BoxRec

Logic is wasted. Eventually they'll add another heavy weight division, but i doubt if they'll fix anything else.

I mean it doesn't take THAT much power to put anyone away if you hit them just right in the right place. The addition of weight classes, in my view, basically is a statement that no matter how hard you try you'll never make it here. That's bullshit.

The Ruiz upset is proof enough that IF you can dig down deep and don't stop throwing back, these big guys are oftentimes more defenseless than the smaller guys who can escape because they have similar strengths as you got.

It's like I told my nephew's when I taught them to box--- don't be intimidated by a much taller or heavier guy because once you bypass that reach of theirs what can they do but try and grab you to stop you from hitting them; they have no real power in close, all their power is way outside where they have leverage.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 03:48 I mean it doesn't take THAT much power to put anyone away if you hit them just right in the right place. The addition of weight classes, in my view, basically is a statement that no matter how hard you try you'll never make it here. That's bullshit.

The Ruiz upset is proof enough that IF you can dig down deep and don't stop throwing back, these big guys are oftentimes more defenseless than the smaller guys who can escape because they have similar strengths as you got.

It's like I told my nephew's when I taught them to box--- don't be intimidated by a much taller or heavier guy because once you bypass that reach of theirs what can they do but try and grab you to stop you from hitting them; they have no real power in close, all their power is way outside where they have leverage.

Your logic needs some work there, champ. Ruiz outweighed Joshua by almost 20 pounds. Like they say, the bigger they are the harder they hit!

gilgamesh wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 03:39 It would be cool to see special attraction open weight bouts now and then perhaps.

I mean Sam Langford and Joe Walcott (the original one) beat Heavyweights while being either a Welterweight or Middleweight in size, if it wasn't impossible then, it's not impossible now.

I'm not sure these arguments really stand up. In that era lots of guys fought out of necessity to feed their families. Many didn't really train and were far from being professional fighters. Of course if you put a world class welterweight fighter today in the ring with some fat unskilled bloke from the local dockyard he would pummel him in no time, but that isn't the same as a welterweight fighting a well conditioned skilled HW.

Ilya Muromets wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 04:06 Your logic needs some work there, champ. Ruiz outweighed Joshua by almost 20 pounds. Like they say, the bigger they are the harder they hit!

Ruiz was also substantially shorter, with a much smaller reach than Joshua. That was my point. Dimensions are meaningless, provided you can overcome the initial attack which is what Ruiz did. Besides, he never was a noted puncher prior to this. So your logic weight equates to power is not quite logical.

Based on the following list of high-profile fighters, the average world-rated heavyweight currently stands at 6’ 4½” tall and weighs 254lbs:

• Tyson Fury: 6' 9" 263lbs
• Deontay Wilder: 6' 7" 224lbs
• Andy Ruiz Jr.: 6' 2" 268lbs
• Anthony Joshua: 6' 6" 248lbs
• Dillian Whyte: 6' 4" 257lbs
• Luis Ortiz: 6' 4" 241lbs
• Alexander Povetkin: 6' 2" 229lbs
• Joseph Parker: 6' 4" 242lbs
• Adam Kownacki: 6' 3" 260lbs
• Kubrat Pulev: 6" 4½" 250lbs
• Oscar Rivas: 6' ½" 238lbs
• Jarrell Miller: 6' 4" 317lbs
• Dominic Breazeale: 6' 7" 256lbs

The official weight limit for cruiserweights is 200lbs, with those fighters unlikely to weigh much more than 215lbs by the time they’ve rehydrated and entered the ring for their bouts.

The likes of Dennis Lebedev, Krzysztof Glowacki and Mairis Briedis would all be made to look rather small (in terms of height & weight) in comparison to the guys listed above.

Are people seriously suggesting that there’s no such thing as possessing a physical size advantage in the heavyweight division?

In my mind, it seems inevitable for the current iteration of the heavyweight division to eventually be split into two, resulting in the creation of an additional weight class, mainly due to safety reasons and also to level the playing field.

People might cite exceptions, whereby smaller fighters have successfully overcome the challenge posed by much bigger men (i.e. the 6’ 3” 217lbs David Haye beating the 7’0” 316lbs giant Nikolay Valuev), but whether they’re willing to admit to this or not, these occurrences are in the minority.

There’s a reason why weight classes exist, it's because good big fighters usually beat good little fighters.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 04:57
In my mind, it seems inevitable for the current iteration of the heavyweight division to eventually be split into two, resulting in the creation of an additional weight class, mainly due to safety reasons and also to level the playing field.

But how would you split it, at what weight? If you created a Super CW division and made it a 220lb limit it wouldn't stop those smaller guys putting on weight to compete at the HW division, after all thats where the big bucks are.

How about flipping in on its head and introduce a weight limit at HW to stop fighters not training hard and coming into fights fat? That would make it more interesting as the obese fighters would have to drop weight to compete.

Boxing goes in cycles, people forget. For a while there was big heavyweights and they were replaced by smaller, more skillful men. That was the "Great White Hope" era of the 1910s.

Additionally, the 1930s had several large heavyweights including but not limited to Primo Carnera, Jose Santa, and Ray Impeltierre. The 1960s-1970s briefly had a resurgence of large heavyweights and the Super Heavyweight title was indeed created, which Buster Mathis won.

Since the 2000s there's been more big men than not--- however--- I think in the next 3-5 years we're going to see an influx of smaller, skillful men who are going to make the big men look silly. When Wilder, Fury and Joshua are basically on the downside we're going to see another 6'3" & 220 pound champion.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 06:12 Boxing goes in cycles, people forget. For a while there was big heavyweights and they were replaced by smaller, more skillful men. That was the "Great White Hope" era of the 1910s.

Additionally, the 1930s had several large heavyweights including but not limited to Primo Carnera, Jose Santa, and Ray Impeltierre. The 1960s-1970s briefly had a resurgence of large heavyweights and the Super Heavyweight title was indeed created, which Buster Mathis won.

Since the 2000s there's been more big men than not--- however--- I think in the next 3-5 years we're going to see an influx of smaller, skillful men who are going to make the big men look silly. When Wilder, Fury and Joshua are basically on the downside we're going to see another 6'3" & 220 pound champion.

How about my suggestion that the HW division has a weight limit that you cannot weigh over to stop fighters coming in fat and without training properly, maybe linked to a height table.

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 06:16 How about my suggestion that the HW division has a weight limit that you cannot weigh over to stop fighters coming in fat and without training properly.

Ehhh I don't want us to be like MMA weight classes. Some people are going to be more than 265 pounds--- no sense forcing people to lose pounds to make 265, when the fact is most heavyweights hovering over 265 can't fight for crap anyways.

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 05:47 But how would you split it, at what weight? If you created a Super CW division and made it a 220lb limit it wouldn't stop those smaller guys putting on weight to compete at the HW division, after all thats where the big bucks are.

This applies to all weight classes though, doesn’t it? It's always been the case, regardless the weight class.

For example: the likes of Shane Mosley, Adrien Broner and Mikey Garcia all jumped two divisions to challenge for welterweight glory, since there wasn’t any money to be made at 140lbs. Michael Spinks, Michael Moorer and Roy Jones Jr. all decided to jump from 175lbs, skipping the cruiserweight division, to challenge for the world heavyweight title. Guillermo Rigondeaux also jumped two weight classes to seek a big payday by facing the much larger Vasiliy Lomachenko.

And let’s not forget that the cruiserweight division was originally created in the late seventies, roughly forty years ago, but you could argue that it took in the region of a decade to fifteen years for it to become established.

So it takes time for any new weight class to gain credibility.

Smaller fighters would at least have the option to compete in the lighter division (for sporting reasons) to participate in a level playing field or they could instead choose to risk their wellbeing to face bigger men for larger purses.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 06:20 This applies to all weight classes though, doesn’t it? It's always been the case, regardless the weight class.

For example: the likes of Shane Mosley, Adrien Broner and Mikey Garcia all jumped two divisions to challenge for welterweight glory, since there wasn’t any money to be made at 140lbs. Michael Spinks, Michael Moorer and Roy Jones Jr. all decided to jump from 175lbs, skipping the cruiserweight division, to challenge for the world heavyweight title. Guillermo Rigondeaux also jumped two weight classes to seek a big payday by facing the much larger Vasiliy Lomachenko.

And let’s not forget that the cruiserweight division was originally created in the late seventies, roughly forty years ago, but you could argue that it took in the region of a decade to fifteen years for it to become established.

So it takes time for any new weight class to gain credibility.

Smaller fighters would at least have the option to compete in the lighter division (for sporting reasons) to participate in a level playing field or to risk their wellbeing to face bigger men for larger purses.

But the weight jump for the smaller guys isn't that much even when jumping up two divisions, most take the easy route too rather than fighting the best guys at the bigger weight. So what weight would you set it at?

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 06:24 But the weight jump for the smaller guys isn't that much even when jumping up two divisions, most take the easy route too rather than fighting the best guys at the bigger weight. So what weight would you set it at?

I honestly don’t know, but I guess something needs to cater for fighters who are at their optimal fighting weight competing from 201lbs to 230lbs.

However, I feel that the sports’ governing bodies should refrain from picking an arbitrary figure, as it should really be determined based on the outcome and advice resulting from extensive scientific research.

The size difference between the 200lb-ers competing at cruiserweight and world-rated heavyweights will continue to grow over time.

And I’m sure that within a decade, a typical heavyweight fighter will be more than 6’5” in height, weighing more than 260lbs (the current figures are 6’ 4½” weighing 254lbs).

If you don’t believe me when I claim heavyweights are growing all the time, let’s not forget that the 6’ 3” Larry Holmes’ average weight at his physical prime, for the first 39 bouts of his career, was 207½lbs. Over the equivalent time period, his opponents typically weighed 211½lbs, which is basically the same as a modern-day cruiserweight title reign (based on rehydrated ring-weights).

In terms of your comment about smaller guys competing in the lighter weight classes having to gain less weight when jumping two weight classes, there’s not really much I can say about that.

Mikey Garcia and Guillermo Rigondeaux were both considered huge underdogs against Errol Spence Jr. and Vasiliy Lomachenko, with one of the main reasons for this was due to their significant size disadvantage.

There’s a reason why weight classes exist, it's because good big fighters usually beat good little fighters.

HW’s usually get paid the most as it’s the blue ribbon division, I doubt the smaller HW’ would want a lower division really.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 06:40 I honestly don’t know, but I guess something needs to cater for fighters who are at their optimal fighting weight competing from 201lbs to 230lbs.

There’s a reason why weight classes exist, it's because good big fighters usually beat good little fighters.

Sure just not sure how it can be addressed without creating a load of extra divisions which wouldn't be good IMO. To be a CW you have to be over 175lbs but I can't think of any CW champs that fought between in the late 170lbs, they all come in close to the CW limit of 200lbs. So in reality between 175-195 is a pretty unused weight range for a world class CW as well.

I suppose there’s nothing stopping HW’s from having some sort of catchweight in the contracts?

But sometimes, a guy weighing 220 has more advantage that his opponent who may be weighing 250 with most of that being fat?

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 07:04 Sure just not sure how it can be addressed without creating a load of extra divisions which wouldn't be good IMO. To be a CW you have to be over 175lbs but I can't think of any CW champs that fought between in the late 170lbs, they all come in close to the CW limit of 200lbs. So in reality between 175-195 is a pretty unused weight range for a world class CW as well.

Is it reasonable to state that nearly all fighters choose to officially weigh close to or at the very limit of their respective weight classes?

For instance, unless there are catchweight clauses, it’s rare to see two welterweights “officially” weighing roughly 143lbs for their contest, as they’re usually both competing against each other around the 146lbs to 147lbs mark.

I’m sure that all fighters chose to compete at the heaviest their respective weight division “officially” allows, with most of them rehydrating in the region of 10lbs to 15lbs immediately afterwards.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 07:16 Is it reasonable to state that nearly all fighters choose to officially weigh close to or at the very limit of their respective weight classes?

For instance, unless there are catchweight clauses, it’s rare to see two welterweights “officially” weighing roughly 143lbs for their contest, as they’re usually both competing against each other around the 146lbs to 147lbs mark.

I’m sure that all fighters chose to compete at the heaviest their respective weight division “officially” allows, with most of them rehydrating in the region of 10lbs to 15lbs immediately afterwards.

Yes just saying that there is a big weight range not being used at CW, you could argue between 175-195 could be a new division in itself. Maybe having a limit to how much a HW could weigh would stop many fighters just coming in fat and untrained.

Controversial wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 07:23 Yes just saying that there is a big weight range not being used at CW, you could argue between 175-195 could be a new division in itself. Maybe having a limit to how much a HW could weigh would stop many fighters just coming in fat and untrained.

The classification of weight classes is not an exact science, since some of the divisions were created based on traditional standard increments or based on what was deemed medically “safe” (as per the lighter classes), but it makes sense to consider other barometers for heavier fighters.

If you plot the population of the United States on a bell curve, the average American male is slightly shorter than 5’ 10” and weighs close to 200lbs, because most non-athletes are fat (or at least carry excess weight).

A fighting weight for a 5’ 10” guy would normally be around 160lbs, which is a middleweight.

Much less of the population is over 220lbs in fighting shape.

So from a larger pool of potential fighters, you’d expect to find more good ones and from a smaller pool, fewer.

This is compounded when you consider the fact that other sports catering for larger athletes are more lucrative in the US than boxing (i.e. baseball, American football & basketball).

There are fewer sports in America whereby 160lbs athletes can earn a decent payday competing against similar sized opposition, hence the reason why the calibre of middleweight fighters is far superior than their heavyweight counterparts.

So in my mind, it's sensible for the classifications between the divisions to be increased in size for the heavier weight classes (i.e. 25lbs between light heavyweight and cruiserweight, in comparison to 7lbs between light middleweight and middleweight), because there has to be enough athletes available to compete against each other.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑17 Jun 2019, 04:35 Ruiz was also substantially shorter, with a much smaller reach than Joshua. That was my point. Dimensions are meaningless, provided you can overcome the initial attack which is what Ruiz did. Besides, he never was a noted puncher prior to this. So your logic weight equates to power is not quite logical.

Weight divisions aren't set up by height and reach but by weight.

I think those who want extra weight divisions are very much in the minority. I'm with gil, I'd like to see us trim a few if anything.

The difficulty is that people are getting bigger in general but boxing also wants to protect its classic weight divisions which I can understand from a legacy perspective.

Another weight division between cruiser and heavy is a big no no from me though. They can raise the cruiser limit a bit more if they like but that's probably getting to its limits now too. There's already a fair spread between light heavy and cruiser.

ewenhay wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 13:07 I think those who want extra weight divisions are very much in the minority. I'm with gil, I'd like to see us trim a few if anything.

The difficulty is that people are getting bigger in general but boxing also wants to protect its classic weight divisions which I can understand from a legacy perspective.

Another weight division between cruiser and heavy is a big no no from me though. They can raise the cruiser limit a bit more if they like but that's probably getting to its limits now too. There's already a fair spread between light heavy and cruiser.

I agree.

ewenhay wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 13:07 I think those who want extra weight divisions are very much in the minority. I'm with gil, I'd like to see us trim a few if anything.

The difficulty is that people are getting bigger in general but boxing also wants to protect its classic weight divisions which I can understand from a legacy perspective.

Another weight division between cruiser and heavy is a big no no from me though. They can raise the cruiser limit a bit more if they like but that's probably getting to its limits now too. There's already a fair spread between light heavy and cruiser.

Light heavy and cruiser spread 25 pounds; but super middle and light heavy only 7 pounds. Is that supposed to make sense?

If you want to keep the same names on weight classes then adjust their parameters fairly and logically, and get rid of all the nonsensical light weight junior and super subdivisions, but there will be a super-heavyweight division, or whatever it will be called, or if they'll just extend cruiser to 225, whatever. It is inevitable and the sooner the better,

Ilya Muromets wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 21:15 [/b]


Light heavy and cruiser spread 25 pounds; but super middle and light heavy only 7 pounds. Is that supposed to make sense?

If you want to keep the same names on weight classes then adjust their parameters fairly and logically, and get rid of all the nonsensical light weight junior and super subdivisions, but there will be a super-heavyweight division, or whatever it will be called, or if they'll just extend cruiser to 225, whatever. It is inevitable and the sooner the better,

Yeah but you're discounting the fighters that actually want to win the heavyweight title and feel they have the tools to win it.

Usyk for example. At the moment he could decide that 215lbs is the best weight for him to compete. You'd possibly be disadvantaging by forcing him to 225lbs.

You're advocating for something I'm not sure the boxers actually want.

ewenhay wrote: ↑18 Jun 2019, 21:52 Yeah but you're discounting the fighters that actually want to win the heavyweight title and feel they have the tools to win it.

Usyk for example. At the moment he could decide that 215lbs is the best weight for him to compete. You'd possibly be disadvantaging by forcing him to 225lbs.

You're advocating for something I'm not sure the boxers actually want.

Good point. But I think Usyk is extraordinary and I think he is capable of beating the much bigger heavyweights. There are extraordinary fighters who could supercede weight classes, but those are the exceptions not the rule. For ordinary fighters it is a big handicap to have to face someone who is much bigger. Do you disagree? If not, why bother to have weight classes at all? What if there was a 225 lb. weight class and then what if those fighters were allowed to fight in the over 225 class if they wished? Then maybe Usyk could hold both the heavyweight and the superheavyweight belts?