BoxRec

Duran1970 wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 10:53

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑11 Jun 2020, 10:33
If what I’ve written really is "crap", pick one of the paragraphs and critique it. Explain the reason why you disagree?

I’ll tell you what, I'll even help you... let’s discuss what I wrote about Rocky Marciano, shall we? And then we'll move onto the other fighters I mentioned...

For instance: Many believed that Rocky Marciano possessed “freakish” punching power, which he may have done during his own era, but he was only the same size as a modern-day light heavyweight. He was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

So it wouldn’t make any sense for anyone to compare Marciano’s punching power to a modern-day heavyweight, because he often entered the ring lighter than the likes of Isaac Chilemba, Eleider Alvarez, Sergey Kovalev, Tony Bellew, Chad Dawson, Glen Johnson etc. did when they all competed at light heavyweight.

Well for starters, cruiserweight Steve Cunningham put fury on his ass and I believe Marciano would've kept him there cuz anyone with vision would agree Rocky hits much harder than Cunningham..that's just one example..
Next.

You’re comparing the prime version of Rocky Marciano to the novice iteration of Tyson Fury. So your comparison is inappropriate to the point of being desperately dishonest.

Tyson Fury was simply a 24-year-old novice making his debut on US soil at world-level when he faced the 210lbs Steve Cunningham, with the American being 24lbs heavier and 4½ inches taller than Rocky Marciano.

We can even debate Steve Cunningham’s world-level credentials if you like.

And let’s not forget that ‘The Brockton Blockbuster’ made his pro debut when he was 23½ years of age!

Rocky’s average weight for his world title bouts was 186lbs, with his career average being 185lbs. His world title opponents typically weighed only 191lbs. This is the equivalent of the typical ring weight of today's rehydrated 175lb-ers. And I can easily cite several examples to prove that this is definitely the case.

The 6’ 9” Tyson Fury is 10½ inches taller and 87lbs heavier than the prime version of Rocky Marciano.

The prime versions of Rocky Marciano and Mike Tyson were about the same height, but ‘The Brockton Blockbuster’ was 31lbs lighter(i.e. 186lbs vs. 217lbs), which is a hell of a lot of weight.


Anyway, you haven’t really addressed the point I raised, have you? You’ve criticised my post, but you haven’t actually explained precisely what’s wrong with it.

Instead, you’re trying to change the topic, rather than detail any factual inaccuracies with what I’ve written.

And I’m guessing the reason for that is rather obvious.

You keep repeating the same shit... measurements measurements and more measurements..boxing isn't about height and weight..any mental midget knows this..people here gave examples and in ring points that disprove your believe but all you do is repeat the same stuff..Fury is grossly overated. Big yes....but so was primo carnera. Doesn't mean you have the skills and ability to beat the greats of the past..pump the brakes on fury.

Fury was a novice?
Ok I'll go more recent...
If he struggled with Otto Wallin I think the greats I mentioned would chop fury down..
Timber!!!!!!

There is no heavyweight in history, alive or living, big or small that would be able to continue if they found themselves on the end of Marciano's Suzie Q.

He may have only weighed 189lbs but he was superbly conditioned and relentlessly and tirelessly used every ounce of hard, lean muscle to connect.

Deontay Wilder, despite his advantages of height, reach and weight is simply not as tough or relentless. Not his fault, they were different times, but still, he could learn something from watching Marciano fight.

For sure Rocky's record was not the greatest, and he wisely got out before Liston got in, nevertheless it's difficult to name any heavyweight, maybe any boxer per se, who ever threw a better leveraged punch.

Those six fights mentioned avg age was 36.
Not almost 40.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:30 Fury was a novice?
Ok I'll go more recent...
If he struggled with Otto Wallin I think the greats I mentioned would chop fury down..
Timber!!!!!!

It's a bit of a stretch to say he struggled with Wallin. He only lost like what 2 or 3 rounds? He was cut early in the bout, and fought most of the fight bleeding heavily, but he wasn't in a lot of danger of getting beaten other than the cut.

He looked terrible

Duran1970 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:27 You keep repeating the same poo... measurements measurements and more measurements..boxing isn't about height and weight..any mental midget knows this..people here gave examples and in ring points that disprove your believe but all you do is repeat the same stuff..Fury is grossly overated. Big yes....but so was primo carnera. Doesn't mean you have the skills and ability to beat the greats of the past..pump the brakes on fury.

If physical size is irrelevant, then why do weight divisions exist?

And why is it very easy to find videos of boxing insiders (pundits, former/current pros, trainers, journalists etc.) commenting on the practical reality of size mattering? I have even posted a few of them.

I’ve also provided a video of Mike Tyson explaining how wouldn’t have been able to beat the Klitchko’s because they were bigger and that athletes just keep getting better as time goes on.

By modern standards, Rocky Marciano was only a light heavyweight and the fact that he was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury, has to mean something!

Stupid to say size doesn't matter. It should be obvious to us all, it matters but it works together with ability.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:33

Duran1970 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:27 You keep repeating the same poo... measurements measurements and more measurements..boxing isn't about height and weight..any mental midget knows this..people here gave examples and in ring points that disprove your believe but all you do is repeat the same stuff..Fury is grossly overated. Big yes....but so was primo carnera. Doesn't mean you have the skills and ability to beat the greats of the past..pump the brakes on fury.

If physical size is irrelevant, then why do weight divisions exist?

And why is it very easy to find videos of boxing insiders (pundits, former/current pros, trainers, journalists etc.) commenting on the practical reality of size mattering? I have even posted a few of them.

I’ve also provided a video of Mike Tyson explaining how wouldn’t have been able to beat the Klitchko’s because they were bigger and that athletes just keep getting better as time goes on.

By modern standards, Rocky Marciano was only a light heavyweight and the fact that he was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury, has to mean something!

If size is the end all, be all why does Fury have a lower KO percentage than Rocky Marciano?

Size does matter. It's just not the only thing that matters.

Duran1970 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:30 Fury was a novice?
Ok I'll go more recent...
If he struggled with Otto Wallin I think the greats I mentioned would chop fury down..
Timber!!!!!!

Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

So does this mean that the likes of Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali should be considered as being chinny?

Or is it more likely that they simply suffered occasionally from bad days at the office or they sometimes had rare momentary lapses of concentration, which is something that has affected every single fighter that has ever competed in the sport?

Nostalgia isn’t a sufficient counter-argument, because the only things that matter is what has actually occured in reality.

Anyway, the topic of conversation is whether today’s big men hit harder than those from yesterday… and on average they almost certainly do, because fighters keep growing in size and their athleticism keeps improving also.

For sure, there are exceptions, and I’m not going to labour over rare individual instances, because they won’t disprove the general rule.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:43

Duran1970 wrote: ↑15 Jun 2020, 15:30 Fury was a novice?
Ok I'll go more recent...
If he struggled with Otto Wallin I think the greats I mentioned would chop fury down..
Timber!!!!!!

Doug Jones almost knocked down Muhammad Ali, but the likes of Alan Hudson, Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper, Joe Frazier and Chuck Wepner all managed to deck him.

Cleveland Williams (almost stopped Liston), Marty Marshall, Julius Griffin, Leotis Martin and Muhammad Ali all knocked down Sonny Liston.

So does this mean that the likes of Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali should be considered as being chinny?

Or is it more likely that they simply suffered occasionally from bad days at the office or they sometimes had rare momentary lapses of concentration, which is something that has affected every single fighter that has ever competed in the sport?

Nostalgia isn’t a sufficient counter-argument, because the only things that matter is what has actually occured in reality.

Anyway, the topic of conversation is whether today’s big men hit harder than those from yesterday… and on average they almost certainly do, because fighters keep growing in size and their athleticism keeps improving also.

For sure, there are exceptions, and I’m not going to labour over rare individual instances, because they won’t disprove the general rule.

Most of the guys today wouldn't be able to match Stamina with a lot of guys from the past. The guys that trained for the 15 round distance commonly kept a better pace than the guys who compete now in 12 rounders.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:41

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:33
If physical size is irrelevant, then why do weight divisions exist?

And why is it very easy to find videos of boxing insiders (pundits, former/current pros, trainers, journalists etc.) commenting on the practical reality of size mattering? I have even posted a few of them.

I’ve also provided a video of Mike Tyson explaining how wouldn’t have been able to beat the Klitchko’s because they were bigger and that athletes just keep getting better as time goes on.

By modern standards, Rocky Marciano was only a light heavyweight and the fact that he was almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury, has to mean something!

If size is the end all, be all why does Fury have a lower KO percentage than Rocky Marciano?

Size does matter. It's just not the only thing that matters.

We both agree that size does matter.

No one has said that size is the be-all-and-end-all. You know for certain that I haven't claimed this to be the case, since we've discussed this at length and I must have explained this to you at least four times.

The thing is, you keep pretending that this is something I believe in, despite me repeatedly telling you otherwise.

Just in case you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve just written, let me make this perfectly clear!

• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!
• I have never said that size is the be-all-and-end-all!

Please refrain from being dishonest by making derogatory claims about what I believe in if your accusations bear no relation to anything I’ve actually written!

General rules exist. Exceptions exist also. Size matters, but other things do too.

The only thing that is totally irrelevant is nostalgia, hearsay, rumour, hype or reputation.

Considering it's all you keep posting about for the last week, it's kinda hard to interpret your belief any other way.

Maybe you didn't outright say those words, but you make arguments toward that point every single day I'm on here.

Tbf, I've been through this too with this argument. There are some people, who as soon as you mention size, can't interpret that as anything other than 'size is all that counts!'

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:57 Tbf, I've been through this too with this argument. There are some people, who as soon as you mention size, can't interpret that as anything other than 'size is all that counts!'

Do you ever mention size where you're not using it as a factor for why you think the bigger man is definitely gonna win?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:54 Considering it's all you keep posting about for the last week, it's kinda hard to interpret your belief any other way.

Maybe you didn't outright say those words, but you make arguments toward that point every single day I'm on here.

In terms of the recent posts in this thread, we've been discussing my claim about Rocky Marciano being almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

Others believe that sort of size discrepancy to be totally irrelevant, since they feel that such a handicap wouldn't affect Marciano, but I believe otherwise.

That being said, do you feel that Tyson Fury would struggle to beat a rehydrated 175lb-er like Rocky Marciano and that size is irrelevant if such a bout ever took place?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 13:01

gilgamesh wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 12:54 Considering it's all you keep posting about for the last week, it's kinda hard to interpret your belief any other way.

Maybe you didn't outright say those words, but you make arguments toward that point every single day I'm on here.

In terms of the recent posts in this thread, we've been discussing my claim about Rocky Marciano being almost 100lbs lighter and a foot shorter than Tyson Fury.

Others believe that sort of size discrepancy to be totally irrelevant, since they feel that such a handicap wouldn't affect Marciano, but I believe otherwise.

That being said, do you feel that Tyson Fury would struggle to beat a rehydrated 175lb-er like Rocky Marciano and that size is irrelevant if such a bout ever took place?

I don't think he'd have a lot of trouble with Marciano.

He might've had hell with Dempsey though.

Fury would beat Rock

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 13:03 Fury would beat Rock

A lot of great and even very good fighters would. Mainly because he was right in your face just trying to outslug you and outpower you, and he wasn't particularly fast in spite of his size.

I can't imagine a guy with his style is gonna fare too well going up against significantly larger men.

I don't think there is always a lot of difference between different fighters power. Corrie Sanders could bang and probably punched harder than Marciano but Sanders lacked the fitness and stamina Marciano had. I think too much is made of power, would you really tell the difference if Bonecrusher Smith, Bruno, AJ etc cracked you with a right hand, probably not, they would all hurt like hell. Tyson had speed and could punch hard with both hands and that made him more dangerous but several opponents of his rated other fighters as hitting harder than Tyson.

Sanders didn't hit harder than Marciano. Valid overall point, especially at hw.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑16 Jun 2020, 14:09 Sanders didn't hit harder than Marciano. Valid overall point, especially at hw.

Thats my point though, Sanders was dangerous in the first few rounds, if he cracked you on the chin he has as much chance of knocking you out than Marciano. Power is power, the degrees are negligible.

He did it once. Marciano much more.

A rehydrated 175 lbs
Hahahaha
That's hilarious