BoxRec

Lackeos wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:01

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:00
Oh I'm as objective as they come. If I have a bias, I'll mention it in my post. But Hughie isn't good, and I don't think he'll ever be good. Whatever it is that makes you feel otherwise maybe isn't objective as you say. Did you also ride Gorman before he was ko'd by DDD?

Dubois and Gorman were both two of my prospects. One of them beat the other. They couldn't both win.

Btw, my bias for Hughie is the reality that he's already competed on even terms against a top 10 professional, which is something never accomplished by any of your as-of-yet unspecified prospects. He also fared better against Pulev than Chisora did. Sorry that I'm biased by real life performances that really took place in a boxing ring. I don't know what sub-200-ranked prospects you think are better than Hughie, but they definitely don't have any real world performances that were this good. Who is your unmentioned prospect that's so good? Is it Jay MacFarlane? Willis Meehan? Artem Suslenkov? Marian Dzupka? Jose Medina? Naylor Ball? Kamil Bodzioch? Peter Kadiru? Granit Shala?

Prospects don't have to be better than Hughie is now. They only have to have more potential which many of them have. Hughie is never going to be better than he is now, which isn't much. If his name wasn't Fury, no one would even care. Get over it. Lastly, holding up two losses as Hughie's best performances should really tell you everything you need to know.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:41

Lackeos wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:01
Dubois and Gorman were both two of my prospects. One of them beat the other. They couldn't both win.

Btw, my bias for Hughie is the reality that he's already competed on even terms against a top 10 professional, which is something never accomplished by any of your as-of-yet unspecified prospects. He also fared better against Pulev than Chisora did. Sorry that I'm biased by real life performances that really took place in a boxing ring. I don't know what sub-200-ranked prospects you think are better than Hughie, but they definitely don't have any real world performances that were this good. Who is your unmentioned prospect that's so good? Is it Jay MacFarlane? Willis Meehan? Artem Suslenkov? Marian Dzupka? Jose Medina? Naylor Ball? Kamil Bodzioch? Peter Kadiru? Granit Shala?

Prospects don't have to be better than Hughie is now. They only have to have more potential which many of them have. Hughie is never going to be better than he is now, which isn't much. If his name wasn't Fury, no one would even care. Get over it. Lastly, holding up two losses as Hughie's best performances should really tell you everything you need to know.

The fact that you're not naming names tells me what I need to know. Your position is weaker than mine, which is why you're refusing to make your position known and expose it to criticism. That's how Ben Shapiro debates -- he keeps his position as non-existent as possible so that his ideas can't be criticized when he's in the presence of someone who would disagree with him, and he disavows any positions he's ever previously stated.

Name your prospects. Specifically prospects aged 24 and under who weren't on my list; since that's where this all started. Make sure that they're better than Hughie Fury. Try to avoid supporting them with arguments like "Well, my personal eye test..."

While I'm not sure H. Fury can ever be a champion, what I am sure of is that he'll be a guy like Chris Byrd being a pain in the ass for everyone and occasionally beating them and even when he loses he makes the winner look like dogshit.

That kind of guy--- has an edge over the rest of the prospects currently out there imho because I can't envision anyone out there who has that capability to make everyone look like crap even when they lose.

ya, but then again, that type of guy who often focuses on making guys look bad, but as a result doesnt do enough for himself to win

jamamb wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 22:28 ya, but then again, that type of guy who often focuses on making guys look bad, but as a result doesnt do enough for himself to win

And there you have Hughie Fury! Air Jabber Extraordinaire.

Lackeos wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 22:20

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:41

Prospects don't have to be better than Hughie is now. They only have to have more potential which many of them have. Hughie is never going to be better than he is now, which isn't much. If his name wasn't Fury, no one would even care. Get over it. Lastly, holding up two losses as Hughie's best performances should really tell you everything you need to know.

The fact that you're not naming names tells me what I need to know. Your position is weaker than mine, which is why you're refusing to make your position known and expose it to criticism. That's how Ben Shapiro debates -- he keeps his position as non-existent as possible so that his ideas can't be criticized when he's in the presence of someone who would disagree with him, and he disavows any positions he's ever previously stated.

Name your prospects. Specifically prospects aged 24 and under who weren't on my list; since that's where this all started. Make sure that they're better than Hughie Fury. Try to avoid supporting them with arguments like "Well, my personal eye test..."

Ben Shapiro?! LMFAO! Thanks for the laughs! You take this way too personally!

jamamb wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 22:28 ya, but then again, that type of guy who often focuses on making guys look bad, but as a result doesnt do enough for himself to win

In many ways that's true. I'm reminded of Joe Bugner whenever I see H. Fury fight, in which he could press the issue a bit more but keeps utilizing that safety first style. Those kinds of guys have the conditioning and reflexes necessary to give anyone problems, but seldom pull the rabbit out of the hat when they need to.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 22:44

jamamb wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 22:28 ya, but then again, that type of guy who often focuses on making guys look bad, but as a result doesnt do enough for himself to win

In many ways that's true. I'm reminded of Joe Bugner whenever I see H. Fury fight, in which he could press the issue a bit more but keeps utilizing that safety first style. Those kinds of guys have the conditioning and reflexes necessary to give anyone problems, but seldom pull the rabbit out of the hat when they need to.

Good comparison Henry. Bugner was a much better fighter. He too could never win the big fight, but at least he was more competitive and had some decent performances with Ali and frazier, etc. He had decent size and boxed really well.

At present, yes, Bugner was a better fighter than H. Fury currently is. How far or how good Fury can go remains to be seen. Hard to really predict the future of guys still in their 20s.

I figure, though, with Fury that he'll bounce back and forth between the fringe elite & European level heavyweights--- knock out a few guys like Sam Sexton to raise his profile, then fight a top ten guy and may or may not win.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 23:06 At present, yes, Bugner was a better fighter than H. Fury currently is. How far or how good Fury can go remains to be seen. Hard to really predict the future of guys still in their 20s.

I figure, though, with Fury that he'll bounce back and forth between the fringe elite & European level heavyweights--- knock out a few guys like Sam Sexton to raise his profile, then fight a top ten guy and may or may not win.

I can't argue with any of that. (don't fall down!)

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 23:08

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 23:06 At present, yes, Bugner was a better fighter than H. Fury currently is. How far or how good Fury can go remains to be seen. Hard to really predict the future of guys still in their 20s.

I figure, though, with Fury that he'll bounce back and forth between the fringe elite & European level heavyweights--- knock out a few guys like Sam Sexton to raise his profile, then fight a top ten guy and may or may not win.

I can't argue with any of that. (don't fall down!)

More miracles

Mind you I do like Hughie. He's had a pretty "stop and go" kind of career. Like Dubois he has almost no real personality, but unfortunately for him he's never had a crowd pleasing style.

I thought it was a mistake when he opted out of defending the British title. He at least would have had fights lined up with reasonable names and television time. For me that's better than facing Pulev in his home country, the unknown Canadian and the shell of Sam Peter in the middle of the desert.

I think Dubois can eventually become a legit HW champ in a few years but cannot go as far as to say if he will be good enough to be considered a great. Time will tell...that's why I put "undecided".

I get it that it's fun to throw this kind of question out for discussion but the only rational answer at this stage can be "It's too early to tell".

DDD has a very good jab and he hits hard but it seems to me he exhibits a lot of the same flaws that people criticize about Joshua ... overly muscular, somewhat stiff and robotic, lacks fluidity, head-movement,

I like what I see in Daniel but there is no way I'm making any extravagent claims for him just yet. He did well against Gorman, never let him settle, establish his jab, impose himself. Gorman looked quite poor which might have a lot to do with Dubois' performance.

I don't know whether it's significant but I look at how Kevin Johnson was able to mess Daniel about and survive the full distance, then I contrast that with watching and then listening to a genuinely shocked "Kingpin" who was trying to come to terms with having just been blown away by a young AJ a few years back.

I'm not jumping on any bandwaggons just yet.

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 07:39When I say "the great champion" I mean about Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Klitschko brothers.

I’m going to say no, because those guys were once in a generation sort of talents. It is extremely rare for ay fighter to accomplish the things these guys achieved.

It’s like asking whether someone can win the lottery? Of course, it’s theoretically possible, but the likelihood is so remote that you may as well assume that it isn’t going to happen!

I’m not being funny, but Daniel Dubois beats Nathan Gorman to capture the British title, after achieving nothing notable beforehand (as a pro or in the amateur ranks) and people are discussing his potential to become the current generation’s next “great champion”, much akin to the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jul 2019, 10:45

ValMar wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 07:39When I say "the great champion" I mean about Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Klitschko brothers.

I’m going to say no, because those guys were once in a generation sort of talents. It is extremely rare for ay fighter to accomplish the things these guys achieved.

It’s like asking whether someone can win the lottery? Of course, it’s theoretically possible, but the likelihood is so remote that you may as well assume that it isn’t going to happen!

I’m not being funny, but Daniel Dubois beats Nathan Gorman to capture the British title, after achieving nothing notable beforehand (as a pro or in the amateur ranks) and people are discussing his potential to become the current generation’s next “great champion”, much akin to the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers?

I opened this thread, because I think it is quite natural to predict (or try to predict) boxing future of a promising young fighter.
We do not have a crystal ball, of course, but it is acceptable to discuss about the fighters with a great potential (at least on the boxing forums).
I despise " the generals after a battle", the best example is Joshua's case. The majority of members of this forum had considered him as the second coming of Lennox Lewis. After only one loss, for "the majoirity of mentioned majority" he is an average, big, robotic and stiff HW, and they knew this fact long ago, but of course, they had never written a word about this, before the loss against Ruiz. Hypocrisy ? Yes !

Ilya Muromets wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:10 "Will Daniel Dubois become the next great champion ?"

Oh no will this now supersede all those "Is Joshua the greatest heavyweight of all time?" threads?

He's never even fought anyone in the top 50! Gorman was hyped up to the max for last night's fight.

Where's Kalan when you need him?

He hasn't shown his hand since before the mighty Joshua was splattered.

I wonder what his take would have been on the greatest HW since Too Tall Jones losing to a fat guy who took the fight at short notice?

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:38

Ilya Muromets wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:10 "Will Daniel Dubois become the next great champion ?"

Oh no will this now supersede all those "Is Joshua the greatest heavyweight of all time?" threads?

He's never even fought anyone in the top 50! Gorman was hyped up to the max for last night's fight.

I agree 100%. LMAO!

hahaha me too, i dont see Dubois as a great champion yet

Dubois hopes for a title shot in 2020 (RINGSIDE24, Ukraina).
DDD has the bal.s, obviously................

ValMar wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 12:38 Dubois hopes for a title shot in 2020 (RINGSIDE24, Ukraina).
DDD has the bal.s, obviously................

I thought he was wanting to take his career slow. I've heard 2 different stories about his planned career trajectory now.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 12:42

ValMar wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 12:38 Dubois hopes for a title shot in 2020 (RINGSIDE24, Ukraina).
DDD has the bal.s, obviously................

I thought he was wanting to take his career slow. I've heard 2 different stories about his planned career trajectory now.

You can read this on the mentioned portal (RINGSIDE24, English version). I consider this portal as a reliable source.

morm wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 06:26

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:38
I agree 100%. LMAO!

hahaha me too, i dont see Dubois as a great champion yet

Or even as any kind of World Champion at this point. So far so good though.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 04:47

Ilya Muromets wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 21:10 "Will Daniel Dubois become the next great champion ?"

Oh no will this now supersede all those "Is Joshua the greatest heavyweight of all time?" threads?

He's never even fought anyone in the top 50! Gorman was hyped up to the max for last night's fight.

Where's Kalan when you need him?

He hasn't shown his hand since before the mighty Joshua was splattered.

I wonder what his take would have been on the greatest HW since Too Tall Jones losing to a fat guy who took the fight at short notice?

Well obviously in the world of Kalan it could only mean that Andy Ruiz was in fact the greatest fighter of all time, and he just couldn't see it before.

He's not tall enough.

candyslim wrote: ↑16 Jul 2019, 13:21 He's not tall enough.

Yeah you're right. I guess Wilt Chamberlain has become the default GOAT for Kalan then.

ValMar wrote: ↑15 Jul 2019, 13:54

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Jul 2019, 10:45
I’m going to say no, because those guys were once in a generation sort of talents. It is extremely rare for ay fighter to accomplish the things these guys achieved.

It’s like asking whether someone can win the lottery? Of course, it’s theoretically possible, but the likelihood is so remote that you may as well assume that it isn’t going to happen!

I’m not being funny, but Daniel Dubois beats Nathan Gorman to capture the British title, after achieving nothing notable beforehand (as a pro or in the amateur ranks) and people are discussing his potential to become the current generation’s next “great champion”, much akin to the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers?

I opened this thread, because I think it is quite natural to predict (or try to predict) boxing future of a promising young fighter.
We do not have a crystal ball, of course, but it is acceptable to discuss about the fighters with a great potential (at least on the boxing forums).
I despise " the generals after a battle", the best example is Joshua's case. The majority of members of this forum had considered him as the second coming of Lennox Lewis. After only one loss, for "the majoirity of mentioned majority" he is an average, big, robotic and stiff HW, and they knew this fact long ago, but of course, they had never written a word about this, before the loss against Ruiz. Hypocrisy ? Yes !

In regard to being highly-excited about Daniel Dubois’ potential, I support you on this. He’s so young and has plenty of time on his side to master his trade.

I just think it’s just a tad premature to compare him to legends, such as Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers, since he’s already behind them in the proverbial learning curve at the equivalent age or stage of their careers.

To be fair, I only like to consider a fighters’ potential of being inducted in the Hall-of-Fame until they’re in the final few bouts of their career or have only recently retired.

I get your point about some people quickly jumping ship and changing their minds about a fighter as soon as they suffer an unexpected loss