Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 01:06
Nile4000 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 23:12He had a couple early on.
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Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 01:29
Sonny didn't dominate, just did enough to win.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 03:16
Which ones?Nile4000 wrote: ↑15 Dec 2020, 23:12He had a couple early on.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 15:38
A psychological barriar was broken in that fight because Eddie Machen was the first fighter to go 12 full rounds with Liston.
(Burt Whithurst went 10 rounds with Liston a year earlier but was right on the verge of being knocked out in the 10th but was saved by the bell.
also I think after Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali almost wanted to quit on the stool during the first fight
( but Angelo Dundee would.t let him)because of some claimed substance
because "There's Funny Buisness Going ON !"
on Liston's gloves were making his eyes swell.
Eddie Machen also claimed the same thing in his fight with Liston.
(Burt Whithurst went 10 rounds with Liston a year earlier but was right on the verge of being knocked out in the 10th but was saved by the bell.
also I think after Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali almost wanted to quit on the stool during the first fight
( but Angelo Dundee would.t let him)because of some claimed substance
because "There's Funny Buisness Going ON !"
on Liston's gloves were making his eyes swell.
Eddie Machen also claimed the same thing in his fight with Liston.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 18:13
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 11:48
First 2 rounds. Liston couldn't really tag Machen and Eddie was catching Sonny frequently. Hence Sonny's frustration and Eddie smiling at the end of the rounds.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 15:50
The guys Liston beat are not very impressive on a H2H basis. It's difficult to extrapolate how would do against many heavyweights of later eras based on who he actually beat.
Eddie Machen got bombed out in one round by Ingemar Johansson and lost to Harold Johnson. Liston beating him wouldn't seem to have much bearing on how he would do against a Lewis or Klitschko.
Eddie Machen got bombed out in one round by Ingemar Johansson and lost to Harold Johnson. Liston beating him wouldn't seem to have much bearing on how he would do against a Lewis or Klitschko.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 15:51
here's the fight that Angelo Dundee and Muhammad Ali HAD studied for the October 1974 fight in Zaire Africa.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 16:12
No fighter in history is unbeatable, especially at HW, so highly unlikely that Liston beats everyone listed on the original post. Liston was one of the first decent big HWs and was the bigger stronger man in most fights, this does make a difference. Its weird because many don't see this as a problem but I bet if AJ or Fury were fighting guys weighing 176-200lbs they would say they had an unfair advantage.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 16:33
Josh lost to a slovenly 176-200 pound man.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 16:41
You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 16:47
He's a fat slob. Liston was clearly a bigger man than Andy.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:41You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 18:15
That's a bit unfair, "Two Ton" Tony Galento was a "fat slob" too. There's more than meets the eye.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:47He's a fat slob. Liston was clearly a bigger man than Andy.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:41You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 18:40
Tubbs and Witherspoon were fat too, some people just have that genetic makeup, Tyson Fury has been flabby too and even in good shape is still carrying excess blubber. Ruiz is a big guy and even if he whipped himself into incredible shape he would still be well over 200Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:47He's a fat slob. Liston was clearly a bigger man than Andy.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:41You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 18:56
Look at what I was responding too. Point being Ruiz is not a big heavyweight, he's fat. Doesn't mean he can't fight.Mikey K wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 18:15That's a bit unfair, "Two Ton" Tony Galento was a "fat slob" too. There's more than meets the eye.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:47He's a fat slob. Liston was clearly a bigger man than Andy.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:41
You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 17 Dec 2020, 19:02
He's a blob, his body is so used to the flab so it wouldn't go well if he tried to lose 100 pounds and fight, but areola fought around 65 in the amateurs and he's bigger than Andy in stature. Smart for both of them, Chris was glacier slow in shape. Andy is faster than him, but it wouldn't have been an advantage if he came up at 75 or 200.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 18:40Tubbs and Witherspoon were fat too, some people just have that genetic makeup, Tyson Fury has been flabby too and even in good shape is still carrying excess blubber. Ruiz is a big guy and even if he whipped himself into incredible shape he would still be well over 200Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:47He's a fat slob. Liston was clearly a bigger man than Andy.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 16:41
You mean the 268lb Ruiz? Hardly the same is it, Ruiz is a big thick set guy, the lightest he's ever weighed at HW was 247lb and he has been as high as 298lb. I doubt he could get anywhere near 176
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 02:39
Liston didn't really ever get tested against big punchers, given that he wasn't especially elusive why is it safe to assume he can successfully weather punches from guys who are far bigger punchers than anyone he fought in actual bouts?
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 03:36
Just because HW fighters ae bigger physically doesn't necessarily mean they're bigger punchersCojimar 1946 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 02:39 Liston didn't really ever get tested against big punchers, given that he wasn't especially elusive why is it safe to assume he can successfully weather punches from guys who are far bigger punchers than anyone he fought in actual bouts?
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 03:49
But he can fight with that weight, it’s not like he’s knackered after two rounds like some muscle bound heavies are. Body size and shape doesn’t affect ability and Ruiz can box.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 19:02He's a blob, his body is so used to the flab so it wouldn't go well if he tried to lose 100 pounds and fight, but areola fought around 65 in the amateurs and he's bigger than Andy in stature. Smart for both of them, Chris was glacier slow in shape. Andy is faster than him, but it wouldn't have been an advantage if he came up at 75 or 200.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 18:40Tubbs and Witherspoon were fat too, some people just have that genetic makeup, Tyson Fury has been flabby too and even in good shape is still carrying excess blubber. Ruiz is a big guy and even if he whipped himself into incredible shape he would still be well over 200
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 04:30
Controversial wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 03:49But he can fight with that weight, it’s not like he’s knackered after two rounds like some muscle bound heavies are. Body size and shape doesn’t affect ability and Ruiz can box.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 19:02He's a blob, his body is so used to the flab so it wouldn't go well if he tried to lose 100 pounds and fight, but areola fought around 65 in the amateurs and he's bigger than Andy in stature. Smart for both of them, Chris was glacier slow in shape. Andy is faster than him, but it wouldn't have been an advantage if he came up at 75 or 200.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 18:40
Tubbs and Witherspoon were fat too, some people just have that genetic makeup, Tyson Fury has been flabby too and even in good shape is still carrying excess blubber. Ruiz is a big guy and even if he whipped himself into incredible shape he would still be well over 200
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 04:33
Yes but the weight doesn't really help him a huge amount. Physics says he would hit a bit harder with the extra weight but he'd move faster and easier without the weight. There is no way the extra weight doesn't come without drawbacks, he is still lugging around at least 40+ lbs of extra weight. If muscle bound heavies are knackered after two rounds then it's not just being muscle bound that's the problem, Tyson was musclebound as shit but at his best could go 12 rounds.Controversial wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 03:49But he can fight with that weight, it’s not like he’s knackered after two rounds like some muscle bound heavies are. Body size and shape doesn’t affect ability and Ruiz can box.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 19:02He's a blob, his body is so used to the flab so it wouldn't go well if he tried to lose 100 pounds and fight, but areola fought around 65 in the amateurs and he's bigger than Andy in stature. Smart for both of them, Chris was glacier slow in shape. Andy is faster than him, but it wouldn't have been an advantage if he came up at 75 or 200.Controversial wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 18:40
Tubbs and Witherspoon were fat too, some people just have that genetic makeup, Tyson Fury has been flabby too and even in good shape is still carrying excess blubber. Ruiz is a big guy and even if he whipped himself into incredible shape he would still be well over 200
Punching power is complex and that's why we have had guys like Hamed who weight 135 dripping wet who heavyweights said hit hard. Steward said he hit harder than Lewis, which I don't buy but if anything it confirms that the despite his stature could really punch. Mike Tyson said something about being hut by some heavyweights and not being phased but being hit by some LW's and being buzzed. Going much further back a bunch of old timers talk about Joe Choynski when asked about the biggest punchers they faced or have seen. Choynski was around 165, but the guy knocked a young Jack Johnson out with a single shot.
Wepner said that getting hit by Liston is like being hit with a baseball bat. I have no doubt Ruiz hit's hard but I agree with Onetime, if he was in shape he would be somewhere around the 200lbs mark. Liston at 215-220 had a 6 pack, in that kind of shape very few meaningful heavyweights today would be bigger than that. Joshua and Fury would be the only ones that come to mind. Liston's frame allows him to compete in any era IMO. I don't think he was unbeatable just that his physical assets and his own skills make him a hard fight for everybody and some guys who are clearly greater than him would be in for a rough night.
I'm not sure how a lot of todays heavyweights would deal with his (and a heap of others from earlier periods) activity level.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 07:26
How was Sonny to the fans?
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 07:29
Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 02:39 Liston didn't really ever get tested against big punchers, given that he wasn't especially elusive why is it safe to assume he can successfully weather punches from guys who are far bigger punchers than anyone he fought in actual bouts?
Cleveland williams? Pachecho saw Liston walk through his bombs easily.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 11:32
The comment I made was about Liston being bigger and stronger than a lot of his opponents. I'm far from writing him off against todays fighters but it's a bit of a stretch to say be beats everyone that was listed in the original post. Size and weight are complex and it doesn't always make sense how one fighter can put on weight and still be a force and others can't. Or how someone can be a puncher at one weight, pack on a few pounds and their power not as good. Then someone else carries the power up with them through the weights (Hearns).p4p1 wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 04:33Yes but the weight doesn't really help him a huge amount. Physics says he would hit a bit harder with the extra weight but he'd move faster and easier without the weight. There is no way the extra weight doesn't come without drawbacks, he is still lugging around at least 40+ lbs of extra weight. If muscle bound heavies are knackered after two rounds then it's not just being muscle bound that's the problem, Tyson was musclebound as shit but at his best could go 12 rounds.Controversial wrote: ↑18 Dec 2020, 03:49But he can fight with that weight, it’s not like he’s knackered after two rounds like some muscle bound heavies are. Body size and shape doesn’t affect ability and Ruiz can box.Onetimeonly wrote: ↑17 Dec 2020, 19:02
He's a blob, his body is so used to the flab so it wouldn't go well if he tried to lose 100 pounds and fight, but areola fought around 65 in the amateurs and he's bigger than Andy in stature. Smart for both of them, Chris was glacier slow in shape. Andy is faster than him, but it wouldn't have been an advantage if he came up at 75 or 200.
Punching power is complex and that's why we have had guys like Hamed who weight 135 dripping wet who heavyweights said hit hard. Steward said he hit harder than Lewis, which I don't buy but if anything it confirms that the despite his stature could really punch. Mike Tyson said something about being hut by some heavyweights and not being phased but being hit by some LW's and being buzzed. Going much further back a bunch of old timers talk about Joe Choynski when asked about the biggest punchers they faced or have seen. Choynski was around 165, but the guy knocked a young Jack Johnson out with a single shot.
Wepner said that getting hit by Liston is like being hit with a baseball bat. I have no doubt Ruiz hit's hard but I agree with Onetime, if he was in shape he would be somewhere around the 200lbs mark. Liston at 215-220 had a 6 pack, in that kind of shape very few meaningful heavyweights today would be bigger than that. Joshua and Fury would be the only ones that come to mind. Liston's frame allows him to compete in any era IMO. I don't think he was unbeatable just that his physical assets and his own skills make him a hard fight for everybody and some guys who are clearly greater than him would be in for a rough night.
I'm not sure how a lot of todays heavyweights would deal with his (and a heap of others from earlier periods) activity level.
Then you have decent punchers with poor stoppage records, Chris Eubank is a good example of this, the man was so physically strong and punched hard but only had 23KOs in 45 wins. He went from MW to CW and gave a tough CW two wars yet I couldn't see Nigel Benn (who punched harder than Eubank) being able to move up to CW. It's strange how it works sometimes.
You also see how Tyson Fury when he rematched Wilder and used his weight and size effectively Wilder just couldn't deal with someone that big leaning on him, mauling him and pushing him back, he got tired. So effective use of weight advantages can have a major effect.
However my point was more aimed at Liston having the size, weight and strength advantages in many of his fights so of course he looks quite formidable but he would be small if around today and having to deal with being at a physical disadvantage. Too many fighters and trainers in podcasts interviews refer to size and weight as being a factor because more often than not it is. More so when you have those advantages coupled with better skill levels.
Re: Who beats Liston?
Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 15:37
If Sonny Liston was born just 26 years ago, instead of during the Great Depression in 1932 (?)
he would be about 6 ft 8"* tall in these days
and 287 lbs with a 101 inch reach probably .
and Who's gonna stop him ?
he would be about 6 ft 8"* tall in these days
and 287 lbs with a 101 inch reach probably .
and Who's gonna stop him ?