Calzaghe vs Echols?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Jan 2005, 09:49

MightyWarrior wrote:And Calzaghe had Mitchell's number that night - no way was the American coming back from that.
Blue is just jealous, as they don't have any decent supermiddles in America.

Lacy's hard fought win over Sheika puts things into perspective, his punchpower seems a little overrated considering how easily Calzaghe put him to sleep.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Jan 2005, 10:05

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:And Calzaghe had Mitchell's number that night - no way was the American coming back from that.
Blue is just jealous, as they don't have any decent supermiddles in America.
Lacy's hard fought win over Sheika puts things into perspective, his punchpower seems a little overrated considering how easily Calzaghe put him to sleep.

Sheika was stopped on cuts, but I do know what you mean - was dissapointed with Lacy that night.

I didn't say Mitchell was less hurt than Calzaghe, he clearly was more hurt. But given that he was still throwing, could hurt Calzaghe and was for the title - I thought it was early. Mitchell might have been "gone" but still had enough about him to protest.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Jan 2005, 10:36

Easy to say when you aren't the ref. It's not like he just wobbled and was stopped, he'd been down, got up, and was hurt again. It's situations like that, where a fighter's punch resistance is gone that they get badly hurt, his legs were limp and he wasn't in control of his limbs.

I prefer to see a guy get stopped slightly too early than slightly too late.

In their first fight (I think it was) I think Gatti should probably have been stopped in that ninth round, he took a hell of a lot of punishment, probably took some long term damage there.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 06 Jan 2005, 10:39

January 06, 2005 - Reliable sources from England have informed Boxingtalk that allegedly has decided to push Joe Calzaghe's scheduled Feb. 11 date back to March or April. Earlier in the week Boxingtalk reported that Warren has offered Antwun Echols $100,000 to take the fight, and sources close to Echols inform us that will probably not be enough to get the fight done. We will cotinue to keep you updated so stay tuned. Until then, Remember Where You Heard It First! (12:35 AM ET)

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 06 Jan 2005, 10:52

Christ, I hope that isn't true, Calzaghe needs to stay busy.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 06 Jan 2005, 10:56

what a f***ing surprise.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 06 Jan 2005, 12:31

Until thats confirmed elsewhere take it with a pinch of salt. It may be true but that story is from bullshit.net (boxingtalk.net) which is the most unreliable site on the internet for these rumours....

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 06 Jan 2005, 12:37

Spreadking wrote:Echols chased Mundine around, and couldn't land a solid punch all night.Mundine busted Echols face up with his counters, but never wobbled him.

Echols fought totally the wrong fight that night and his handlers admitted as much afterwards, Echols saw Mundine as a weak chinned easy KO after the Ottke stoppage and being dropped by Nishizawa and he went straight in all night trying to bomb him out. When it didn't work he had no plan B and Mundine (who is for all his faults a very competent Boxer) just Boxed his head off.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 06 Jan 2005, 15:00

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Easy to say when you aren't the ref. It's not like he just wobbled and was stopped, he'd been down, got up, and was hurt again. It's situations like that, where a fighter's punch resistance is gone that they get badly hurt, his legs were limp and he wasn't in control of his limbs.

I prefer to see a guy get stopped slightly too early than slightly too late.

In their first fight (I think it was) I think Gatti should probably have been stopped in that ninth round, he took a hell of a lot of punishment, probably took some long term damage there.

Possibly, there have definately been cases of fights that should have been stopped. Round 3 of the Second Ward vs Gatti encounter was another one that could have easily been stopped. However, I would say there was a better case for then being stopped than Mitchell. Yes, Mitchell was hurt no doubt but I would like to know how many seconds from Calzaghe being floored to fight being stopped. It was one of Calzaghe's wild "throw and hope" shots that caught Mitchell, Byron was doing the same thing and if it would have landed flush, Calzaghe might have been back in trouble.

Calzaghe landed one shot to wobble Mitchell but Mitchell landed with punch before that. Had Mitchell taken a knee the fight would have continued.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » 07 Jan 2005, 06:27

It was a world TITLE fight being televised internationally
Mitchell was top rated, even though he previously lost his WBA title by a split decision to Ottke;
He also had never been stopped in 28 fights & was in excellent physical condition which allows a boxer to recover from a knockdown blow.

(Didn’t anybody see the 1st rd of Pacquiao-Marquez?)

So from an international perspective, that victory WAS tainted.
But let’s not stray away from my point that Calzaghe’s only faced two of the top 15 Supermiddles and hardly merits the comment…

“Stands above them all”.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jan 2005, 07:18

I'm no Calzaghe apologist

Yes, mate, I was ringside for Marquez Pacquaio, (marquez should have won it), but that was a slightly different situation.

When Marquez went down the 1st two times, he was fine when he got up, and wisely never stopped firing back. When asked after the fight why he didn't try and cover up or take evasive action, he replied

Only when he went down the third time did he look badly hurt, the first two times were flash knockdowns, and he recovered pretty quickly, and was holding his own.

Mitchell was hit, dropped, hurt, and was wobbly when he got up, he then got hurt again, lurched backward into the ropes, and was getting drilled at the time of the stoppage. I honestly believe that had it continued he would have got savaged on the ropes and been stopped 20 seconds later after a battering. Calzaghe may have his flaws, but when he has someone hurt, he invariably pours it on.

It was also a different referee, and different referees have different criteria, they are after all human beings. Wasn't it Dave Pariss for the Calzaghe v Mitchell fight? I know that Pariss often stops fights pretty early on.

chris s · Post by **chris s** » 07 Jan 2005, 14:04

Calzaghe is off the 11/2 bill, show still going on with manc fighters in good fights, they were trying to make alexander v moore

lirva33 · Post by **lirva33** » 07 Jan 2005, 14:47

Calzaghe does not "stand above them all" by any means.

He is not even the best Super middle in Britain.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jan 2005, 15:57

So who is then? I'm not saying he 'Stands above them all' but I don't think there are any supermiddleweights in britain who could beat him. Froch certainly isn't ready yet.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » 07 Jan 2005, 18:38

He’s obviously talking about Calzaghe’s other tainted win- Reid,
who wasn’t afraid to face the prospect Magee or travel to face Ottke and face the best.

BTW,
If Paris often stops fights pretty early on,
one look at Joe’s face as he got up should have stopped the fight right then & there.

If the roles were reversed and Calzaghe scored the 1st knock down and then was knocked down;

What do U think the crowd would have done to Paris if he stopped the fight??

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 07 Jan 2005, 19:34

Reid went to face Ottke cause he needed the title, got jobbed too, should have come away the winner, and probably would have knocked Ottke out if the ref had actually let him hit him.

I don't give a shit what the crowd thinks, that's not the issue. the issue is, Calzaghe was perfectly ok when he got up, he rose almost immediately from the knockdown, and then got up and started whaling away at Mitchell.

When Mitchell got up, he wasn't on sound legs, and he was soon in trouble again.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » 08 Jan 2005, 05:28

So the German refereeing is bias but the British isn’t.

(The Ottke ref was Belgian)
G’wan,

U know if the roles were reversed the referee wouldn’t have stopped the Mitchell fight.
There are just as many who will agree with me as there are who will agree with U.
They just happen to live outside the UK.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 08 Jan 2005, 06:41

Ah now I see it Blue - Mitchell was, in fact, on the verge of a magnificent win against Calzaghe, and was only denied this by a corrupt referee.
I think he can rightfully call himself the uncrowned champ at 168. Closely followed by that other magnificent American, the fearsome TNT fisted Jeff Lacy.

Thanks for clearing that up for us

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 08 Jan 2005, 08:04

Blue wrote: So the German refereeing is bias but the British isn’t.
(The Ottke ref was Belgian)
G’wan,
U know if the roles were reversed the referee wouldn’t have stopped the Mitchell fight.
There are just as many who will agree with me as there are who will agree with U.
They just happen to live outside the UK.

I actually think if the roles were reversed parris would still have stopped the fight.

The way mitchell sagged back into the ropes, his legs totally gone, i can't really imagine happening to calzaghe but if it did parris would jump in, he always seems a bit scared in those situations and errs on the side of caution.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Jan 2005, 08:54

Blue wrote: So the German refereeing is bias but the British isn’t.
(The Ottke ref was Belgian)
G’wan,
U know if the roles were reversed the referee wouldn’t have stopped the Mitchell fight.
There are just as many who will agree with me as there are who will agree with U.
They just happen to live outside the UK.

#

If you think I am biased, you are wrong. I have seen many fights where a British referee appeared to err on the side of the British fighter, and have said as much to the promoter at the show, so don't tell me I'm saying

The appointment of Roger Tillerman is one of the most blatantly corrupt occurences I've ever seen. The guy had NEVER refereed a world title fight, and there were a lot of things going on in the background which pointed to collusion between the IBF officials, and Ottke's promoters, including free holidays and gifts exchanged between them. The official who appointed Tillerman, Benedetto Montello had been involved in a prior scandal in 1999.

Tillerman refused to allow Reid to even hit Ottke, warning him for imaginary infractions, and even denying Reid what was a blatant knockdown on Ottke, and continually stepping between the fighters to protect Ottke, who was under serious fire in the 5th round.

You only had to look at the scorecards

Dave Pariss has also stopped lots of domestic contests early, I've watched him referee many times, and when a fighter is hurt like mitchell was, he almost always steps in.

Are you really trying to tell me that Mitchell was fine to continue, his legs were buckled and he was on the ropes getting drilled...plus he has just got up from a knockdown and he's in against a puncher.

Ever seen Emile Griffith against Benny Paret?

there is no comparison between the officiating in the Ottke v Reid contest (and I'm not even going to go into the ridiculous scorecards), and the job Pariss did that night, none whatsoever.,

Zhuge · Post by **Zhuge** » 08 Jan 2005, 13:30

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:And Calzaghe had Mitchell's number that night - no way was the American coming back from that.
Blue is just jealous, as they don't have any decent supermiddles in America.
Lacy's hard fought win over Sheika puts things into perspective, his punchpower seems a little overrated considering how easily Calzaghe put him to sleep.

Out of curiosity, had you seen Sheika's last several fights before he stepped in with Lacy? He's changed his style quite a bit since the first Pemberton fight and was looking quite good (after looking like he needed to retire after Pemberton). He surprised both Manu Ntoh (a guy that honestly beat Julio Gonzales and was robbed) and James Butler by boxing and avoiding his usual slugging style. He boxed well against Lacy and that's what gave the champ trouble. Further, the Sheika fight occurred just two months after he was in tough against Syd Vanderpool -- a guy Calzaghe refused to fight, opting instead to take on such promising opponents as Kabary Salem.

Say what you want about Lacy, but at least he's extremely active and in the public eye, rather than pulling out of fight after fight after fight.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 08 Jan 2005, 13:43

I didn't argue with the Mitchell stoppage but an interesting point to note is that Mitchell actually threw the last punch before the stoppage. I think that only the fact he had dropped Calzaghe earlier made it more contentious, had Calzaghe not been hurt when he went on the salvo i think it would have been a good stoppage but i suppose Mitchell could perhaps argue a little more because he himself he had just dropped Calzaghe.

But still i agreed with the stoppage

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 08 Jan 2005, 13:46

steve689 wrote:I didn't argue with the Mitchell stoppage but an interesting point to note is that Mitchell actually threw the last punch before the stoppage. I think that only the fact he had dropped Calzaghe earlier made it more contentious, had Calzaghe not been hurt when he went on the salvo i think it would have been a good stoppage but i suppose Mitchell could perhaps argue a little more because he himself he had just dropped Calzaghe.

But still i agreed with the stoppage

I agree with the first paragraph, I thought the stoppage was premature given that it was for the title and the fact the Mitchell was still throwing and could have easily turned the tide - Calzaghe wasn't thinking about defence.

Indeed my father's reaction was "Thank god it is stopped", not because of Mitchell's condition because he could see Mitchell catching Calzaghe.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » 08 Jan 2005, 20:20

I’m not arguing the Ottke-Reid case as I’m in agreement that it was ALSO “Home cooking”.

The Emile Griffith - Benny Paret is not a good comparison because that fight went 12 hard rds.
When a man is fatigued he tends to be easier to hit and hurt.
A tired fighter, with blood flowing sluggishly through the brain, would have had trouble shaking off the effects.
I think my analogy of Marquez-Pacquiao makes a better case.

Mitchell was in excellent physical condition & it was only the second rd with 24 sec. left.
He was also a puncher & could have turned the fight around as well.
As has already been well said by Stu & Steve, given that it was for the title, that Mitchell was still throwing
and could have taken a knee…

But Paris never gave him a chance. :(

What was a just & humane act to U smelled of “Home cooking” to me.

But the REAL issue is, Calzaghe talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
I sure there are many Brits that will agree that Reid should also have had a rematch.
Then there are the other 13 top contenders that have been fighting each other while Joe went back to his bottom feeding last year.

And U guys lament why Calzaghe is not given his due by the “Outside World”.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 08 Jan 2005, 21:09

Blue wrote: I’m not arguing the Ottke-Reid case as I’m in agreement that it was ALSO “Home cooking”.

The Emile Griffith - Benny Paret is not a good comparison because that fight went 12 hard rds.
When a man is fatigued he tends to be easier to hit and hurt.
A tired fighter, with blood flowing sluggishly through the brain, would have had trouble shaking off the effects.
I think my analogy of Marquez-Pacquiao makes a better case.

Mitchell was in excellent physical condition & it was only the second rd with 24 sec. left.
He was also a puncher & could have turned the fight around as well.
As has already been well said by Stu & Steve, given that it was for the title, that Mitchell was still throwing
and could have taken a knee… But Paris never gave him a chance. :(
What was a just & humane act to U smelled of “Home cooking” to me.

But the REAL issue is, Calzaghe talks the talk but does not walk the walk.
I sure there are many Brits that will agree that Reid should also have had a rematch.
Then there are the other 13 top contenders that have been fighting each other while Joe went back to his bottom feeding last year.
And U guys lament why Calzaghe is not given his due by the “Outside World”.

I make NO excuses for Calzaghe, I personally believe that he has got lazy, and is content with his record for wbo title defences. However, despite that, I HONESTLY, think there was nothing wrong with the mitchelll stoppage, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.