BoxRec

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

well, broken/fractured eyes kinda swell up a bit edster

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:22

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

well, broken/fractured eyes kinda swell up a bit edster

It's quite possible it wasn't a fracture, and they've said that to lend some heft to the reasons for his decision to quit.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Remember Mike Tyson's comedy plastercast on his leg after his supposed torn meniscus - the truth was Tyson was gassed and didn't have the stamina to fight on against Williams - I think it was the williams fight wasn't it?

I am not saying that the injury is fake, I am merely saying it happens a lot when a fighter's reputation takes a bashing.

Roco wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 12:47

Fightnight Scores wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 12:03 Some very weird people getting a kick out of a young prospects failure. I don't get it!

This to me is akin to a body shot that puts someone down. They are "knocked out" as they can't get up...no one calls it quitting though. They accept that the crippling body shot ended the fight. This is an accumulation of punches to his eye that are crippling enough for the man to not continue.

Dubois celarly grimaced when the sharp jab landed and there was the brief delay before he took the knee. You can only assume he felt the pain at that moment and realised he was in trouble.

I think unfortunately Dubois had been hyped way beyond his actual accomplishments, but this is hardly a new story. A big punching explosive heavyweight, with Dynamite fists, tipped to be the next big thing - until he comes unstuck.

We saw the template with Bruno, though with Bruno, the warnings signs were there when Jumbo cummings had him absolutely out on his feet.

Power is the most seductive of attributes, but as we've seen, power without the nous to deliver it, doesn't work against higher level opertors.

Unlike Gorman, Joyce wasn't going to stand playing rockem sockem robots, and see where the dice would fall, he was able to evade or ride out the big shots, and pick Dubois apart.

It's not dubois' fault, he was found wanting, and his reputation has suffered due to the manner of defeat.

It doesn't make him a coward, though you do have to question how badly he really wants it - we will see, plenty of time for redemption yet - I personally will be surprised if he is able to fully recover mentally, and also doubt he can hang at anywhere near top level - he isn't that good, and not sure he can improve much. He seems very limited in terms of his ring intelligence.

I don't see the comparison with Bruno here. Bruno never gave up, he was always pounded defenseless against the ropes. He never gave up, the referee saved him.

I'm mnaking the comparison between two fighters who in their early careers were supposedly unstoppable forces of nature who could punch holes in walls - until they faced a superior fighter with better skills who could avoid a shelling.

For Bruno that was obviously Witherspoon, for Dubois it was Joyce.

Time and time again I've watched the same scenario play out, of the supposedly unbeatable punching machine, Benn until he met Watson, McClellan until he met Benn, Liston and Foreman until they met Ali - Hamed and Barrera on and on it goes.

Devastating Power is the most overrated of attributes.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:13

I take it lunch is off then?!

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:28

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:22

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

well, broken/fractured eyes kinda swell up a bit edster

It's quite possible it wasn't a fracture, and they've said that to lend some heft to the reasons for his decision to quit.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Remember Mike Tyson's comedy plastercast on his leg after his supposed torn meniscus - the truth was Tyson was gassed and didn't have the stamina to fight on against Williams - I think it was the williams fight wasn't it?

I am not saying that the injury is fake, I am merely saying it happens a lot when a fighter's reputation takes a bashing.

Also there was a lot of conjecture after the fight as to whether there was a fracture. I read an article an hour after the fight saying he’d fractured his eye socket. The only person I’ve read confirm is Frank himself.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:28

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:22

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

well, broken/fractured eyes kinda swell up a bit edster

It's quite possible it wasn't a fracture, and they've said that to lend some heft to the reasons for his decision to quit.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Remember Mike Tyson's comedy plastercast on his leg after his supposed torn meniscus - the truth was Tyson was gassed and didn't have the stamina to fight on against Williams - I think it was the williams fight wasn't it?

I am not saying that the injury is fake, I am merely saying it happens a lot when a fighter's reputation takes a bashing.

oh , for sure, but pretty sure when an eye gets buste/broken the main visible indication is swelling , that's just what happens

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:32

Roco wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:06

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 12:47

I think unfortunately Dubois had been hyped way beyond his actual accomplishments, but this is hardly a new story. A big punching explosive heavyweight, with Dynamite fists, tipped to be the next big thing - until he comes unstuck.

We saw the template with Bruno, though with Bruno, the warnings signs were there when Jumbo cummings had him absolutely out on his feet.

Power is the most seductive of attributes, but as we've seen, power without the nous to deliver it, doesn't work against higher level opertors.

Unlike Gorman, Joyce wasn't going to stand playing rockem sockem robots, and see where the dice would fall, he was able to evade or ride out the big shots, and pick Dubois apart.

It's not dubois' fault, he was found wanting, and his reputation has suffered due to the manner of defeat.

It doesn't make him a coward, though you do have to question how badly he really wants it - we will see, plenty of time for redemption yet - I personally will be surprised if he is able to fully recover mentally, and also doubt he can hang at anywhere near top level - he isn't that good, and not sure he can improve much. He seems very limited in terms of his ring intelligence.

I don't see the comparison with Bruno here. Bruno never gave up, he was always pounded defenseless against the ropes. He never gave up, the referee saved him.

I'm mnaking the comparison between two fighters who in their early careers were supposedly unstoppable forces of nature who could punch holes in walls - until they faced a superior fighter with better skills who could avoid a shelling.

For Bruno that was obviously Witherspoon, for Dubois it was Joyce.

Time and time again I've watched the same scenario play out, of the supposedly unbeatable punching machine, Benn until he met Watson, McClellan until he met Benn, Liston and Foreman until they met Ali - Hamed and Barrera on and on it goes.

Devastating Power is the most overrated of attributes.

Off topic a bit, but that's why I think Wilder was so exciting for a while - a very rare example of an amateurish- looking gigantic puncher with a long title run. What separates him from Dubois is that he carries that crazy power all the way through the fight and has the long levers to catch you up wherever you might go next.

Dubois doesn't have either of those things, so he's going to have to learn to box an awful lot better. You are not going to make it at top level eating jabs like that.

Maybe in retrospect the fight with (old, journeyman mode, stopped by AJ in 2 version) Kevin Johnson taught us a lot more about Dubois than I realised. Never looked like unlocking him. Then Gorman showed up distracted and with the worst gameplan possible, and suddenly it seemed Dubois could be a proper boxer-puncher. Not yet anyway.

I was delighted that Joyce won, but the pelters given to Dubois has been a disgrace. He’s a nice lad and I hope he bounces back.

As engrossing as the fight was, it was an anti climax. Joyce was behind on the cards for me, showed zero urgency and couldn’t have known Dubois was about to take a knee. He ISN’T good enough to win a world title, which is why the relatively untested Dubois was fancied so heavily.

As for Daniel, sadly he couldn’t beat a plodding Joe who hasn’t become a better fighter overnight because he won.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 17:01

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:28

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:22

well, broken/fractured eyes kinda swell up a bit edster

It's quite possible it wasn't a fracture, and they've said that to lend some heft to the reasons for his decision to quit.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Remember Mike Tyson's comedy plastercast on his leg after his supposed torn meniscus - the truth was Tyson was gassed and didn't have the stamina to fight on against Williams - I think it was the williams fight wasn't it?

I am not saying that the injury is fake, I am merely saying it happens a lot when a fighter's reputation takes a bashing.

oh , for sure, but pretty sure when an eye gets buste/broken the main visible indication is swelling , that's just what happens

Yes, but dwellings happen from tissue damage too.

Dubois' swelling wasn't that dramatic, it built up over several rounds, I've seen far worse eye swellings from injuries that weren't from breaks. I don't think we can take anything away from the nature of the injury that maybe it was fractured, it's far from unequivocal.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

Bad enough all the boxers digging Dubois for quitting at least they've been there and put themselves at risk. Risible that someone who makes a grand living out of the game should try to cast doubt over a nasty injury to a young boxer. Unfortunately the wnker has probably never taken a punch in his life let alone fought to the end with a severe injury.

Yeah was far to early to say definitively that it was fractured within minutes of the fight.. definitely some bravado there ..

Having said that fracture or not... it doesn’t change the fact he couldn’t see fcuk all ... and a fracture doesn’t automatically mean it’s more painful than tissue damage only.. just sounds much more dramatic I guess .

And as DR D has just said, the fact that Eddie is trying to get one up on Frank by shitting on DDD is quite frankly sickening.

Frank was also guilty of this when POV sparked Whyte ...

Lightsoot wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 17:41 I was delighted that Joyce won, but the pelters given to Dubois has been a disgrace. He’s a nice lad and I hope he bounces back.

As engrossing as the fight was, it was an anti climax. Joyce was behind on the cards for me, showed zero urgency and couldn’t have known Dubois was about to take a knee. He ISN’T good enough to win a world title, which is why the relatively untested Dubois was fancied so heavily.

As for Daniel, sadly he couldn’t beat a plodding Joe who hasn’t become a better fighter overnight because he won.

The result flatters to deceive joyce. I totally agree about the lack of urgency, and the one paced performance.

I said to my mate I watched it with that if he wasn't careful, joyce could lose on the cards, had dubois lasted the distance joyce would have needed a knockdown to win.

Joyce is bang average, the gap between the top boys and next level is big, theres very little strength in depth at HW, which makes the likes of joyce, whyte and chisora seem far better than they are.

I'd favour usyk to beat joyce despite giving away a lot of weight, as hes a much better boxer.

dr_devious wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 18:11

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 16:11

Bad enough all the boxers digging Dubois for quitting at least they've been there and put themselves at risk. Risible that someone who makes a grand living out of the game should try to cast doubt over a nasty injury to a young boxer. Unfortunately the wnker has probably never taken a punch in his life let alone fought to the end with a severe injury.

Let's be honest, all the promoters are vindictive when they get the opportunity to put the boot in against a rivals fighter.

Lightsoot wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 17:41 I was delighted that Joyce won, but the pelters given to Dubois has been a disgrace. He’s a nice lad and I hope he bounces back.

As engrossing as the fight was, it was an anti climax. Joyce was behind on the cards for me, showed zero urgency and couldn’t have known Dubois was about to take a knee. He ISN’T good enough to win a world title, which is why the relatively untested Dubois was fancied so heavily.

As for Daniel, sadly he couldn’t beat a plodding Joe who hasn’t become a better fighter overnight because he won.

The nature of the defeat(or win)
does seem to have overshadowed the fact that Joyce wasn’t trying to knock him out. He seemed content to jab away maybe taking it to points.

Or did he know he was gonna get him in the end as Dubois was blowing out his arse early doors. Was an odd fight.

Tris always gets involved, trying to promote his new book.

tris has risen to worshipped status

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 15:49 Is anyone ballsy enough to say that Gerald McClellan quit?

He did quit. Yes. Is what it is.

DDD was happy to live the rest of his life being called a quitter.

coghaugen11 wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 18:54

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 15:49 Is anyone ballsy enough to say that Gerald McClellan quit?

He did quit. Yes. Is what it is.

DDD was happy to live the rest of his life being called a quitter.

This attitude is less than pathetic. Who do you think you are? Dubois would melt your head with a slap. The man showed intelligence looking after himself while doing his job.

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 15:49 Is anyone ballsy enough to say that Gerald McClellan quit?

Anyone who would ever say that would be a complete moron. McClellan was brain damaged and barely took another step after being counted out. He physically couldn’t continue.

Bellew was one of the first to put his boot in, but he'll never admit to turning away from Stevenson. He won my respect for getting into that ring, and lost none for what happened. He lost it for letting his ego get in the way of honesty afterwards.

Mason said he felt like quitting when he took some painful shots he wasn't used to in his first step up, but went on to give one of the bravest performances in an all-British fight. These guys are pushing themselves to face down fears we don't, rather than just not being right in the head (usually!), and we relate to that. It's why I love boxing, and Dubois-Joyce was a credit.

It's a shame Dan didn't continue, give it one last go, and then call for the doctor to stop it in the corner. Or he could've asked for the doc earlier, because it should've been stopped. And that's the crux, innit? When you're surrounded by people who care more about money and the reflected glory they're about to lose than your health, eff 'em.

If he's open to relocating to the US for a couple of years, I wonder if Breland might be a good fit? He needs a team that looks out for him. One of the things that impresses me about Dubois is that he had time for Bruno's advice, instead of dismissing it because of Frank's world-level losses. I think if he goes to the US and fights a handful of their quality B-level heavies, working with someone who gets his head and feet moving half-decently, he can still potentially win a title in the next 5 years.

coghaugen11 wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 18:54

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 15:49 Is anyone ballsy enough to say that Gerald McClellan quit?

He did quit. Yes. Is what it is.

DDD was happy to live the rest of his life being called a quitter.

The first time I watched the pre fight Benn buildup (i was too young to watch it at the time), I remember being frightened of McClellan in interviews despite knowing what happened in the fight. I think he was one of the most intimidating guys in boxing history.

I really don't think there was any quit in McClellan. He just wasn't built that way. None of us have had blood clots on our brains and had our brains bleeding while we try to use the utmost concentration and focus in a fight.

He was literally dying and collapsed moments later. We don't know what he was going through in there and it probably started many rounds before, when he was getting hit with rabbit punches. He'd been blinking for quite some time which suggests the brain bleeding was probably already occurring. He was probably in agony and suffering from some neurological impairment where he couldn't think straight or move right. If he'd quit earlier he might have been able to have a normal life and not have to spend the rest of his life blind, deaf, probably unable to wipe his ass.

He's been living like that day in day out for the best part of 25 years yet he still gets called a quitter.

Saying he quit just doesn't feel accurate when you weigh up everything.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 10:15

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑30 Nov 2020, 08:39 Former world lightweight champion John Murray lives blind in one eye.

I didn't know this

I didn’t know John Murray was ever World Champion ?

Apart from that, great piece.

When did boxing fans change?

The same as how Duran will always have to carry No Mas, AJ will always be the guy who ‘lost to that little fat dude’. It's undue pressure that affects a lot of boxers' performances. A lot of people have stopped reviewing fighters on recent form and started holding them to their worst nights. Ali would've been criticised all over the shop in today's boxing media.

Yet the UFC's still about who's on a good roll at the minute, with the predicted entertainment value of fights more important than who wins them.