BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:12 Go down to Mexico and tell 'em they're all White people and that Latino or Hispanic is not a race, and let me know how that goes for ya

Right? Mexicans are European now? Well they speak Spanish so there you have it

oogiebe wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 19:26

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 16:14 I'm told it's because black yanks like the basketball and the football more these days

That is a fact. Boxing used to be more lucrative, but Basketball and Football salaries and endorsement deals have skyrocketed.

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

I wish White men would stop apologizing every time they utter a comment that does not put Blacks in a glowing light. It's not racist to recognize patterns of behaviour or to speak the truth about a collective people. It is not racist for a European man to root for his European brothers over African fighters. It is the current year, we are a tribal species. Whites have been the least tribal of all over the last few decades. How has that worked out White man? You can love your people and your heritage without hating others.

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

oogiebe wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 19:26

That is a fact. Boxing used to be more lucrative, but Basketball and Football salaries and endorsement deals have skyrocketed.

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

Stop being silly. We're talking about the elite athletes here. And way more than 50 per year enter the NFL/NBA/MLB. Not sure why you'd even care to argue against this. It's true.

EDIT: And it's not just blacks.

If you increase the size of the talent pool, you're more likely to snag a great talent but you're also likely to have more average talents by default. Combat sports are weird, almost like a place for misfits. You can be genetically gifted like your all-time great pops, but fighting with you just doesn't click. Or you could have a twin who's great and you're good too but you quit cos fighting just isn't for you. Just more of an x factor here than other sports - just isn't a linear conclusion other than the fact there's less gyms and less people into it.

Blodhemn wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:54 If you increase the size of the talent pool, you're more likely to snag a great talent but you're also likely to have more average talents by default. Combat sports are weird, almost like a place for misfits. You can be genetically gifted like your all-time great pops, but fighting with you just doesn't click. Or you could have a twin who's great and you're good too but you quit cos fighting just isn't for you. Just more of an x factor here than other sports - just isn't a linear conclusion other than the fact there's less gyms and less people into it.

Clearly most of them wouldn't make it past several fights but again or maybe even the AMS, we're talking elite athletes opting for other sports. There are thousands of pro hw's. Only 10 are top fighters and only three are elite, or two if you write off Wilder which I haven't as of yet. There are other factors as well, such as the rise of eastern european fighters in the pro ranks.

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:19 I wish White men would stop apologizing every time they utter a comment that does not put Blacks in a glowing light. It's not racist to recognize patterns of behaviour or to speak the truth about a collective people. It is not racist for a European man to root for his European brothers over African fighters. It is the current year, we are a tribal species. Whites have been the least tribal of all over the last few decades. How has that worked out White man? You can love your people and your heritage without hating others.

I'm white, but I don't have a people; other than myself, a few family members, and people I like.

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

oogiebe wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 19:26

That is a fact. Boxing used to be more lucrative, but Basketball and Football salaries and endorsement deals have skyrocketed.

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

- Virulent race discussions might be better served on the political board since any notion of race has to be filtered through our political magistrates who run the show.

1 Most scientists are on record as saying there is no scientific basis for race.

2 Most scientists are not anthropologists, archaeologists, or physiologists, nor were "most" scientists ever interviewed. This just media spin coming out of prominent scientific conventions.

Much of the dubious "Great White Hope" credit seems to have started with Jack London and the prevailing white supremacist press of the day who gleefully hyped Jeffries/Johnson ring encounter as a morality battle of the races. The result led to widespread rioting, deaths, and a ban on fight films to prevent more violence.

London was the bastard son of the western US frontier born in the era of John L Sullivan, and raised in a hard scrabble, self educated, itinerant fashion to become a prolific author of books and magazine articles. He famously issued the clarion call that ultimately roused Jeffries from his alfalfa farm to “wipe the golden smile from Jack Johnson’s face.” There was nothing race related in that comment, but the copycat press had a field day with it that eventually morphed into The Great White Hope. After Willard regained the title, it pretty much disappeared until the 60s.



London was part of the prevailing progressive “socialist labor” movement of the day, and was not shy about examining racial profiles in print, having previously alerted the public to the 1904 menace of “the yellow peril,” a theme that later became the subject of an ambitious science fiction piece he wrote in 1910 called The Unparalleled Invasion, taking place in the futuristic 1975.

However, the usual crusted suspects burst out of the closet during 1967 debut of Howard Sackler’s broadway hit, The Great White Hope, the defacto biography of Jack Johnson by way of the larger lazy media that coincided with the civil rights movement and violent anarchic elements that generated. Whereas before it was a useful term to describe a promising big heavy, now it became a slur. Worse, Don King disgracefully marketed it to generate such hate for Holmes and Cooney that FBI snipers were deployed on roofs in case of serious trouble for that fight. That was about the last time the slur has been relevant to my recollection.

Now, as to race, obviously there is much difference between the stock Asian, African, and European races of the 18th century as well as within each confine. Whether that is race or not is irrelevant to the people who most certainly do see those differences. Early on I adapted MLK philosophy of judging folks based on the content of their character rather than race and it's worked like a charm thus far, but I certainly don't like people telling me what race I am and ain't gonna tell a Mexican or anyone what race they are. Nobody can speak for all Mexicans or all of any race, ie Ali differing with MLK and so on. We have differences that need not be virulent, yet employment, census, and other forms people have to fill out want to know race and sex and sometimes marital status. If given a choice, I pick "other" because I understand where my origins are even if I can't prove it by family record going back before recorded time.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

Nothing or everything? Probably more in the middle. Loads of money to be made in boxing still, just a harder and or more obscure road to travel.

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 02:55

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

Nothing or everything? Probably more in the middle. Loads of money to be made in boxing still, just a harder and or more obscure road to travel.

Loads of money in boxing??? Compare to badminton - YES!
Let’s check with basketball.
How many HW boxers make 100,000+/year? ~100, being generous....
In NBA 450 guys make millions, and thousands of players making 100+ in Europe, China etc...
Tens of thousands of basketball players benefits hugely without become professionals at all - NCAA!

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

In mid 20th century boxing was part of NCAA program....that’s the main part of the story.

bigman1968 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 04:02

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

In mid 20th century boxing was part of NCAA program....that’s the main part of the story.

If there was no American football and no American basketball, or they were very minor sports, there would be tons more American HWs in boxing. Anyone who doesn't know that is simply ignorant on the subject.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 10:33

bigman1968 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 04:02

In mid 20th century boxing was part of NCAA program....that’s the main part of the story.

If there was no American football and no American basketball, or they were very minor sports, there would be tons more American HWs in boxing. Anyone who doesn't know that is simply ignorant on the subject.

Point made (over and over again). NOt sure why this is such a big deal to some.

bigman1968 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 03:58

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 02:55

Nothing or everything? Probably more in the middle. Loads of money to be made in boxing still, just a harder and or more obscure road to travel.

Loads of money in boxing??? Compare to badminton - YES!
Let’s check with basketball.
How many HW boxers make 100,000+/year? ~100, being generous....
In NBA 450 guys make millions, and thousands of players making 100+ in Europe, China etc...
Tens of thousands of basketball players benefits hugely without become professionals at all - NCAA!

Bigman got the Beat!

oogiebe wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 10:34

Tony1244 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 10:33

If there was no American football and no American basketball, or they were very minor sports, there would be tons more American HWs in boxing. Anyone who doesn't know that is simply ignorant on the subject.

Point made (over and over again). NOt sure why this is such a big deal to some.

I have a hunch.

What would that be? You guys getting your panties in a bunch? Keep your bullshit to yourself.

bigman1968 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 03:58

Blodhemn wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 02:55

Nothing or everything? Probably more in the middle. Loads of money to be made in boxing still, just a harder and or more obscure road to travel.

Loads of money in boxing??? Compare to badminton - YES!
Let’s check with basketball.
How many HW boxers make 100,000+/year? ~100, being generous....
In NBA 450 guys make millions, and thousands of players making 100+ in Europe, China etc...
Tens of thousands of basketball players benefits hugely without become professionals at all - NCAA!

That's ridiculous. If you have any talent you get the right promoter and have it made.

bigman1968 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 04:02

In mid 20th century boxing was part of NCAA program....that’s the main part of the story.

Finally, an accurate point.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:05

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:19 I wish White men would stop apologizing every time they utter a comment that does not put Blacks in a glowing light. It's not racist to recognize patterns of behaviour or to speak the truth about a collective people. It is not racist for a European man to root for his European brothers over African fighters. It is the current year, we are a tribal species. Whites have been the least tribal of all over the last few decades. How has that worked out White man? You can love your people and your heritage without hating others.

I'm white, but I don't have a people; other than myself, a few family members, and people I like.

paddy chavez wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 18:05 I think black Americans are just softer than eastern European fighters now , some of those Russians have had a tough life

I dunno about that. What if Eastern Europeans were allowed to go pro in the 1970's? How might the history of heavyweight boxing change?

oh, wait, hang on, people have attempted to answer this idiotic, non-sensical and needlessly inflammatory post.

yawn

oogiebe wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:42

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

Stop being silly. We're talking about the elite athletes here. And way more than 50 per year enter the NFL/NBA/MLB. Not sure why you'd even care to argue against this. It's true.

EDIT: And it's not just blacks.

You just said I am silly & you are not sure why I would even care to argue against this. Yet you never argue for it. You understand why this is? If you thought I was wrong, wouldn't it make sense to prove it?

So, I will respectfully prove you wrong. The numbers I am about to give you are genuine, so there is no way for you to counter the argument I have laid out & will now qualify. First, re-read my statement. I said maybe 50 enter the NFL or NBA to become starters or even second team each year. And apparently I greatly overstated those statistics. There are 250 players drafted by NFL every year & 60 drafted by NBA every year. That is 310 men who have an opportunity to make a professional NFL or NBA team/year. 15-20% of those players would be lucky to become 1st or even 2nd team players. That is truthful strictly from a quantitative viewpoint. You brought up MLB, which is your straw man argument, I never mentioned it, but you can have it regardless. There is certainly no more than 50-100 African Americans in the entire Major Leagues, nevermind new ones coming in on a yearly basis & becoming starters. I am only speaking about Black Americans, that is the topic, the decline of Black heavyweight champions & the reason behind it. I am addressing the false argument that Blacks choose to go into NBA or NFL in lieu of a professional boxing career. There is no evidence of this, zero. In fact, the statistics prove it cannot be true. The fall of the Soviet Bloc in conjunction with an ineffective amateur system (USA Boxing) has squeezed all Americans out of boxing royalty, Black Americans included. I hope you will acknowledge that the numbers add up & cede this argument. Thanks fam!

ValMar wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 13:54

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:05

I'm white, but I don't have a people; other than myself, a few family members, and people I like.

Yes, I think that was my point. We prefer people we identify with, & that starts with ourselves, our family, friends, community etc. You may say that you have no people but you are most likely an American & you have been bombarded with propaganda from birth telling you that you have no people, that White people have no culture. But tell that to a Black American or a British Muslim or an Irish gypsy or a Jew. That would be very insulting thing to say.

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 19:15

This has nothing to do with it. You know how few Blacks enter the NFL & NBA every year to become starters or even second team back ups? Maybe 50, a year. 99.999999% chance that none of them had the talent to be heavyweight champion but decided on Football or basketball instead

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

No, it has nothing to do with it, honestly. I laid it out a few posts up. The numbers simply do not bare it out. I am not even touching a qualitative aspect of this argument. I am simply saying that the number of Black athletes who are drafted to get an opportunity to become professional NFL or NBA players each year is roughly 200 or so. That is just an opportunity, not a guarantee of becoming professional. Becoming a professional is no guarantee of playing, playing is no guarantee of starting, starting is no guarantee of becoming a star. No talented amateur HW boxer is giving up a shot at the most prestigious title on Earth just to be a second team Defensive End in NFL. This argument makes no sense, particularly when contrasted with arguments that seem to make perfect sense. Nobody has even attempted to "prove" this argument. It's somehow become a mantra that gets repeated but never expanded on.

sturm vogel wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 23:22 There is no "human race" . There are human beings of difference races. A race is a gene cluster found in specific areas. No controversy here. No bullshit either.

No controversy???? Are you kidding, mate? There are grown men on this site who will tell you that we choose our own gender & there are more than two to choose from. If you notice a pattern & acknowledge, there are grown ass men on this site that will call you racist. The most controversial thing on Earth is the truth and uncomfortable truths make untruthful men very uncomfortable.

thomasjkelley wrote: ↑06 Mar 2020, 04:43

Tony1244 wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 20:11

This has everything to do with it. A brief history of 20th century American sports is in order here.

In the mid 20th century, football and basketball salaries were substantially lower. Perhaps 99% lower. At the same time boxing gyms blanketed American cities. The Foremans of today would be drawn to football. Wilder was drawn to basketball, Deontay only took up boxing because of a fluke illness of his daughter's.

No, it has nothing to do with it, honestly. I laid it out a few posts up. The numbers simply do not bare it out. I am not even touching a qualitative aspect of this argument. I am simply saying that the number of Black athletes who are drafted to get an opportunity to become professional NFL or NBA players each year is roughly 200 or so. That is just an opportunity, not a guarantee of becoming professional. Becoming a professional is no guarantee of playing, playing is no guarantee of starting, starting is no guarantee of becoming a star. No talented amateur HW boxer is giving up a shot at the most prestigious title on Earth just to be a second team Defensive End in NFL. This argument makes no sense, particularly when contrasted with arguments that seem to make perfect sense. Nobody has even attempted to "prove" this argument. It's somehow become a mantra that gets repeated but never expanded on.

200 isn't a huge number. 4 or 5 are even a smaller number. The elite Heavyweights of the 1970s were just 4 or 5 guys. Ali, Foreman, Norton, and Holmes. Maybe Jimmy Young for 2 years.

When those guys grew up there were more than 10 times the # of boxing gyms. If those guys were born 30 years later they would NOT have been drawn into boxing. Ali may have been a stand up comedian. Norton was an excellent pitcher and the baseball salaries of today would have drawn him towards baseball. Foreman would have been drawn to the NFL. They may not have made it big in those sports but that's a whole other ballgame, pun intended,