Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 16:55
That's your CRITERIA!
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The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
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Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:28
You can only fight the guys in your own era. The fact is we don't know how Leonard's contemporaries compare with those of other eras because they never fought.gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 05:04I do. He has 3 bigger wins than either of them ever managed except for arguably Mayweather's win over Pac.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑02 Dec 2019, 20:27
I really don't see the case for Leonard being ahead of Pacquiao and Mayweather.
Pacquiaos accomplishments in his own era are not subjective whereas cross era comparisons are highly subjective
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:30
Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 11:45 Mayweather was way past and Pacquiao was way, way past it when they fought. The fight was irrelevant. They should have fought each much sooner. The winner would have had their biggest win of their career.
Somehow Cojimar criticizes Hearns for not fight McCallum. Leonard is getting criticized for not beating more light heavyweights. But he ignores this.
I would go farther than three with Leonard. Benitez was a bigger win than anything Mayweather or Pacquiao had.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:40
Just for the level of stardom, and recognizablility they were bringing to the table it meant more to have beaten Hearns, Hagler and Duran than it meant to have beaten anyone that May or Pac beat other than maybe De La Hoya for both, and Pac for Mayweather.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:28You can only fight the guys in your own era. The fact is we don't know how Leonard's contemporaries compare with those of other eras because they never fought.
Pacquiaos accomplishments in his own era are not subjective whereas cross era comparisons are highly subjective
Pac of course has tremendous victories over Marco Antonio Barrera and Erik Morales, and several big names, but it doesn't compare to beating a Prime Thomas Hearns or an All Time Great Middleweight Champion in Hagler or an All Time great P4P Legend in Duran.
They've fought a lot more, and stayed at the Elite level for a longer period of time, but neither May nor Pac has scalps as big as Leonard's. That's all I'm saying. Whether you think they rank ahead of him on a P4P scale for other various reasons, that's a different argue, but I don't think it can be argued that Leonard's 3 wins I mentioned are the single biggest wins any of the 3 fighters in question.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 19:42
I don't know if it would've been actually. Hagler certainly became a bigger star between '81 and '87. Now while he wasn't as formidable in-ring by that time, it certainly didn't appear that way to anybody watching his fights,. and Leonard after all was coming out of a long retirement to fight Hagler a dominant Champion...so yeah it was pretty goddamn meaningful.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 11:45 Mayweather was way past and Pacquiao was way, way past it when they fought. The fight was irrelevant. They should have fought each much sooner. The winner would have had their biggest win of their career.
Somehow Cojimar criticizes Hearns for not fight McCallum. Leonard is getting criticized for not beating more light heavyweights. But he ignores this.
I would go farther than three with Leonard. Benitez was a bigger win than anything Mayweather or Pacquiao had.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 06 Dec 2019, 20:11
Huge, but it would have been even bigger before the layoff. Boxing was huge in the 80's, everyone knew hagler. All of his fights were on.gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:42I don't know if it would've been actually. Hagler certainly became a bigger star between '81 and '87. Now while he wasn't as formidable in-ring by that time, it certainly didn't appear that way to anybody watching his fights,. and Leonard after all was coming out of a long retirement to fight Hagler a dominant Champion...so yeah it was pretty goddamn meaningful.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30
Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 14:17
1982 probably more reasonable. And Ray would have lost in that time period.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 11:45 Mayweather was way past and Pacquiao was way, way past it when they fought. The fight was irrelevant. They should have fought each much sooner. The winner would have had their biggest win of their career.
Somehow Cojimar criticizes Hearns for not fight McCallum. Leonard is getting criticized for not beating more light heavyweights. But he ignores this.
I would go farther than three with Leonard. Benitez was a bigger win than anything Mayweather or Pacquiao had.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 17:34
In 1981? really? Come on. Nobody was talking about that at the time. Had he fought Hagler, you would have accused him of ducking Hearns. Pac and Mayweather had years and years to fight when it would have mattered, yet you are silent about that........Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 11:45 Mayweather was way past and Pacquiao was way, way past it when they fought. The fight was irrelevant. They should have fought each much sooner. The winner would have had their biggest win of their career.
Somehow Cojimar criticizes Hearns for not fight McCallum. Leonard is getting criticized for not beating more light heavyweights. But he ignores this.
I would go farther than three with Leonard. Benitez was a bigger win than anything Mayweather or Pacquiao had.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 07 Dec 2019, 17:35
Amen.gilgamesh wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:42I don't know if it would've been actually. Hagler certainly became a bigger star between '81 and '87. Now while he wasn't as formidable in-ring by that time, it certainly didn't appear that way to anybody watching his fights,. and Leonard after all was coming out of a long retirement to fight Hagler a dominant Champion...so yeah it was pretty goddamn meaningful.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30
Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 12:40
Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao were generally ranked the number 1 and number 2 fighters in the divisions going into the fight. It's hard to see how the two best fighters in the division facing each other is not meaningful. Less meaningful than if they fought earlier but still important sort of like Leonard-Hagler or Lewis-Holyfield.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑07 Dec 2019, 17:34In 1981? really? Come on. Nobody was talking about that at the time. Had he fought Hagler, you would have accused him of ducking Hearns. Pac and Mayweather had years and years to fight when it would have mattered, yet you are silent about that........Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2019, 19:30
Hagler and Leonard should have fought sooner. The fight would have been a lot more meaningful in 1981 but nice try.
Also, what's to stop Leonard from fighting Hagler and Hearns?
In 1991 James Toney fought Michael Nunn, Reggie Johnson, and Mike McCallum
In 1944 Lloyd Marshall fought Jake LaMotta, Jack Chase, and Joey Maxim
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 17:11
After 11 days all you can come up with is this garbage?
In less than a two-year period of time, Leonard fought Benitez, Duran twice, and Hearns. That's a helluva lot more impressive than what LaMotta and Chase did. Reggie Johnson, Jack Chase? Seriously?
And you are ripping Leonard because it a very short window of time, he didn't fight Marvin Hagler? How idiotic.
You are go all over people like Leonard and Hearns who went out of their way to fight top competition. Yet you give Pacquiao and Mayweather a free pass.
Pacquiao and Mayweather were the #1 and #2 fighters when they fought in 2015? What are you smoking?
Doubtful even the biggest "Floyd" fan had him that high by then.
Pacquiao? Come on. He way past it by then. No way he was one of the top 10 fighters in the world by then. He had not stopped a guy in 6 years. He had lost to Tim Bradley. He was slow.
How about a fight in 2009?
How about 2010?
How about 2011?
How about 2012?
The fight would have meant something then. This isn't nearly as short of a period of time as Leonard had. Yet you continue to ignore this.
For what ever reason, you have this bias against certain fighters. It's ridiculous.
In less than a two-year period of time, Leonard fought Benitez, Duran twice, and Hearns. That's a helluva lot more impressive than what LaMotta and Chase did. Reggie Johnson, Jack Chase? Seriously?
And you are ripping Leonard because it a very short window of time, he didn't fight Marvin Hagler? How idiotic.
You are go all over people like Leonard and Hearns who went out of their way to fight top competition. Yet you give Pacquiao and Mayweather a free pass.
Pacquiao and Mayweather were the #1 and #2 fighters when they fought in 2015? What are you smoking?
Doubtful even the biggest "Floyd" fan had him that high by then.
Pacquiao? Come on. He way past it by then. No way he was one of the top 10 fighters in the world by then. He had not stopped a guy in 6 years. He had lost to Tim Bradley. He was slow.
How about a fight in 2009?
How about 2010?
How about 2011?
How about 2012?
The fight would have meant something then. This isn't nearly as short of a period of time as Leonard had. Yet you continue to ignore this.
For what ever reason, you have this bias against certain fighters. It's ridiculous.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 18 Dec 2019, 19:51
Mayweather and Pacquiao were generally rated the number 1 and 2 fighters in the welterweight division. Lb for lb who knows where they were rated? That's subjective anyway.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 17:11 After 11 days all you can come up with is this garbage?
In less than a two-year period of time, Leonard fought Benitez, Duran twice, and Hearns. That's a helluva lot more impressive than what LaMotta and Chase did. Reggie Johnson, Jack Chase? Seriously?
And you are ripping Leonard because it a very short window of time, he didn't fight Marvin Hagler? How idiotic.
You are go all over people like Leonard and Hearns who went out of their way to fight top competition. Yet you give Pacquiao and Mayweather a free pass.
Pacquiao and Mayweather were the #1 and #2 fighters when they fought in 2015? What are you smoking?
Doubtful even the biggest "Floyd" fan had him that high by then.
Pacquiao? Come on. He way past it by then. No way he was one of the top 10 fighters in the world by then. He had not stopped a guy in 6 years. He had lost to Tim Bradley. He was slow.
How about a fight in 2009?
How about 2010?
How about 2011?
How about 2012?
The fight would have meant something then. This isn't nearly as short of a period of time as Leonard had. Yet you continue to ignore this.
For what ever reason, you have this bias against certain fighters. It's ridiculous.
Leonard's win over Hagler is certainly significant but they certainly could have fought earlier if they were inclined to do so.
If not in 1981 then in 1982 or 1984/85.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 07:36
Marvelous vs Sugar Ray in '82 would have been just perfect. Two fighters at their peak of their powers. 
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 11:34
The reason is clear, he's a troll.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 17:11
For what ever reason, you have this bias against certain fighters. It's ridiculous.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 11:46
What was a better fight? Mayweather-Pacquiao or Leonard-Hagler. Boy that's a tough one.
You are right. He is just a troll. One hypocritical statement after another.
You are right. He is just a troll. One hypocritical statement after another.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 11:58
I stopped paying attention after his 50's Heavyweights were comparable to the 70's onslaught. You know I have no love lost for Leonard, but this and Elmo saying he wasn't faster or more skilled than McCallum are beyond outlandish.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 11:46 What was a better fight? Mayweather-Pacquiao or Leonard-Hagler. Boy that's a tough one.
You are right. He is just a troll. One hypocritical statement after another.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 12:17
Mayweather accomplishing more in his era than Leonard did in his is just objective fact.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 11:58I stopped paying attention after his 50's Heavyweights were comparable to the 70's onslaught. You know I have no love lost for Leonard, but this and Elmo saying he wasn't faster or more skilled than McCallum are beyond outlandish.Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 11:46 What was a better fight? Mayweather-Pacquiao or Leonard-Hagler. Boy that's a tough one.
You are right. He is just a troll. One hypocritical statement after another.
You can argue Leonard's era was better but that's a totally separate issue.
As far as trolling goes, you and I are from different generations, so why is it surprising I don't revere the fighters of your childhood? You aren't exactly enamored with fighters of other eras like Jose Napoles, Kid Gavilan, Terence Crawford, etc yourself.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 14:28
I usually don't bother responding but that's too funny. I love all 3 of the fighters you mentioned. My all time top 5 consists of fighters that had a combined zero fights in my lifetime. 
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 14:34
So why do you seem to find it so surprising that I take issue with Hearns for not fighting guys like McCallum and Nunn? Did the guys in your all time top 5 duck the competition available in their own eras?Onetimeonly wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 14:28 I usually don't bother responding but that's too funny. I love all 3 of the fighters you mentioned. My all time top 5 consists of fighters that had a combined zero fights in my lifetime.
You seem totally unobjective when it comes to fighters born in the 1950s and 1960s.
I don't see how you can reasonably argue Leonard's accomplishments in his own era match Mayweather's.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 14:56
Move on, kid, I'm impervious to your trolling. 
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 15:10
Mayweather beating more ranked contenders than Leonard, having better longevity, having more success weight climbing, being more consistent are just cold, hard facts.
I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but that's just how it is
I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but that's just how it is
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 19 Dec 2019, 15:41
Very true.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 15:10 Mayweather beating more ranked contenders than Leonard, having better longevity, having more success weight climbing, being more consistent are just cold, hard facts.
I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but that's just how it is
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 20 Dec 2019, 16:55
Cold, irrelevant facts.Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 15:10 Mayweather beating more ranked contenders than Leonard, having better longevity, having more success weight climbing, being more consistent are just cold, hard facts.
I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but that's just how it is
More ranked contenders? Well there you go again, assuming that a 10th ranked contender is the same as a #1 contender, and that a #1 contender in one era is always the equal to the #1 in another.
Better longevity? So frikkin what. Scores of fighters have fought longer than Mayweather. Means next to nothing.
How something relevant?
Like the best fighter that Leonard beat was the better than the best that Mayweather beat.
That the 2nd best was better than the best that Mayweather beat.
That the third best fighter that Leonard beat was better than the best Mayweather beat.
That the fourth best fighter that Leonard beat was better than the best Mayweather beat.
(I know you are desperate, but please don't bring up Pacquiao. He was way past it by the time they had their awful fight. Maybe we can hear about legends like Diego Corrales or Zab Judah)
I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but that's just how it is
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 20 Dec 2019, 18:04
PAC definitely wasn't way past it, he still isn't. However, he was never better than hearns, Duran or hagler. I'd rate Manny over benitez. You're spot on in the grand scheme but continuously saying that is almost as bad as some of this other crap. PAC is still very good.
Re: The Great Sugar Ray Leonard Top 5 All-time Greatest Fighters Ever
Posted: 23 Dec 2019, 11:50
He was 36 years old. He had been in a lot of tough fights and had a lot of mileage on him. He had not stopped anyone in 5 years. If you watch his fights from say 2008-2011, you see a huge difference. He was much slower and easier to hit.
When I say "way past it" I mean way past his best. Not just anyone could beat him. However, this clearly was not the same guy who was once the best fighter in the world.
Mayweather was past it as well. He old and not as fast. Has this fight happened several years later it may have been a great fight. As it was, it was pretty much a joke. As fans we got cheated.
When I say "way past it" I mean way past his best. Not just anyone could beat him. However, this clearly was not the same guy who was once the best fighter in the world.
Mayweather was past it as well. He old and not as fast. Has this fight happened several years later it may have been a great fight. As it was, it was pretty much a joke. As fans we got cheated.