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Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 22 May 2019, 12:04
by Duran1970
Vegas helped Leonard s resume
If anyone thinks ray gets the decision against Hagler and a draw with Hearns if those fights weren't in Nevada need to take the blinders off...and if the first Duran fight was in Vegas they would've given it to ray also.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 22 May 2019, 12:46
by Onetimeonly
Duran1970 wrote: ↑22 May 2019, 12:04
Vegas helped Leonard s resume
If anyone thinks ray gets the decision against Hagler and a draw with Hearns if those fights weren't in Nevada need to take the blinders off...and if the first Duran fight was in Vegas they would've given it to ray also.
The hearns fight was a robbery, he beat hagler. None of that has anything to do with you pretending the Kevin Howard fight resembles Leonard prime. Lol, talk about blinders. Judges wouldn't be needed for Pryor.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 22 May 2019, 15:32
by Duran1970
Where did I say Leonard was in his prime
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 04 Jul 2019, 13:39
by Brian Seneca
cfang wrote: ↑19 May 2019, 04:49
In terms of career he's about 15 or so but in a head to head, he'd have a chance to beat anybody at welter ever in my book.
Ray Robinson!? Not even close. The REAL Sugar was the best welterweight ever
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 04 Jul 2019, 13:50
by Brian Seneca
Ray was great. Top 20. That is all. His career from Hagler on is a joke. Unless you were in love with him and drank the cool-aid you witnessed manipulation and game playing to get every advantage pre fight that he could. He needed to be assured there was minimal risk. Hearns came to fight, he miscalculated there. I still feel you need to convincingly beat a world champion. Sorry I didn’t and still don’t see this in the Hagler fight. He waited until a REAL champion was ravaged by defending against Hearns and an undefeated and still dangerous Mugabi. Could you see Leonard doing this? He would probably make up some nonsense that a Mugabi fight isn’t what the public wants. Translation: I could get knocked the f out. First career GREAT! Second career JOKE! Top 20
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 04 Jul 2019, 17:03
by elmersalsa
Brian Seneca wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 13:50
Ray was great. Top 20. That is all. His career from Hagler on is a joke. Unless you were in love with him and drank the cool-aid you witnessed manipulation and game playing to get every advantage pre fight that he could. He needed to be assured there was minimal risk. Hearns came to fight, he miscalculated there. I still feel you need to convincingly beat a world champion. Sorry I didn’t and still don’t see this in the Hagler fight. He waited until a REAL champion was ravaged by defending against Hearns and an undefeated and still dangerous Mugabi. Could you see Leonard doing this? He would probably make up some nonsense that a Mugabi fight isn’t what the public wants. Translation: I could get knocked the f out. First career GREAT! Second career JOKE! Top 20
And that's how I see it, too. First career, the first 5 years between 1977-82 were the golden years. From 1984 to 1997, it was a TOTAL CIRCUS for me.
He beat the guys AT HIS WEIGHT CLASS. Above the Welterweight limit? Mmmmmm!
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 22 Jul 2019, 17:13
by fanman
top 5 i'd say. some great wins at welter. then captures the midd. title after 1 fight in 5 years. beats lalonde at 168 despite weighing less than 160.
ok, not the deepest record.
but arguably beat: the best ever middleweight, the best ever lightweight, the best ever light middleweight (hearns)
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 08:25
by tobyh5
HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 May 2019, 00:24
Mickey Walker, for example, was welterweight and middleweight champion who fought for the heavyweight title for crying out loud.
Which heayweight title was that? The Henry Made-Up Bullsh!t title?
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:39
by Ambling Alp II
I think it's usually called the HMUBS title for short.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 10:47
by Ambling Alp II
fanman wrote: ↑22 Jul 2019, 17:13
top 5 i'd say. some great wins at welter. then captures the midd. title after 1 fight in 5 years. beats lalonde at 168 despite weighing less than 160.
ok, not the deepest record.
but arguably beat: the best ever middleweight, the best ever lightweight, the best ever light middleweight (hearns)
That close to where I am at. Robinson, Armstrong, Ali, Langford, and Greb are the only one's I have ahead of him.
The guy had wins over Benitiez, Duran, Hearns, and Hagler. No bad losses. When you weigh it, it compares favorably to just about everyone else.
Instead we get crybaby excuses for his opponents that you would never hear for anyone else. Or they focus on the two titles from the LaLonde fight. He doesn't need those two titles to make one of the very, very best. Nobody ever mentions to make a case for Leonard, so why are the haters so obsessed with it?
He isn't just top 20. He isn't borderline top 10. He is rock solid top 10.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 11:04
by Seamus
What's with this Real Sugar Ray crap ? Do you make the same arguments for Jack Dempsey, Young Corbett's, Sugar Ray Seales (never heard complaints about him calling himself Sugar Ray) etc
SRL is easily a top 10 alltime great.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 12:16
by Duran1970
fanman wrote: ↑22 Jul 2019, 17:13
top 5 i'd say. some great wins at welter. then captures the midd. title after 1 fight in 5 years. beats lalonde at 168 despite weighing less than 160.
ok, not the deepest record.
but arguably beat: the best ever middleweight, the best ever lightweight, the best ever light middleweight (hearns)
Didn't weigh less than 160 for Lalonde
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 14:39
by Tony1244
To make a joke perhaps only Gilgamesh will get SRL is either #11 or #18.
Any ranking of SRL in the top 20 is reasonable.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 15:45
by Ambling Alp II
There is no way in the world that there is 19 fighters better than him. He is Top 10. Should not even be a question.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 15:50
by oogiebe
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 15:45
There is no way in the world that there is 19 fighters better than him. He is Top 10. Should not even be a question.
Folks have opinions. Without being able to transport fighters back in time it isn't factual. Live with it.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 16:17
by Onetimeonly
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 14:39
To make a joke perhaps only Gilgamesh will get SRL is either #11 or #18.
Any ranking of SRL in the top 20 is reasonable.
I can't see him top 5. 8-15 seems right to me. Agreed top 20 is reasonable.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 16:54
by dr_devious
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 15:45
There is no way in the world that there is 19 fighters better than him. He is Top 10. Should not even be a question.
Agreed
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 17:56
by Tony1244
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 16:17
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 14:39
To make a joke perhaps only Gilgamesh will get SRL is either #11 or #18.
Any ranking of SRL in the top 20 is reasonable.
I can't see him top 5. 8-15 seems right to me. Agreed top 20 is reasonable.
I wouldn't put SRL top 5 either. Louis, Langford, Ali, Armstrong, maybe Pep.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 19:28
by elmersalsa
I have 17 fighters that were better than Sugar Ray Leonard. And I think that is reasonable. Top ten for him would be an exaggeration.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 19:59
by Onetimeonly
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 17:56
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 16:17
I can't see him top 5. 8-15 seems right to me. Agreed top 20 is reasonable.
I wouldn't put SRL top 5 either. Louis, Langford, Ali, Armstrong, maybe Pep.
Mine is pretty impenetrable. Langford, greb, Robinson, Armstrong and Charles.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 20:10
by oogiebe
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 19:59
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 17:56
I wouldn't put SRL top 5 either. Louis, Langford, Ali, Armstrong, maybe Pep.
Mine is pretty impenetrable. Langford, greb, Robinson, Armstrong and Charles.
Impenetrable.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 20:32
by Tony1244
Why isn't Tunney ever listed in the top 5? His track record is quite excellent.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 20:37
by oogiebe
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 20:32
Why isn't Tunney ever listed in the top 5? His track record is quite excellent.
I never thought of Tunney as top 5 or even 10. Maybe not even top 20 P4P. He didn't do anything remarkably. He did a lot of things really well. A terrific boxer/puncher who caught Dempsey at the right time. Had he fought a few more title defenses after the rematch his stock may have gone up. Beating Greb 4(?) times certainly helps him, but Harry was a smaller fighter who had beaten Tunney once.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 22:01
by Onetimeonly
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 20:32
Why isn't Tunney ever listed in the top 5? His track record is quite excellent.
Like I said, the top 5 for me is unyielding except for the order. Greb is unquestionably greater IMO but gene certainly isn't out of place top 10 or 20. Canzoneri is the most perennially underrated and pep the most overrated to me. Unless some loons want to talk Wilde or Chavez top 25.
Re: Where Do You Rank Sugar Ray Leonard in the Pound per Pound All Time List?
Posted: 23 Jul 2019, 22:06
by Onetimeonly
oogiebe wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 20:37
Tony1244 wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 20:32
Why isn't Tunney ever listed in the top 5? His track record is quite excellent.
I never thought of Tunney as top 5 or even 10. Maybe not even top 20 P4P. He didn't do anything remarkably. He did a lot of things really well. A terrific boxer/puncher who caught Dempsey at the right time. Had he fought a few more title defenses after the rematch his stock may have gone up. Beating Greb 4(?) times certainly helps him, but Harry was a smaller fighter who had beaten Tunney once.
Tunney was 3-1-1 against green if I recall correctly. One being a derided decision for gene. As much as a cock as klompton is, he knows that inside out. If you see the "officious little prick" about, ask him. Bonus points for knowing the literary reference in quotations.