Sugar Ray Leonard, what if?

[elmersalsa]

I don't care how many "world" champions someone beat. Beating a guy who had a paper title doesn't mean anything at all to me.

You want to mock the win over Lalonde? Fine.

Lets take a look at who Mayweather beat for his titles:
Super Featherweight -He beat Genaro Hernandez
Light weight - Jose Luis castillo. (Even i n that fight, he looked like crap and didn't dserve the decision.)
Super Light weight - Arturo Gatti
Welterweight -Carlos Baldomir
Super Welterweight Past it De La Hoya (who you are always mocking)

So flipping what?

Leoanrd:
welterweight against Benitez.
He won the middleweight title against Hagler.
So no, I don't care about Mayweather's "World titles".

Beating a a guy in the Top 50 does. Beating 4 of them is a lot more impressive than beating 1. I also don't give Mayweather credit for beating any, since none were anywhere near a top 50 when he fought them.

I don't consider Buchanan, Dejesus, Marcel and Palomino near the level of Benitez, Hearns and Hagler. It's that simple.
Iran Barkley Barkley a great fighter? Come flippin on. Ayub Kalue was a better fighter.

When Duran moves up it's a big deal to you. I don't think it's any bigger than anyone else who moves up. Hearns moved up multiple times. . Benitez moved up multiple times. Leonard himself moved. I don't expect a guy who wins a title at the age of 21 to never move up.

The rematches? Well, Hearns, Duran, and Benitez all moved out of the welterweight class . Why is it it Leonard's responsibility to give up his title and go after someone he had already stopped?

And shut the hell up about Leonard beating one true welterweight. Total nonsense.

Ooooohhhhh! Now world champions don't mean nothing. Interesting. Let's not diminish the great accomplishments of the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr. Like him or not, He is one of the most dominant boxers of the last two decades! He beat 17 world champions. As a matter of fact, HE BEAT EVERY SINGLE MEANINGFUL FIGHTER OF HIS TIME:
Diego Corrales
Genaro Hernandez
Jose Luis Castillo (at least he won the second fight)
Arturo Gatti
Zab Judah
Oscar De La Hoya

Manny Pacquiao (a top 50 fighter all time pound per pound great that is better than Hearns, Marvelous and Benitez)

Shane Mosley
Canelo Alvarez
Ricky Hatton
Marcos Maidana

Juan Manuel Marquez ( a top 100 all time pound per pound great)

Miguel Cotto

and others I can't remember right now because he beat them so clearly it was not even a match. With NO STIPULATIONS. No catch-weight stuff. No enlarging the ring. None of that! Boxing skill! That's how he won his fights. They might not be Fab 4 material, but good fighters indeed. He could only fight the guys of his time. So you are going to penalize him for that? He did it going up in weight! He won 5 world championships in 5 different weight classes. He didn't do that 2 titles in one night junk like Sugar Ray did.


Now, Duran oh boy! That's another dimension. Another story. The man was so dominant at Lightweight that he had to jump to two weight classes for a decent fight. The featherweight champions did not challenged him. The Jr. Lightweight champions didn't challenged him. The Jr Welterweight champion didn't want nothing to do with him. Duran never fought a champion under his weight class. Leonard did. Duran never fought a washed up boxer when he was in his prime. Leonard did. Duran whupped a prime Leonard going up 2 weight classes. That was a remarkable feat and is still today.

Can you imagine Wilfredo Gomez taking Duran's title?
Can you imagine Alexis Arguello taking Duran's title?
Can you imagine Danny Lopez, Eusebio Pedroza, Ruben Olivares or Salvador Sanchez doing that? It didn't happen.

Sugar Ray had to wait for Marvelous to slip up. Duran went toe to toe with prime Marvelous.

Sugar Ray beat Hearns, Duran and Benitez at 147. His weight class. Duran didn't fight Benitez nor Hearns at 147. Duran wasn't in his prime when he fought Benitez nor Hearns. Leonard was.

See, the ONLY THING you got going for Leonard is those 4 big wins. Three of them were at his weight class, in his prime. Two of them wins were not against natural Welterweight boxers. The one with Marvelous was when Marvelous was already in decline. It would have been much better in '82. I would favor Marvelous to win then.

Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus and Ernesto Marcel were excellent and outstanding boxers. They may not be top 100 material, but we're very good nonetheless. Two of them are top 20 all time lightweight greats at least. Duran beat them three. He could only fight the fighters in his prime.

And longevity wise, after 1984, Leonard's career was a TOTAL CIRCUS. Retires and un-retires. Kevin Howard dropped him. Barely beats a FADING MARVELOUS. Two titles in one night against Donny Lalonde? Hearns whupped him in the rematch. Ran all night against a 38 year old Duran. Got smacked around against Terry Norris. I am not gonna bring the Hector "Macho" Camacho fight. That would not be fair.

Meanwhile, Duran after prime, wins two more titles against men that were bigger, faster, taller, stronger and younger than he. I don't see Leonard winning anything after age 32. Duran at age 37 is the middleweight champion? That's like Sugar Ray at that age taking the title against Vasily Jirov at cruiserweight.

Duran was better in longevity.
Duran had much more fights.
Duran had a longer prime than Sugar Ray. Everybody knows that.
Duran held the crown longer than Leonard. Leonard lost it to a lightweight. Duran never lost it to no super bantanweight nor featherweight.
Duran did much better after prime than Leonard. He won two world crowns when he was considered washed up after "No Mas".

Did Leonard win any titles after being washed up? If not, how could he be top ten all time? He doesn't have enough fights. The guys in the top 10 had at least 60 fights with the exception of Floyd.

I will leave it at that. Floyd and Roberto were better than Sugar Ray in my estimation.

[elmersalsa]

And don't forget that Ernesto Marcel beat the great Alexis Arguello in Arguello's prime, Ambling Alp. Duran beat Marcel by knockout. See? Greatness come in degrees.

[Ambling Alp II]

Rinse and repeat.

[Ambling Alp II]

Kalule never beat a top-level guy , including kalambay from many opinions...
Barkley a 3 division champ who beat a hall of famer all time great twice and came very close to beating another.

The Kalambay-Kalue fight was literally in Kalambays' hometown in Italy. Hard to believe that Kalue didn't deserve the decision.

Barkley's three titles show how irrelevant the WBS titles are. One he won against Darren Van Horn. Take a look at his whole career. The guy was nothing special at all.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Hank Aaron played 3,298 games. Wtf is wrong with you that you pull out something like that and wonder why you get ridiculed? I'm sure you mean at bats, even then you're excluding plate appearances. Nothing is ever accurate with you, just one way nonsense to suit your whims. Hank also didn't face the same pitcher everyday and faced all the best players of his time. Any who, I think bonds was significantly greater than either of them.

- OK, Henry made a simple clerical error easily understood by Perno's figures, but you?

Babe facing the same pitcher every day and not the best players? Fan of Balco Barry?

OK then, let us deep fry some El Lardo for fun and snickers.

19 yr old Babe set set his first record 5 days out of the orphanage he was raised in during spring training in Fayetteville, NC where he busted Jim Thorpe's record with a massive homerun. Kid got in some world series pitching records, at least one that is still standing. Still in the top ten of MLB pitchers in win% and ERA, and one of the few pitchers who never had a losing season, all before his full prime as a Yankee.

#1 Slugging %, top ten in Batting and On Base %, and the best all around season in baseball history for his last 1919 Boston year where he broke every obscure homerun record the press could drum up while going 9-5 as a pitcher with one of the highest Run Production% in history, that being .635, meaning for every out he made he produced on average .635 runs, the only true offensive value of any player.

Set the all time run production% record as a Yankee and #1 in career run production%. Played against the best Cubanos and black players of his day during post season exhibitions games that he was heavily fined and suspended for by the commish in the beginning until he figured legally he and his team of Yanks couldn't play exhibitions in team uniforms, so he created his own. I could go on, but even if you don't get it, others already do.

Babe was also a scratch golfer, high average ambidextrous bowler, and excellent hunter back when hunters weren't baiters and actually had to find and then stalk their prey sometimes for hours for a clear shot. Around age 22 he held out in spring training for $5,000 in a time players had no rights above that of a race horse and signed $5K contract to fight Jack Johnson friend and sparmate Gunboat Smith and went into training. That brought Boston back to the table to meet his demands.

Balco Barry lotsa fun sizzlin' in yer fat: We have the specific time he appears on Balco records that poetically coincides with traditional declining years of athletic production after his "career ending" achilles surgery. Pre BA .287/Balco post prime BA .341---Pre OBA .407/post prime Balco .535---Pre SA .561/post prime Balco .782---Pre HR yearly average 31.8/post prime Balco 51.6---Pre run production% .441/post prime Balco .620.

You Pre .Fat/post prime Balco .Fatter, and that be that and all that matters as you get ever more fatter.

What if answer: Ray A+ talent/D grade durability/made millions/end of.

And what if Tex Cobb had Ali speed and reflexes? Would he have dominated boxing for 30 years? We want to know!

[elmersalsa]

Rinse and repeat.

Gotcha, mister!

[elmersalsa]

The Kalambay-Kalue fight was literally in Kalambays' hometown in Italy. Hard to believe that Kalue didn't deserve the decision.

Barkley's three titles show how irrelevant the WBS titles are. One he won against Darren Van Horn. Take a look at his whole career. The guy was nothing special at all.

Neither were Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany, Floyd Mayweather, Sr, Ayub Kalule nor Donny Lalonde

[Duran1970]

The Kalambay-Kalue fight was literally in Kalambays' hometown in Italy. Hard to believe that Kalue didn't deserve the decision.

Barkley's three titles show how irrelevant the WBS titles are. One he won against Darren Van Horn. Take a look at his whole career. The guy was nothing special at all.

Nor were Kudo, Villa, Benes, Bester

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course Kalue beat some guys that were nothing special. So has everyone. At least he was consistent though.

[Ambling Alp II]

Neither were Randy Shields, Pete Ranzany, Floyd Mayweather, Sr, Ayub Kalule nor Donny Lalonde

Nope just good fighters. Three of them when Leonard was an inexperienced fighter before he had ever fought for a title.

Anyway, just wondering with all of Duran's wins and impressive longevity, whom did he ever beat that would of beat Leonard?
Love to hear the names.

[Duran1970]

Camacho. Lol

[Ambling Alp II]

Duran did not beat Camacho. And of course I mean Leonard being close to his prime.
Anyone that Duran actually beat? Anyone ?

[Onetimeonly]

To be fair, has any lightweight beat anyone through their career you'd pick to beat Leonard? Well, other than Langford.

[Ambling Alp II]

If we are doing the Duran is Forever a lightweight thing, and apply it to other lightweights, Ray Robinson began as a lightweight.
This isn't slam at Duran per se. Just comparing him to Leonard.

[Duran1970]

Duran did not beat Camacho. And of course I mean Leonard being close to his prime.
Anyone that Duran actually beat? Anyone ?

Duran did beat Camacho just like Hagler beat Leonard

[elmersalsa]

Nope just good fighters. Three of them when Leonard was an inexperienced fighter before he had ever fought for a title.

Anyway, just wondering with all of Duran's wins and impressive longevity, whom did he ever beat that would of beat Leonard?
Love to hear the names.

Iran Barkley
Davey Moore
Ken Buchanan if both were lightweights
Esteban De Jesus if both were lightweights
Ernesto Marcel if both were featherweights

Any fighter could beat any other fighter any other given time. You are talking like if Leonard could never lose. At least Duran didn't lose his crown to a featherweight. Leonard lost it to a lightweight. Fair enough?

[elmersalsa]

Duran did not beat Camacho. And of course I mean Leonard being close to his prime.
Anyone that Duran actually beat? Anyone ?

Has anyone that Leonard beat has beaten Duran in Duran's prime?
Benitez didn't beat Duran in Duran's prime. Neither The Hitman nor Marvelous

[elmersalsa]

Nope just good fighters. Three of them when Leonard was an inexperienced fighter before he had ever fought for a title.

Anyway, just wondering with all of Duran's wins and impressive longevity, whom did he ever beat that would of beat Leonard?
Love to hear the names.

Also Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas.

[elmersalsa]

Nope just good fighters. Three of them when Leonard was an inexperienced fighter before he had ever fought for a title.

Anyway, just wondering with all of Duran's wins and impressive longevity, whom did he ever beat that would of beat Leonard?
Love to hear the names.

Another question. Name me one Welterweight that Sugar Ray beat that beats Marvelous?

[Onetimeonly]

If we are doing the Duran is Forever a lightweight thing, and apply it to other lightweights, Ray Robinson began as a lightweight.
This isn't slam at Duran per se. Just comparing him to Leonard.

I'm not saying he's forever a lightweight, I think his absolute prime occurred at welter. But almost 80 bouts were contested there so the question you're posing is a bit loaded considering Leonard is one of the absolute greatest fighters of all time. I imagine your question came off some Elmer nonsense, but resumes with guys that beat Leonard without a size advantage are a needle in a haystack. I mean obviously he'd lose some facing all the best, but he'd be favored in almost all of them.

[elmersalsa]

As a matter of fact, today's Sugar Ray Leonard's 63rd birthday. Happy Birthday, champ!

[Ambling Alp II]

Also Carlos Palomino and Pipino Cuevas.

You think Palomino and Cuevas would beat Leonard. Wow. OK, I think we are done here.

[Ambling Alp II]

I'm not saying he's forever a lightweight, I think his absolute prime occurred at welter. But almost 80 bouts were contested there so the question you're posing is a bit loaded considering Leonard is one of the absolute greatest fighters of all time. I imagine your question came off some Elmer nonsense, but resumes with guys that beat Leonard without a size advantage are a needle in a haystack. I mean obviously he'd lose some facing all the best, but he'd be favored in almost all of them.

He actually fought less than 60 at light weight. He fought many fights well over 135 when he was the light weight champion.

I think when comparing them head to head, it's a fair question. Obviously Duran's resume is great. But strictly comparing him to Leonard, it's fair.

Why should it be a big deal for Duran to have beaten someone that was not in Leonard's league? That clearly wasn't as good as Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler?
Saying someone beat Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino, Cuevas sounds great. But when you are comparing him to Leonard (or a handful of other greats), so what?
Leonard did beat three different truly great fighters who beat Duran. That counts for an awful lot.

[elmersalsa]

He actually fought less than 60 at light weight. He fought many fights well over 135 when he was the light weight champion.

I think when comparing them head to head, it's a fair question. Obviously Duran's resume is great. But strictly comparing him to Leonard, it's fair.

Why should it be a big deal for Duran to have beaten someone that was not in Leonard's league? That clearly wasn't as good as Benitez, Hearns, and Hagler?
Saying someone beat Buchanan, DeJesus, Palomino, Cuevas sounds great. But when you are comparing him to Leonard (or a handful of other greats), so what?
Leonard did beat three different truly great fighters who beat Duran. That counts for an awful lot.

Did they beat him at Lightweight?
Did those fighters beat him at least at Welterweight?
Did they beat him in his prime circa 1972-80?
You know the answer.

[elmersalsa]

You think Palomino and Cuevas would beat Leonard. Wow. OK, I think we are done here.

Yes, they could. Why can't they?

Let's be technical, then. Does any Welterweight that Sugar Ray beat beats Marvelous?