BoxRec

I would've liked the referee to give a warning to Young for slipping between the ropes to avoid punches and cause breaks. That always pissed me off.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:44 I would've liked the referee to give a warning to Young for slipping between the ropes to avoid punches and cause breaks. That always pissed me off.

He did that against Ali and Lyle. Did he do it against Foreman too?

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:44 I would've liked the referee to give a warning to Young for slipping between the ropes to avoid punches and cause breaks. That always pissed me off.

He did that against Ali and Lyle. Did he do it against Foreman too?

Yes he did. I believe he should not have been allowed to do so. Funny, I never saw Young/Lyle. A draw?

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:52

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:44 I would've liked the referee to give a warning to Young for slipping between the ropes to avoid punches and cause breaks. That always pissed me off.

He did that against Ali and Lyle. Did he do it against Foreman too?

Yes he did. I believe he should not have been allowed to do so. Funny, I never saw Young/Lyle. A draw?

Young-Lyle 2 I believe is on youtube. I've never seen Young-Lyle one, but both fights Young won by unanimous decision. Both close to shutouts I believe. I don't remember Young slipping thru the ropes against Foreman, but I'll take your word for it.

Foreman haters always complained how he pushed before he hit. But Ali, who I also respect immensely held Foreman, Frazier and others behind the head like he was ballroom dancing.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:15 Foreman haters always complained how he pushed before he hit. But Ali, who I also respect immensely held Foreman, Frazier and others behind the head like he was ballroom dancing.

Foreman employed that to create space; measure distance; thwart his opponents attack and throw them off balance. Ali's holding behind the head was ridiculous. He employed that from the time he came back from being banished. Not sure how Ali got away with that other than he intimidated the refs. LOL! I had forgotten about that! Ali seemed to develop that against Frazier's unyielding offensives. Then as you say, on Foreman and other opponents.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:21

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:15 Foreman haters always complained how he pushed before he hit. But Ali, who I also respect immensely held Foreman, Frazier and others behind the head like he was ballroom dancing.

Foreman employed that to create space; measure distance; thwart his opponents attack and throw them off balance. Ali's holding behind the head was ridiculous. He employed that from the time he came back from being banished. Not sure how Ali got away with that other than he intimidated the refs. LOL! I had forgotten about that! Ali seemed to develop that against Frazier's unyielding offensives. Then as you say, on Foreman and other opponents.

The attitude on Ali went from banishment in the 60s to indubitable worship in the 70s. That train did not stop in-between.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:17

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:03

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 11:16

Was it 90 degrees? I think where you are from is a factor in how you deal with extreme temperatures. His style then where he wasn't relaxed in the ring is a much bigger factor. There is no reason to believe GF could have beaten Young, Ali, or Holmes back then in any temperature. Styles make fights.

There's no reason to believe he could beat Young because he lost a razor thin decision to him one time in tropical heat? Do you actually think before you write?

And why is Holmes a lock to beat him? Because he beat Muhammad Ali's corpse? Went life & death with an old Norton, who at his peak was vanquished in two by Foreman? Controlling Earnie Shavers and George Foreman are two very different things.

If Foreman and Young hadn't fought, you'd be calling everyone an idiot for saying Young could have beaten Foreman.

Puerto Rico, especially in March, is not tropical. It's subtropical. Learn up.

"Razor thin decision." LOL. He got his ass handed to him.

Holmes is one of the greatest fighters of all time and that obviously has nothing to do with his 1980 fight with Ali. Maybe you think GF could have beaten Holmes , but Foreman didn't believe he could beat Holmes or he wouldn't have retired. If you know anything about boxing from that era, GF wanted to fight again after Leon beat Ali because he knew Leon was tailor made for him. When Ali beat Leon in the rematch, God changed his mind again.

Go easy on the "do you think before you write?" I've read melatonin works wonders for PMS.

Quibbling tropical and subtropical is a level of pedantry too silly to entertain. It's not something somebody with a sound argument needs to argue. Have you heard Cossell talking about the heat in the arena that night? Also, I don't know whether you know this, but TV spotlights are hellish hot. Perhaps the lighting and the lack of air conditioning could lift a sub-tropical Puerto Rican heat to a tropical Puerto Rican heat? To be honest I can't believe I had to write any of that out. You really have no argument if you are trying to downplay the heat in Foreman/Young. No one else ever has done.

Foreman retired in March 1977--you think he did so because he didn't want to fight Larry Holmes? Who was larry Holmes in March 1977? Holmes wasn't even in the picture. Holmes in 77 was the guy who twice turned down King's offers to fight Foreman.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:00

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:17

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:03

There's no reason to believe he could beat Young because he lost a razor thin decision to him one time in tropical heat? Do you actually think before you write?

And why is Holmes a lock to beat him? Because he beat Muhammad Ali's corpse? Went life & death with an old Norton, who at his peak was vanquished in two by Foreman? Controlling Earnie Shavers and George Foreman are two very different things.

If Foreman and Young hadn't fought, you'd be calling everyone an idiot for saying Young could have beaten Foreman.

Puerto Rico, especially in March, is not tropical. It's subtropical. Learn up.

"Razor thin decision." LOL. He got his ass handed to him.

Holmes is one of the greatest fighters of all time and that obviously has nothing to do with his 1980 fight with Ali. Maybe you think GF could have beaten Holmes , but Foreman didn't believe he could beat Holmes or he wouldn't have retired. If you know anything about boxing from that era, GF wanted to fight again after Leon beat Ali because he knew Leon was tailor made for him. When Ali beat Leon in the rematch, God changed his mind again.

Go easy on the "do you think before you write?" I've read melatonin works wonders for PMS.

Quibbling tropical and subtropical is a level of pedantry too silly to entertain. It's not something somebody with a sound argument needs to argue. Have you heard Cossell talking about the heat in the arena that night? Also, I don't know whether you know this, but TV spotlights are hellish hot. Perhaps the lighting and the lack of air conditioning could lift a sub-tropical Puerto Rican heat to a tropical Puerto Rican heat? To be honest I can't believe I had to write any of that out. You really have no argument if you are trying to downplay the heat in Foreman/Young. No one else ever has done.

Foreman retired in March 1977--you think he did so because he didn't want to fight Larry Holmes? Who was larry Holmes in March 1977? Holmes wasn't even in the picture. Holmes in 77 was the guy who twice turned down King's offers to fight Foreman.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:06

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:00

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 12:17

If Foreman and Young hadn't fought, you'd be calling everyone an idiot for saying Young could have beaten Foreman.

Puerto Rico, especially in March, is not tropical. It's subtropical. Learn up.

"Razor thin decision." LOL. He got his ass handed to him.

Holmes is one of the greatest fighters of all time and that obviously has nothing to do with his 1980 fight with Ali. Maybe you think GF could have beaten Holmes , but Foreman didn't believe he could beat Holmes or he wouldn't have retired. If you know anything about boxing from that era, GF wanted to fight again after Leon beat Ali because he knew Leon was tailor made for him. When Ali beat Leon in the rematch, God changed his mind again.

Go easy on the "do you think before you write?" I've read melatonin works wonders for PMS.

Quibbling tropical and subtropical is a level of pedantry too silly to entertain. It's not something somebody with a sound argument needs to argue. Have you heard Cossell talking about the heat in the arena that night? Also, I don't know whether you know this, but TV spotlights are hellish hot. Perhaps the lighting and the lack of air conditioning could lift a sub-tropical Puerto Rican heat to a tropical Puerto Rican heat? To be honest I can't believe I had to write any of that out. You really have no argument if you are trying to downplay the heat in Foreman/Young. No one else ever has done.

Foreman retired in March 1977--you think he did so because he didn't want to fight Larry Holmes? Who was larry Holmes in March 1977? Holmes wasn't even in the picture. Holmes in 77 was the guy who twice turned down King's offers to fight Foreman.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

A 70 year old Jewish guy in a tux complaining about the heat. Maybe you an Howard should get an air conditioned condo together in Miami.

If you thought Young-Foreman was close, you are too ignorant on the matter to debate with. I was rooting for Foreman at the time, big time. But I saw GF got his ass kicked.

Foreman was still in a psychological frenzy regarding Ali in 1977. He wanted nothing to do with boxers like Ali, Young, and eventually Holmes after he got his ass kicked by Young. If Mike Weaver had beaten Holmes, God would have told Foreman to come back much earlier than he did. You don't know this, as you seem not to know too much: but Foreman announced his return to the ring after Leon had beaten Ali and then duly retired again. .

Even Foreman never used the heat as an excuse against Young and GF was pretty good at coming up with excuses.

I know so much more than you do about 70s HW boxing that they'd stop the fight very ear;ly.

It wasn't the heat. He just fought poorly; he was off of his game. However, say he got his a$$ kicked is a an exaggeration. He lost. It was not a particularly close fight, but it was not domination either.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:58

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:21

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 13:15 Foreman haters always complained how he pushed before he hit. But Ali, who I also respect immensely held Foreman, Frazier and others behind the head like he was ballroom dancing.

Foreman employed that to create space; measure distance; thwart his opponents attack and throw them off balance. Ali's holding behind the head was ridiculous. He employed that from the time he came back from being banished. Not sure how Ali got away with that other than he intimidated the refs. LOL! I had forgotten about that! Ali seemed to develop that against Frazier's unyielding offensives. Then as you say, on Foreman and other opponents.

The attitude on Ali went from banishment in the 60s to indubitable worship in the 70s. That train did not stop in-between.

Ali intimidated the refs?
In the second Quarry fight, Quarry literally picked him up off his feet and didn't even get a warning.
The referee heard an imaginary bell in the 2nd Frazier fight when Frazier was hurt.
Both these fights were in the 1970s.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:22 It wasn't the heat. He just fought poorly; he was off of his game. However, say he got his a$$ kicked is a an exaggeration. He lost. It was a particularly close fight, but it was not domination either.

I agree with about 70% of this. GF had about 11 excuses in Zaire but a tough guy from Houston wouldn't have used the heat as an excuse for a March evening.

Foreman could never have beaten a prime, Ali, Holmes or Young. I still rate him in my top 10 for all time HWs though.

He clearly lost a decision. Ass kicking may be a very slight exaggeration. GF did use not drinking enough water as an excuse. What would have happened if they fought that night in 72 degree air conditioning? Who knows? We do know GF had a lot of trouble with great boxers.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:28

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:22 It wasn't the heat. He just fought poorly; he was off of his game. However, say he got his a$$ kicked is a an exaggeration. He lost. It was a particularly close fight, but it was not domination either.

I agree with about 70% of this. GF had about 11 excuses in Zaire but a tough guy from Houston wouldn't have used the heat as an excuse for a March evening.

Foreman could never have beaten a prime, Ali, Holmes or Young. I still rate him in my top 10 for all time HWs though.

He clearly lost a decision. Ass kicking may be a very slight exaggeration. GF did use not drinking enough water as an excuse. What would have happened if they fought that night in 72 degree air conditioning? Who knows? We do know GF had a lot of trouble with great boxers.

I agree on Ali or Holmes. Don't agree on Young.

Pretty much agree with this.

He isn't going to beat Ali (outside of some freak accident like a ridiculous stoppage or bad decision or something like that.) He can't knock him out and he can't win a decision.
He would have a serious punchers chance against Holmes, but would lose more often than not.

Young is a different story. He wins this more often than not.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:33 Pretty much agree with this.

He isn't going to beat Ali (outside of some freak accident like a ridiculous stoppage or bad decision or something like that.) He can't knock him out and he can't win a decision.
He would have a serious punchers chance against Holmes, but would lose more often than not.

Young is a different story. He wins this more often than not.

Yeah, George was all screwed up mechanically and mentally when he fought Young. He beats Jimmy 9 of 10 times. He looked all wrong that fight. Bouncing around; little punching; very little jabbing; it was strange.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:35

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:33 Pretty much agree with this.

He isn't going to beat Ali (outside of some freak accident like a ridiculous stoppage or bad decision or something like that.) He can't knock him out and he can't win a decision.
He would have a serious punchers chance against Holmes, but would lose more often than not.

Young is a different story. He wins this more often than not.

Yeah, George was all screwed up mechanically and mentally when he fought Young. He beats Jimmy 9 of 10 times. He looked all wrong that fight. Bouncing around; little punching; very little jabbing; it was strange.

He was basically mentally shot to pieces at that time, and basically needed the lengthy layoff to pull himself back together. By the time he came back in the late 80's he'd had a lot of time to reflect, and put the Ali loss behind him. During this time the loss was still very fresh on his mind, and still leaving him more than a little frazzled, and not himself.

I don't think he would've struggled as badly as he did against Ron Lyle if not for the Ali defeat either.

It also shows something was amiss, that a significantly lesser version of Joe Frazier was able to last more rounds with GF than the prime Frazier he'd fought in Kingston could.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:35

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:33 Pretty much agree with this.

He isn't going to beat Ali (outside of some freak accident like a ridiculous stoppage or bad decision or something like that.) He can't knock him out and he can't win a decision.
He would have a serious punchers chance against Holmes, but would lose more often than not.

Young is a different story. He wins this more often than not.

Yeah, George was all screwed up mechanically and mentally when he fought Young. He beats Jimmy 9 of 10 times. He looked all wrong that fight. Bouncing around; little punching; very little jabbing; it was strange.

He was basically mentally shot to pieces at that time, and basically needed the lengthy layoff to pull himself back together. By the time he came back in the late 80's he'd had a lot of time to reflect, and put the Ali loss behind him. During this time the loss was still very fresh on his mind, and still leaving him more than a little frazzled, and not himself.

I don't think he would've struggled as badly as he did against Ron Lyle if not for the Ali defeat either.

It also shows something was amiss, that a significantly lesser version of Joe Frazier was able to last more rounds with GF than the prime Frazier he'd fought in Kingston could.

Yeah, five rounds with a shaved headed and soft plump Frazier. After Ali, it was obvious that Foreman was in emotional pain beginning with his debacle in Toronto. I remember he was always trying to prove he had stamina rather than use what nature gave him. He was so very messed up. I'm not sure I can think of a fighter who reacted to a loss like that. It wasn't a tomato can he lost to, it was Ali, the greatest. Mindboggling.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:42

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:37

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:35

Yeah, George was all screwed up mechanically and mentally when he fought Young. He beats Jimmy 9 of 10 times. He looked all wrong that fight. Bouncing around; little punching; very little jabbing; it was strange.

He was basically mentally shot to pieces at that time, and basically needed the lengthy layoff to pull himself back together. By the time he came back in the late 80's he'd had a lot of time to reflect, and put the Ali loss behind him. During this time the loss was still very fresh on his mind, and still leaving him more than a little frazzled, and not himself.

I don't think he would've struggled as badly as he did against Ron Lyle if not for the Ali defeat either.

It also shows something was amiss, that a significantly lesser version of Joe Frazier was able to last more rounds with GF than the prime Frazier he'd fought in Kingston could.

Yeah, five rounds with a shaved headed and soft plump Frazier. After Ali, it was obvious that Foreman was in emotional pain beginning with his debacle in Toronto. I remember he was always trying to prove he had stamina rather than use what nature gave him. He was so very messed up. I'm not sure I can think of a fighter who reacted to a loss like that. It wasn't a tomato can he lost to, it was Ali, the greatest. Mindboggling.

Kelly Pavlik completely fell apart after one loss.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:44

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:42

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:37

He was basically mentally shot to pieces at that time, and basically needed the lengthy layoff to pull himself back together. By the time he came back in the late 80's he'd had a lot of time to reflect, and put the Ali loss behind him. During this time the loss was still very fresh on his mind, and still leaving him more than a little frazzled, and not himself.

I don't think he would've struggled as badly as he did against Ron Lyle if not for the Ali defeat either.

It also shows something was amiss, that a significantly lesser version of Joe Frazier was able to last more rounds with GF than the prime Frazier he'd fought in Kingston could.

Yeah, five rounds with a shaved headed and soft plump Frazier. After Ali, it was obvious that Foreman was in emotional pain beginning with his debacle in Toronto. I remember he was always trying to prove he had stamina rather than use what nature gave him. He was so very messed up. I'm not sure I can think of a fighter who reacted to a loss like that. It wasn't a tomato can he lost to, it was Ali, the greatest. Mindboggling.

Kelly Pavlik completely fell apart after one loss.

Yes he did, and so did others ,but in Foreman's case, the effect was so deep and consuming to him. The Young fight was 3 years after Zaire. He didn't even fight in 1975 (not counting Toronto). I think he really believed (and why not?) that he was invincible and wham...he had the canvas pulled right out from under him. Look at the years he took to reconcile with himself. Pavlik's case doesn't seem to compare, although I didn't follow his saga as much as Foreman's.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:44

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:42
Yeah, five rounds with a shaved headed and soft plump Frazier. After Ali, it was obvious that Foreman was in emotional pain beginning with his debacle in Toronto. I remember he was always trying to prove he had stamina rather than use what nature gave him. He was so very messed up. I'm not sure I can think of a fighter who reacted to a loss like that. It wasn't a tomato can he lost to, it was Ali, the greatest. Mindboggling.

Kelly Pavlik completely fell apart after one loss.

Yes he did, and so did others ,but in Foreman's case, the effect was so deep and consuming to him. The Young fight was 3 years after Zaire. He didn't even fight in 1975 (not counting Toronto). I think he really believed (and why not?) that he was invincible and wham...he had the canvas pulled right out from under him. Look at the years he took to reconcile with himself. Pavlik's case doesn't seem to compare, although I didn't follow his saga as much as Foreman's.

Pavlik became an alcoholic, and never won another major fight just a few years after being Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year. I'd say it was a similar mental unraveling. All he needs is to find Jesus, and make a comeback, and it'll be almost exactly the same.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:44

Kelly Pavlik completely fell apart after one loss.

Yes he did, and so did others ,but in Foreman's case, the effect was so deep and consuming to him. The Young fight was 3 years after Zaire. He didn't even fight in 1975 (not counting Toronto). I think he really believed (and why not?) that he was invincible and wham...he had the canvas pulled right out from under him. Look at the years he took to reconcile with himself. Pavlik's case doesn't seem to compare, although I didn't follow his saga as much as Foreman's.

Pavlik became an alcoholic, and never won another major fight just a few years after being Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year. I'd say it was a similar mental unraveling. All he needs is to find Jesus, and make a comeback, and it'll be almost exactly the same.

Yeah ok. And they both lost to legends.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:53

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:50

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:48
Yes he did, and so did others ,but in Foreman's case, the effect was so deep and consuming to him. The Young fight was 3 years after Zaire. He didn't even fight in 1975 (not counting Toronto). I think he really believed (and why not?) that he was invincible and wham...he had the canvas pulled right out from under him. Look at the years he took to reconcile with himself. Pavlik's case doesn't seem to compare, although I didn't follow his saga as much as Foreman's.

Pavlik became an alcoholic, and never won another major fight just a few years after being Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year. I'd say it was a similar mental unraveling. All he needs is to find Jesus, and make a comeback, and it'll be almost exactly the same.

Yeah ok. And they both lost to legends.

Yep.

Don't know why Pavlik took his loss so hard honestly, maybe because he was fighting a former Champ in his 40's who he perceived as washed up going in or something? It's weird

Or maybe because he lost so thoroughly, and wasn't competitive in the slightest. Don't know, but he certainly should've had more to offer the Boxing world if his mental makeup was made of stronger stuff.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:30

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:28

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:22 It wasn't the heat. He just fought poorly; he was off of his game. However, say he got his a$$ kicked is a an exaggeration. He lost. It was a particularly close fight, but it was not domination either.

I agree with about 70% of this. GF had about 11 excuses in Zaire but a tough guy from Houston wouldn't have used the heat as an excuse for a March evening.

Foreman could never have beaten a prime, Ali, Holmes or Young. I still rate him in my top 10 for all time HWs though.

He clearly lost a decision. Ass kicking may be a very slight exaggeration. GF did use not drinking enough water as an excuse. What would have happened if they fought that night in 72 degree air conditioning? Who knows? We do know GF had a lot of trouble with great boxers.

I agree on Ali or Holmes. Don't agree on Young.

I would have agreed with you on Young before the Young-Foreman fight.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 15:10

gilgamesh wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:30

Tony1244 wrote: ↑14 Jan 2019, 14:28

I agree with about 70% of this. GF had about 11 excuses in Zaire but a tough guy from Houston wouldn't have used the heat as an excuse for a March evening.

Foreman could never have beaten a prime, Ali, Holmes or Young. I still rate him in my top 10 for all time HWs though.

He clearly lost a decision. Ass kicking may be a very slight exaggeration. GF did use not drinking enough water as an excuse. What would have happened if they fought that night in 72 degree air conditioning? Who knows? We do know GF had a lot of trouble with great boxers.

I agree on Ali or Holmes. Don't agree on Young.

I would have agreed with you on Young before the Young-Foreman fight.

A Foreman that's not mentally frazzled could beat Jimmy Young.