 178 in the 1984 Olympics and took the CW world title as a pro from future Hall-of-Famer Qawi less than 2 years later, weighing in at a mere 186 pounds.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:37
I do to the extent of qawis cruiser rating, but that doesn't detract from the monster that holy field faced. It's the best win either has.
Again, Qawi has the benefit of a completed career.
6 of the last 7 opponents Usyk faced have been at the very top echelon of CW, two of them hold wins over former HW champions, 4 were undefeated and he’s unified the division in 16 fights after winning a title by his 10th. That’s a better resume at CW then Holy.
Again? I'm pretty sure I made the point originally. Holy field faced all the top guys too. I disagree it's better now. It could end up being. Breidis has looked like dogshit.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:37
I do to the extent of qawis cruiser rating, but that doesn't detract from the monster that holy field faced. It's the best win either has.
Again, Qawi has the benefit of a completed career.
6 of the last 7 opponents Usyk faced have been at the very top echelon of CW, two of them hold wins over former HW champions, 4 were undefeated and he’s unified the division in 16 fights after winning a title by his 10th. That’s a better resume at CW then Holy.
Again? I'm pretty sure I made the point originally. Holy field faced all the top guys too. I disagree it's better now. It could end up being. Breidis has looked like dogshit.
Exactly!! All these Usyk-is-the-greatest boosters totally lack historical perspective. They act like Usyk victims such as Briedis and Gassiev are shoe-ins for the HOF. There's a very good chance that one or both could be flash-in-the-pan one-hit wonders who are not even ranked 2-3 years from now.
Their shallow argument that Usyk is GOAT cruiser is based on making his victims into something special and that has yet to be seen.
That's why they dont even induct fighters into the HOF for FIVE YEARS after they retire!!
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑12 Nov 2018, 14:37
I do to the extent of qawis cruiser rating, but that doesn't detract from the monster that holy field faced. It's the best win either has.
Again, Qawi has the benefit of a completed career.
6 of the last 7 opponents Usyk faced have been at the very top echelon of CW, two of them hold wins over former HW champions, 4 were undefeated and he’s unified the division in 16 fights after winning a title by his 10th. That’s a better resume at CW then Holy.
Again? I'm pretty sure I made the point originally. Holy field faced all the top guys too. I disagree it's better now. It could end up being. Breidis has looked like dogshit.
And everyone knows one or two fights looking poorly is definitely indicative of a career.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 09:51
by Onetimeonly
Lol, losing closer than expected to usyk and stopping Charr isn't exactly the 2 fights to generate an atg.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 14:26
by punchoutsb
Did someone call him an atg?
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 14:36
by Onetimeonly
You implied that a couple poor performances don't define him, my retort is neither do a couple good ones. He's still a question mark for exactly how good he is.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 14:46
by punchoutsb
He is/was a top CW when Usyk beat him, which is relevant when considering this question.
We disagree and thats just fine. I don’t think either of us will be changing the others minds. In time the answer will become more clear either way.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 14 Nov 2018, 22:23
by jamamb
usyks 2, holys 1
even aside from cw resumes, and holy still had a standout one beating qawi, de leon, and others, just watch that beast in action at cruiser
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 04:14
by Enlightened-One
ValMar wrote: ↑09 Nov 2018, 14:44Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
This is yet another typical example of the inevitable “pendulum swinging” effect found in most fight fans and the media where they go from one vine (fighter) to the next based on the sport’s most recent noteworthy performance.
Basically, a lot of people quickly fall victim to a typical “pendulum shift” as soon as someone in the sport does something big, where the momentum seems to bury the reality.
Basically, too many fans and members of the media go overboard with accolades whenever one of the sports' biggest stars compete.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 04:20
by jamamb
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 04:49
by candyslim
Agreed.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 04:59
by Enlightened-One
jamamb wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:20
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
You’re probably right, but some members of the forum are going overboard by suggesting that the Ukraine would even dominate AJ despite Usyk having never competed as a heavyweight. It just feels like too much praise is being lavished for me.
The point I made is still valid though because every time Golovkin, Lomachenko or other big-name stars compete, we keep seeing the same sort of “all-time-great”, “Hall-of-Fame”, “Top-ten pound-for-pounder” type threads in this forum.
And people get hideously outraged if you don’t 100% adhere to the hysteria of the Lemming-like masses.
I’m not really criticising these people though, because I usually support positivity, it’s just that I feel that so many of these individuals go overboard with their accolades.
This isn't a dig at you or anything you've written, as I'm simply expressing my sentiments about all the comments in general...
Oleksandr Usyk is a deeply impressive fighter, so let's just leave it at that for the time being and then we can evaluate his perceived "greatness" five years or so after he eventually hangs up his gloves, because perceptions can change over time.
jamamb wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:20
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
You’re probably right, but some members of the forum are going overboard by suggesting that the Ukraine would even dominate AJ despite Usyk having never competed as a heavyweight. It just feels like too much praise is being lavished for me.
The point I made is still valid though because every time Golovkin, Lomachenko or other big-name stars compete, we keep seeing the same sort of “all-time-great”, “Hall-of-Fame”, “Top-ten pound-for-pounder” type threads in this forum.
And people get hideously outraged if you don’t 100% adhere to the hysteria of the Lemming-like masses.
I’m not really criticising these people though, because I usually support positivity, it’s just that I feel that so many of these individuals go overboard with their accolades.
This isn't a dig at you or anything you've written, as I'm simply expressing my sentiments about all the comments in general...
Oleksandr Usyk is a deeply impressive fighter, so let's just leave it at that for the time being and then we can evaluate his perceived "greatness" five years or so after he eventually hangs up his gloves, because perceptions can change over time.
jamamb wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:20
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
You’re probably right, but some members of the forum are going overboard by suggesting that the Ukraine would even dominate AJ despite Usyk having never competed as a heavyweight. It just feels like too much praise is being lavished for me.
The point I made is still valid though because every time Golovkin, Lomachenko or other big-name stars compete, we keep seeing the same sort of “all-time-great”, “Hall-of-Fame”, “Top-ten pound-for-pounder” type threads in this forum.
And people get hideously outraged if you don’t 100% adhere to the hysteria of the Lemming-like masses.
I’m not really criticising these people though, because I usually support positivity, it’s just that I feel that so many of these individuals go overboard with their accolades.
This isn't a dig at you or anything you've written, as I'm simply expressing my sentiments about all the comments in general...
Oleksandr Usyk is a deeply impressive fighter, so let's just leave it at that for the time being and then we can evaluate his perceived "greatness" five years or so after he eventually hangs up his gloves, because perceptions can change over time.
ya i agree, jesus it was especially bad with ggg
The ridiculous praise being bestowed on GGG was tame in comparison to the frenzied hysteria we experienced on this forum when many people started making bold proclamations about Vasyl Lomachenko being undoubtedly the “Greatest of All Time” by the proverbial country mile!
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 10:24
by Mexi-Box
jamamb wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:20
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
What!? The CW division is one of the best in boxing currently.
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:59
You’re probably right, but some members of the forum are going overboard by suggesting that the Ukraine would even dominate AJ despite Usyk having never competed as a heavyweight. It just feels like too much praise is being lavished for me.
The point I made is still valid though because every time Golovkin, Lomachenko or other big-name stars compete, we keep seeing the same sort of “all-time-great”, “Hall-of-Fame”, “Top-ten pound-for-pounder” type threads in this forum.
And people get hideously outraged if you don’t 100% adhere to the hysteria of the Lemming-like masses.
I’m not really criticising these people though, because I usually support positivity, it’s just that I feel that so many of these individuals go overboard with their accolades.
This isn't a dig at you or anything you've written, as I'm simply expressing my sentiments about all the comments in general...
Oleksandr Usyk is a deeply impressive fighter, so let's just leave it at that for the time being and then we can evaluate his perceived "greatness" five years or so after he eventually hangs up his gloves, because perceptions can change over time.
ya i agree, jesus it was especially bad with ggg
The ridiculous praise being bestowed on GGG was tame in comparison to the frenzied hysteria we experienced on this forum when many people started making bold proclamations about Vasyl Lomachenko being undoubtedly the “Greatest of All Time” by the proverbial country mile!
Lomachenko is among the top 20 p4p boxers since 2000. I have no dilemma about that. "The greatest of all time" ? Not definitely.
jamamb wrote: ↑15 Nov 2018, 04:20
he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise
What!? The CW division is one of the best in boxing currently.
Historically, I believe he meant.
Re: Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?
Posted: 15 Nov 2018, 17:51
by squiggy
gregregegg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2018, 05:17
Id say that at cruiser-weight there resumes will be pretty simular (assuming usyk wins tomorrow). i also believe usyk will have heavyweight sucses, but im not confident he will find enough fights there to pass holyfield. (note, moving up weight is easier if your on some lovely pharmaceuticals, i believe holyfield was, id like to believe usyk isn't but who knows.) but yea cruiser to cruiser id say usyk and holyfield are very close (differnt cruiser limit though...)
Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.
gregregegg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2018, 05:17
Id say that at cruiser-weight there resumes will be pretty simular (assuming usyk wins tomorrow). i also believe usyk will have heavyweight sucses, but im not confident he will find enough fights there to pass holyfield. (note, moving up weight is easier if your on some lovely pharmaceuticals, i believe holyfield was, id like to believe usyk isn't but who knows.) but yea cruiser to cruiser id say usyk and holyfield are very close (differnt cruiser limit though...)
Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.
Usyk shouldn't mess around - he would beat the brakes off Joshua if it was his next fight.
As for the OP, the CW GOAT is only a 3 horse race anyway between Holyfield, Haye & Usyk. Usyk has probably achieved more in the division then the other 2 by going to Russia and beating Gassiev for all 4 belts + the Ali trophy. I'll take Usyk as the CW GOAT, edging over Holyfield & Hate a distant 3rd.
