Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 11:45
by SenorPipino
oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 11:35
We don't know the truth. These things don't happen suddenly. It's usually a time of manipulation and 'grooming.' Now, while saying that, I don't believe a word of it!
Well, who said it?
Leonard definitely? Or a poster who totally misread or has poor recall about what Leonard wrote on the matter?
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 11:54
by oogiebe
SenorPipino wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 11:45
Well, who said it?
Leonard definitely? Or a poster who totally misread or has poor recall about what Leonard wrote on the matter?
I never heard Leonard discuss it, but in all fairness, I don't go out of my way to hear him speak. I've already dismissed this as not worth my time. Good questions.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 12:35
by Nile4000
Ray said other fighters came to him and told him the trainer did the same thing to them. Wonder if they were known amateur stars?
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 14:54
by Caractacus
SenorPipino wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 11:32
I'd have reread that portion of Leonard's autobio.
But Leonard was 20 and one of the finest amateur fighters on the planet in 1976.
He wasn't a little kid. Seems a bit unlikely that a coach is going to force himself on Leonard at that point.
Very hard to swallow.
well he wrote that it happened before the 1976 Olympics,so he was at least 18 or 19.
also he wrote that something weird happened with the same Boxing Coach
even earlier just before the 1972 Olympic trials in Utica New York.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 15:14
by SenorPipino
Caractacus wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 14:54
well he wrote that it happened before the 1976 Olympics,so he was at least 18 or 19.
also he wrote that something weird happened with the same Boxing Coach
even earlier just before the 1972 Olympic trials in Utica New York.
Checking all this out, it appears that the first incident definitely happened in 1971 in Utica, New York. Leonard was 15.
It involved taking a bath with another young fighter while the unnamed coach watched.
It's difficult to exactly pin down the date of the second encounter. It's only described as a few years later.
That's when the same coach opened Leonard's pants while they were together in a car alone discussing prospects for the 1976 Olympics.
A few years later would mean Leonard was around 17 or 18.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 15:19
by Caractacus
Sugar Ray Leonard mentions another amateur fighter's name in his book
who was also traveling with him around that time (1971-72)
but doesn't name the dude that the Olympic Coach was watching him take a bath in epsom salts with was
but you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 15:31
by Caractacus
I think I may have found out ( searching for clues on-line)
who the second other dude was that Sugar Ray Leonard wrote about in his autobiography,
who wanted to be re-paid back apparently for his generosity.
( an elderly White man with a bald head at the local Country Club who always wore a suit and tie)
but this person died in 1973. ( at age 60 )
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 15:45
by Caractacus
you know Sugar Ray Leonard mentions these perpatraters but didn't name them,
so he ineviattably cast a lot of doubt on people who were around him at that time unfortantely leading to specualtion
about who these two who may or may not have been.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 15:50
by SenorPipino
Caractacus wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 15:45
you know Sugar Ray Leonard mentions these perpatraters but didn't name them,
so he ineviattably cast a lot of doubt on people who were around him at that time unfortantely leading to specualtion
about who these two who may or may not have been.
I see varying accounts which indicate that there were either 2 different coaches involved or that the Utica coach and the one in the car were the same.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 19:39
by Caractacus
well Sugar Ray Leonard in his own autobiography clearly says it was 2 different people.
I'm guessing that it happened when somewhere around the time he just turned 16 in 1972.
Because who would try to do that to a grown 20 year old man in 1976 with 5 years expierance as an amateur boxer ?
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:14
by SenorPipino
Caractacus wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 19:39
well Sugar Ray Leonard in his own autobiography clearly says it was 2 different people.
I'm guessing that it happened when somewhere around the time he just turned 16 in 1972.
Because who would try to do that to a grown 20 year old man in 1976 with 5 years expierance as an amateur boxer ?
I think that it might have been later than 1972. Leonard and the coach were already discussing prospects for 1976, so it probably would have been around 1974.
The first incident is clearly reported as being in 1971.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:15
by oogiebe
SenorPipino wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 20:14
I think that it might have been later than 1972. Leonard and the coach were already discussing prospects for 1976, so it probably would have been around 1974.
The first incident is clearly reported as being in 1971.
So we're saying that Leonard's best performance was in the back seat of Chevy Nova???
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:17
by Caractacus
yeah,he scored with the chicks in it at the Drive-in with his coaches borrowed car.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:18
by SenorPipino
oogiebe wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 20:15
So we're saying that Leonard's best performance was in the back seat of Chevy Nova???
All indications are that Leonard's performance was poor.
When the action started, he bolted and left the arena.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:19
by tiny_acres
SenorPipino wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 20:18
All indications are that Leonard's performance was poor.
When the action started, he bolted and left the arena.
I don't believe it
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:23
by SenorPipino
tiny_acres wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 20:19
I don't believe it
You don't believe that the entire episode occured or that Leonard performed poorly?
Apparently not up for the occasion.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:34
by Onetimeonly
Caractacus wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 19:39
well Sugar Ray Leonard in his own autobiography clearly says it was 2 different people.
I'm guessing that it happened when somewhere around the time he just turned 16 in 1972.
Because who would try to do that to a grown 20 year old man in 1976 with 5 years expierance as an amateur boxer ?
Any old man trying that on a 16 year old bad ass would be in a world of hurt. Doesn't make it right, but he could have stopped it.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 11 Apr 2019, 20:39
by Onetimeonly
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑11 Apr 2019, 10:46
Yes obviously Leonard as a teenager was turned on by the 70 year old man. I know you hate Leonard, but get a grip.
Evidently he was. Not a problem, I didn't cheer for him but I wish him no harm. Just comes off like bullshit, like his squeaky clean image was. You 'love' him far more than I 'hate' him. Has nothing to do with him being, at a minimum, one of the 25 greatest fighters that ever lived.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 12 Apr 2019, 12:10
by Ambling Alp II
I think you know he wasn't.
You have ripping him for years on this site. You don't like him. I remember you claiming that Emile Griffith was better; which is ridiculous. (cue elmer)
I was a fan of his; like you were of Hearns, Whitaker and Saad Muhammad. (Actually I was a Saad Muhammad fan as well.)
When there is a guy that some else like you refer to the poster as fan boy. Well, you can just as easily say that about you for the guys that you like. Leonard wasn't perfect; nobody is. But overall he seemed like one of the a good guys. If you don't like him, fine. However, you don't have to get nasty about it.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 12 Apr 2019, 14:42
by Caractacus
One Time Only also isn't a fan of the great Bruce Lee either apparently.
Betcha this is one of the movies that Sugar Ray Leonard saw at the Drive-In
when he borowed his coaches station wagon to take a date.
( released 7.November.1972 in USA)
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 12 Apr 2019, 14:49
by Onetimeonly
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Apr 2019, 12:10
I think you know he wasn't.
You have ripping him for years on this site. You don't like him. I remember you claiming that Emile Griffith was better; which is ridiculous. (cue elmer)
I was a fan of his; like you were of Hearns, Whitaker and Saad Muhammad. (Actually I was a Saad Muhammad fan as well.)
When there is a guy that some else like you refer to the poster as fan boy. Well, you can just as easily say that about you for the guys that you like. Leonard wasn't perfect; nobody is. But overall he seemed like one of the a good guys. If you don't like him, fine. However, you don't have to get nasty about it.
I've never said Griffith was better than Leonard. I have them close, think ray was the better fighter. Many of the guys I rank highly I'm not a fan of. I'm not getting nasty, I didn't bring it up.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 12 Apr 2019, 15:13
by Caractacus
Check out this rarely seen interview from 1987.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 13 Apr 2019, 14:39
by Caractacus
Must have happened in Bedford Stuyvesant in 1973 because he didnt move to Brownsville in Brooklyn NY until 1976
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 14 Apr 2019, 11:43
by Cojimar 1946
I don't think putting Griffith ahead of Leonard is at all ridiculous. Leonard fans can fall back on the argument that Leonard had fewer losses but that's at least partially a product of fighting in an era when more emphasis was placed on unbeaten records and fighters fought less frequently.
Re: Sugar Ray Leonard's Most Extraordinary Performance at Welterweight
Posted: 14 Apr 2019, 18:27
by Ambling Alp II
Leonard had few losses. Had better wins.
Did literally everything in the ring as good or better than Griffith. So yes, it is ridiculous to rate Griffith higher.
