BoxRec

List was done well just minor changes I would make Monzon should be ahead of hagler, Joe Louis should switch spots with Willie pep.

Pacquiao should be above Mayweather his resume is way beter. He beat Morales, Barrera, Cotto, margarito, Hatton, delahoya as well as the lineal flyweight champion and was a huge underdog when he fought many fights. Mayweather never took a fight where he was not the favoured to win. People forget that he never took a risk in his career.

paul1497 wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 03:22 List was done well just minor changes I would make Monzon should be ahead of hagler, Joe Louis should switch spots with Willie pep.

Pacquiao should be above Mayweather his resume is way beter. He beat Morales, Barrera, Cotto, margarito, Hatton, delahoya as well as the lineal flyweight champion and was a huge underdog when he fought many fights. Mayweather never took a fight where he was not the favoured to win. People forget that he never took a risk in his career.

It's a weak argument when you rate Pac over Floyd, when a 38yr old Floyd beat him, and Pac is 2yrs younger. Resumes don't do the boxing.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 13:30

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 19:20 On that initial post I don't really see any argument for putting Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

The fact he started at flyweight and was even in the conversation with Floyd at welter.

I hate to say it, but Floyd was a flyweight at the same age Manny was. Just as an amateur rather than a pro.

Any list that doesn't have Ali at No 1 HW and Tyson at 2 is looking a little suspicious.

As for MW it's between Hagler and GGG for me. Both outsiders, both did it the hard route.


For WW you've got Leonard and Hearns.
Sheer boxing perfection. The original Sugar Ray may have been better, but it's difficult to see how, unless he actually was Hearns/Leonard combined!

Duran and Pacquiao earn their places too for sheer fearlessness as well as achievements.

Loma has certainly done enough too at the lighter weights, and Inoue may be joining him too.

Pre Ali is very difficult to judge. No discredit to Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and co but the historical black and white footage rather distances things.

squiggy wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 22:51

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 13:30

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 19:20 On that initial post I don't really see any argument for putting Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

The fact he started at flyweight and was even in the conversation with Floyd at welter.

I hate to say it, but Floyd was a flyweight at the same age Manny was. Just as an amateur rather than a pro.

A flyweight amatuer is different from a flyweight pro champion.

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 18:22

squiggy wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 22:51

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 13:30

The fact he started at flyweight and was even in the conversation with Floyd at welter.

I hate to say it, but Floyd was a flyweight at the same age Manny was. Just as an amateur rather than a pro.

A flyweight amatuer is different from a flyweight pro champion.

Not much if the same age and experience. Floyd was well schooled at an early age, 2 yrs older, yada yada.

Bandog wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 19:00

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑13 Mar 2022, 18:22

squiggy wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 22:51

I hate to say it, but Floyd was a flyweight at the same age Manny was. Just as an amateur rather than a pro.

A flyweight amatuer is different from a flyweight pro champion.

Not much if the same age and experience. Floyd was well schooled at an early age, 2 yrs older, yada yada.

Still different. If he was ready, he would've turned pro overseas considering he was broke at 15-16 by his own admission. A more telling sign, is if he really was ready, once he turned pro, he would've taken the Lomachenko route and went for a title shot immediately.

How can u put a list like this together to include years and eras that you weren’t around for? Imo, these are useless. You can’t get a feel for it unless you saw these ATG fighters entering big fights not knowing who might win.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2022, 09:59 How can u put a list like this together to include years and eras that you weren’t around for? Imo, these are useless. You can’t get a feel for it unless you saw these ATG fighters entering big fights not knowing who might win.

Who are you responding to? The first post in this thread contains a hyperlink to an article posted on a website.

But I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments though.

People read things about fighters that competed more than a century ago, written by authors who never even saw these guys compete, but those individuals still passionately assert that those old-timers are better than today's boxers.

I think the lists aren't doing Floyd or Manny any favours really.

Don't see how Floyd can be lower than Pernell.

I see both in the top 10.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Mar 2022, 10:14

caldo2025 wrote: ↑15 Mar 2022, 09:59 How can u put a list like this together to include years and eras that you weren’t around for? Imo, these are useless. You can’t get a feel for it unless you saw these ATG fighters entering big fights not knowing who might win.

Who are you responding to? The first post in this thread contains a hyperlink to an article posted on a website.

But I do wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments though.

People read things about fighters that competed more than a century ago, written by authors who never even saw these guys compete, but those individuals still passionately assert that those old-timers are better than today's boxers.

My post was more directed to the idea of having these P4P lists inclusive of ancient fighters. It’s hard enough to put together a current P4P list with videos of most fights at our ready. Perhaps, I’d feel better about them if there were more details included as to why these boxers should be included so we could at least feel more through context of the times these fighters fought through during their best victories. What were the odds of the fights. Who were the underdog and fav. I just have a horrible time learning to appreciate these old timers because they don’t provide the details that really show me why they were so great and dominating.

Personally, I can provide top 10 lists going back to the late 70’s because I experienced what the landscape was and how big and important major victories were.

It's hard to compare boxers from different eras. Pfp has been, and always will be just opinions.

That said, the reason the old guys are in the conversation is they fought more often, and had 8 weights, 8 champs. Now we have 17 weights and 64 champs.

Things change. Athletes now are bigger, stronger, faster, but their accomplishments aren't greater because sports like boxing are too watered down.

H8Usernames wrote: ↑06 Jan 2021, 10:58 A quick RJJr vs Pacman 6 P4P 6 Rounder.

Amateurs
Not a fair comparisson. Pacman didnt have access to Sugar Ray Leonard or Floyd Mayweather sr etc like Roy and Floyd did.

10-10

Best wins.
Toney and Miguel Cotti
10-9 RJJR

2nd
BHOP and Marco Antonio Barrera
10-10

3Rd
Johnny Ruiz and Ricky Hatton
10-9 RJjr

4th
Antonio Tarver and Timothy Bradley
10-9 RJjr

5th
Big tossup for Pacman but lets place ODLH and Jorge Castro here.
10-9 RJjr

Your winner by ud Roy Jones jr 60-56. Pacman won 1 round more than FMJR vs RJjr but still lost by a shutout decision. Yeah... these guys Pacman and FMjr belong so so much higher on p4p lists than RJjr does.

You fellows are just mainstream fans really and sheeple. It isnt popular to admit RJJr's accomplishments any more "so its best to just say that he was no good."

Big RJJ fan here but.....
Toney *may* have been better than Cotto but both Toney and Jones were at their best weight while Pac was in his 7th division and Cotto was at his best.
Hopkins was certainly pre-prime, Barrera was still in his prime.
Hatton was a better fighter than Ruiz, was lineal champion while Ruiz was just a title holder who was never good enough to beat the top guys at HW. An old Holyfield is his best win.
I don't think there is much splitting Tarver and Bradley but after Jones squeeked past Tarver he was then quickly knocked out in the rematch and lost a lopsided decision in the 3rd fight. Bradley on the other hand got the gift of all gifts against Pacquiao lost 2 other pretty convincing fights against Pacquiao.



Lineal titles - Pacquiao - 4 RJJ- 0.

Jones' career is a huge what could have been. He was the best fighter in 3 of the weight classes he competed in but he never completely proved it by beating most of the best guys around. That you bring up Castro as Jones' 6th best win is evidence of that, while Pacquiao still has another 5 names at least that you could regards as bigger wins than Tarver.

squiggy wrote: ↑12 Mar 2022, 22:51

IKSRTFO wrote: ↑04 Jan 2021, 13:30

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Jan 2021, 19:20 On that initial post I don't really see any argument for putting Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather.

The fact he started at flyweight and was even in the conversation with Floyd at welter.

I hate to say it, but Floyd was a flyweight at the same age Manny was. Just as an amateur rather than a pro.

They seemed to have been similar weights around the ages of 16&17 based on weigh ins however Pacquiao has stated that he put weights in his pocked to be over the 105lbs in his early fights. Just because two guys are the same or similar weight as teens doesn't mean they are actually the same size as adults.
At 19 Pacquaio was a flyweight world champion, Mayweather was competing at featherweight at the olympics.
At 20 Pacquiao was still at flyweight and Mayweather was competing at super featherweight.
Floyd is definitely the naturally bigger man, he has a bigger frame. Both were small for modern welterweights though and its a testament to their talent they were able to be at the top of the weight class for so long.

Henry Armstrong #1

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑17 Mar 2022, 23:52 Henry Armstrong #1

Have you ever watched one of his world title fights live?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑18 Mar 2022, 01:00

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑17 Mar 2022, 23:52 Henry Armstrong #1

Have you ever watched one of his world title fights live?

I'm sure you have EO!