BoxRec

Tyson was never going to have a long career at the top, he was too unstable mentally and he let the fame, money and women affect his training and desire. Holyfield had a winning mindset, dedication to training and mentally he was very strong.

In Mikes defence he was the most famous boxer since Ali and probably on someone like Dempsey or Sullivan rivalled him in fame at their peak. While I don't disagree with the above, the fame most fighters have or had (including Holyfield) is nothing like the fame Mike had. I can't imagine that level of fame being helpful to any fighter, Ali aside.

p4p1 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 06:59 In Mikes defence he was the most famous boxer since Ali and probably on someone like Dempsey or Sullivan rivalled him in fame at their peak. While I don't disagree with the above, the fame most fighters have or had (including Holyfield) is nothing like the fame Mike had. I can't imagine that level of fame being helpful to any fighter, Ali aside.

Tyson was a bully, after Cus he was surrounded by yes men, spongers and wrong 'uns. He was what he was, a delinquent with anger issues sprinkled with mental health problems who hit the big time. He was always an accident waiting to happen. If it wasn't for boxing he'd probably be dead or in prison.

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 07:22

p4p1 wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 06:59 In Mikes defence he was the most famous boxer since Ali and probably on someone like Dempsey or Sullivan rivalled him in fame at their peak. While I don't disagree with the above, the fame most fighters have or had (including Holyfield) is nothing like the fame Mike had. I can't imagine that level of fame being helpful to any fighter, Ali aside.

Tyson was a bully, after Cus he was surrounded by yes men, spongers and wrong 'uns. He was what he was, a delinquent with anger issues sprinkled with mental health problems who hit the big time. He was always an accident waiting to happen. If it wasn't for boxing he'd probably be dead or in prison.

Other than it was after he fired Rooney and Jacobs or Cayton that he was surrounded by yes men, I don't disagree with any of that.

Tyson just wasn’t mentally strong enough to handle his situation, at least he popular, can you imagine him having to go through what Jack Johnson went through? All of white society against him and probably every crowd at every fight against him and he handled it like a boss and usually with a smile on his face.

No

Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

Not in my opinion. And not because I am down on Tyson. I believe there are many heavyweight champions through the ages, who could not hang in there against Mike's attack. It is just that I rank Holyfield higher than most do. I consider him in the top three of all time as a Heavyweight. In any event, he is a notch above Mike, IMO.

Djanders44 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2020, 16:43 Not in my opinion. And not because I am down on Tyson. I believe there are many heavyweight champions through the ages, who could not hang in there against Mike's attack. It is just that I rank Holyfield higher than most do. I consider him in the top three of all time as a Heavyweight. In any event, he is a notch above Mike, IMO.

Holyfield's all wrong for Mike. Always would've been. No matter when they fought. Even if they fought tonight.

Jaywheel wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 12:32 Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

Come on, Jack Johnson wouldn't have looked twice at Robin Givens

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 05:57 Tyson was never going to have a long career at the top, he was too unstable mentally and he let the fame, money and women affect his training and desire. Holyfield had a winning mindset, dedication to training and mentally he was very strong.

Yet he somehow still managed to father 88 kids by 119 women

Jaywheel wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 12:32 Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

He’d have had both mum and daughter grafting on the street.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑29 Nov 2020, 05:28

Jaywheel wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 12:32 Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

He’d have had both mum and daughter grafting on the street.

bollocks wrote: ↑28 Nov 2020, 20:17

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 05:57 Tyson was never going to have a long career at the top, he was too unstable mentally and he let the fame, money and women affect his training and desire. Holyfield had a winning mindset, dedication to training and mentally he was very strong.

Yet he somehow still managed to father 88 kids by 119 women

The Holy(field) bunch..

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑28 Nov 2020, 17:54

Jaywheel wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 12:32 Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

Come on, Jack Johnson wouldn't have looked twice at Robin Givens

She is too Black for his taste!

(I personally think she is gorgeous)

I picked Tyson over Holyfield when they were supposed to fight in '91. I picked Tyson over Holyfield when they finally fought. I picked Tyson over Holyfield in the rematch. If they were to have a "Legends Exhibition" today, I might just pick Tyson.

With that understood, Holyfield is 2-0 in their series. He knocked the man out the first time (which, incidentally, was also one of the all time great career comebacks) and, for all intents and purposes, made him quit the second time. Arguing Tyson's superiority is an insult.

Holyfield wasn't light years better, but he was clearly better. Tyson was great; Holyfield was greater.

bwu wrote: ↑29 Nov 2020, 21:30 I picked Tyson over Holyfield when they were supposed to fight in '91. I picked Tyson over Holyfield when they finally fought. I picked Tyson over Holyfield in the rematch. If they were to have a "Legends Exhibition" today, I might just pick Tyson.

With that understood, Holyfield is 2-0 in their series. He knocked the man out the first time (which, incidentally, was also one of the all time great career comebacks) and, for all intents and purposes, made him quit the second time. Arguing Tyson's superiority is an insult.

If they were to fight tomorrow I'd definitely still be taking Holyfield.

I can't say I would've picked Holyfield in 1991 or 1996 as I was too young to care, but like most at the time I probably would've favored Tyson because he was the more well known and famous fighter.

With the knowledge I have now though, I can't see Holyfield ever losing to Mike.

Not even in 1989.

Buster Douglas beat the sh*t out of Tyson in pretty much one sided fashion. In his very next fight Holyfield knocked out Douglas in 3 with minimal difficulty.

That's yet another example of how he was better. Aside from the 2 head to head victories.

littlepug wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 08:29 Tyson just wasn’t mentally strong enough to handle his situation, at least he popular, can you imagine him having to go through what Jack Johnson went through? All of white society against him and probably every crowd at every fight against him and he handled it like a boss and usually with a smile on his face.

And no security guards or police to help him. A hostile crowd then was really a very dangerous place.

AntonioMartin wrote: ↑29 Nov 2020, 07:29

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑28 Nov 2020, 17:54

Jaywheel wrote: ↑16 Nov 2020, 12:32 Can you imagine Jack Johnson dealing with the Givens? That's some SERIOUS drama.

Come on, Jack Johnson wouldn't have looked twice at Robin Givens

She is too Black for his taste!

(I personally think she is gorgeous)

I looked back at her playboy, she had great tits but a terrible crabbit as fûck face.

Holyfield beats Tyson H2H but realistically there are probably guys Holyfield loses to who Tyson beats.

Holyfield lost to Moorer and I've yet to meet anyone who ranks Moorer ahead of Tyson.

True, and that should count against Holyfield. He still was better than Tyson.
You have to count head to head, common opponents, losses to fighters they should have beat, big wins. To some degree you have consider as objectively as you can how good the fighters looked on film. Holyfield was better.
Overall, Tyson was the third best hw of his era; of course in many eras he would have been #1.

Holyfield was badly injured when he lost to Moorer, and destroyed him with five KDs in the rematch when he was uninjured.

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 13:18 Holyfield was badly injured when he lost to Moorer, and destroyed him with five KDs in the rematch when he was uninjured.

Supposedly had a heart condition, too.

AntonioMartin wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 19:03

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 13:18 Holyfield was badly injured when he lost to Moorer, and destroyed him with five KDs in the rematch when he was uninjured.

Supposedly had a heart condition, too.

That proved to be a misdiagnosis but a quarter of a century later the story persists