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Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 18:36
by knockout
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 17:37
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 17:30
Rock Newman didn’t want to lose his golden goose . That’s why Bowe v Lewis never happened .
Bowe had perhaps the most woeful title defences of any heavyweight champion Jesse Ferguson and Michael Dokes in first two defences....
Bowe was still a Rock Newman fighter when Bowe signed in 1994 to fight Lewis. But Lewis got KOd by McCall.
That's why Bowe v Lewis never happened.
Bowe was beat-less at that time right ? ... of course he wanted Lennox and the green belt then ...
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 18:50
by Tuan_Jim
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 18:36
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 17:37
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 17:30
Rock Newman didn’t want to lose his golden goose . That’s why Bowe v Lewis never happened .
Bowe had perhaps the most woeful title defences of any heavyweight champion Jesse Ferguson and Michael Dokes in first two defences....
Bowe was still a Rock Newman fighter when Bowe signed in 1994 to fight Lewis. But Lewis got KOd by McCall.
That's why Bowe v Lewis never happened.
Bowe was beat-less at that time right ? ... of course he wanted Lennox and the green belt then ...
I can't decipher your point here but McCall knocking out Lewis knocked out the Bowe vs Lewis fight which both had signed for.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 18:55
by knockout
My point was he avoided Lennox until he had ran out of other opportunities it appears
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 19:53
by Covfefe
No he wasn’t.
Silly thread.
He’s rated perfectly in my opinion.
Not the best ever but definitely amongst the elite of the heavies. 6-10 for me.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:12
by Twinkle Toes
Lewis overrated? - The answer is no.
He beat everyone he fought, yes he got beat twice but avenged both losses and in style. He could be frustrating, but he was a quality fighter.
Mike Tyson overrated is a better discussion.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:14
by Covfefe
Twinkle Toes wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:12
Lewis overrated? - The answer is no.
He beat everyone he fought, yes he got beat twice but avenged both losses and in style. He could be frustrating, but he was a quality fighter.
Mike Tyson overrated is a better discussion.
I think it’s not questionable that people overrate Tyson. Not that he wasn’t a great fighter cause he was, it’s just people talk about him like he was always the killer destroying scared fighters in the 80s.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:16
by DrDuke
Covfefe wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:14
Twinkle Toes wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:12
Lewis overrated? - The answer is no.
He beat everyone he fought, yes he got beat twice but avenged both losses and in style. He could be frustrating, but he was a quality fighter.
Mike Tyson overrated is a better discussion.
I think it’s not questionable that people overrate Tyson. Not that he wasn’t a great fighter cause he was, it’s just people talk about him like he was always the killer destroying scared fighters in the 80s.
Yeah, Tyson is overrated for sure.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:25
by Roco
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 16:32
Tough call . The psychological advantage Lennox had going in having already stopped Bowe could be deciding factor. Then again it may Depends when it took place .... with Pepe in his corner or with Steward .
That didn't work out too great for Luis Gonzalez.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:41
by deadpan
He was life-and-death with an already tarnished Mercer, kayoed by two fighters who were both world level mediocrity, and then was frightened to hit one whilst they were having a breakdown in front of him in the rematch, plus he was lucky to get the nod in the Evander fight 2 (a Holyfield on the slide).
He was frequently extremely frustrating to watch (Tucker, Jackson, Mavrovic, Akinwande, Tua), rather safety first against a clearly depleted Tyson and was certainly not unlucky against Bruno and Vitali. He was bad ass against Ruddock, Botha and Golota (all who fell short at the top level), shaky but triumphant against the limited Shannon Briggs and did a number on the emphatically exposed Grant.
So I would say he's over rated.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:46
by Grilling Machine
DrDuke wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:16Yeah, Tyson is overrated for sure.
Tyson always comes with that proviso that he was overrated in terms of achievements, but not early potential. You can rate him as one of the most gifted heavies alongside Ali, with neither in your top 5.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 20:57
by Tuan_Jim
Roco wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:25
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 16:32
Tough call . The psychological advantage Lennox had going in having already stopped Bowe could be deciding factor. Then again it may Depends when it took place .... with Pepe in his corner or with Steward .
That didn't work out too great for Luis Gonzalez.
Exactly. JLG gave Bowe an actual beating, unlike Lennox. Knocked Bowe down four times. That was sufficient to focus Bowe and bring out the most dangerous version of him when they fought again in 95. Bowe hated Gonzalez and the beating was horrifying.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 12 Dec 2020, 21:21
by oogiebe
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:57
Roco wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:25
knockout wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 16:32
Tough call . The psychological advantage Lennox had going in having already stopped Bowe could be deciding factor. Then again it may Depends when it took place .... with Pepe in his corner or with Steward .
That didn't work out too great for Luis Gonzalez.
Exactly. JLG gave Bowe an actual beating, unlike Lennox. Knocked Bowe down four times. That was sufficient to focus Bowe and bring out the most dangerous version of him when they fought again in 95. Bowe hated Gonzalez and the beating was horrifying.
Well then, that cinches it. Gonzalez is better than Lewis.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 03:55
by coghaugen11
Tyson is the most underrated. By far.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 04:49
by DrDuke
coghaugen11 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 03:55
Tyson is the most underrated. By far.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 07:04
by JC
I think Lewis was a little underrated during in his career. And is now is becoming a little overrated with the passing of time.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 07:08
by magnus
Lennox was one of my two favourite boxers as a kid (Nigel Benn the second), but I like to think I'm not overly rose-tinted.
Yes, he got splattered by two fringe/top ten heavys (depending on your viewpoint). The first defeat helped mould him into the fighter he became, leading to him changing trainers. The Steward era Lewis was a different animal to the pre-McCall one, and infinitely better.
If the judging was right Tyson Fury would have had an early career loss, against Big John McD, but so what? He learnt from the first fight, improved, and dominated the rematch.
The Rahman defeat certainly looked like the result of poor preparation - the rematch certainly suggested that was the case. That said, you have to consider that defeat when looking at his standing with the greats - would Ali or Louis be flattened by their Rahman? Probably not.
As for the boring claims - seriously? He could be conservative at times (I would have liked to see him push a bit harder in the later rounds against Tua for example), but the only time I recall being properly bored was the Mavrovic fight. The Akinwande fight had the potential to make the Johnny Nelson Hall of Fame I admit, but luckily the ref stepped in to save us from further punishment.
If you genuinely think Lewis was a boring fighter I would take a few minutes to watch the following fights on YouTube: Ruddock, Bruno, Rahman I & II, Morrison, Briggs, Golota, Grant, Mason, McCory, Biggs.
Then I'd take a bit longer and watch the Mercer fight.
I did have a point when I started this post, but have since forgotten what that was.
Anyway, Lennox Lewis top ten in all time heavyweight list, probably the lower part of the 6-10 region.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 08:23
by TheGman
oogiebe wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 21:21
Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:57
Roco wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 20:25
That didn't work out too great for Luis Gonzalez.
Exactly. JLG gave Bowe an actual beating, unlike Lennox. Knocked Bowe down four times. That was sufficient to focus Bowe and bring out the most dangerous version of him when they fought again in 95. Bowe hated Gonzalez and the beating was horrifying.
Well then, that cinches it. Gonzalez is better than Lewis.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 08:41
by TheGman
As a fighter you can only be as good as the opponents around you,Mike Tyson was in a bad era but because of hsi style he was exciting to watch and brought the eyes to the heavyweight division,them eyes stsyed on the heavyweight division till the klitschko's bored the life out of everyone and ppl including HBO turned their back on the heavyweights.
Lennox Lewis beat everyone who was around at the time he was champion apart from Bowe,Lewis lost to McCall which put the boot into Bowe vs Lewis then Bowe wasnt the Bowe thst beat Evander Holyfield,so Bowe declined where as Lewis improved.
Looking back at certain fights like LL vs Tommy Morrison or LL vs Golota or LL vs Michael Grant these fights showed Lewis at his best but yes he had some stinkers too but Lewis is top 7 heavyweight OAT imo.
Every heavyweight has had stinkers,Ali vs Chuck Wepner,Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas and Danny Williams,Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johansson,George Forman vs Jimmy Young and Axel Shultz,Wlad klitsch vs Brewster,Ross Purrity, Vitali vs Chris Byrd the difference between all these is LL avenge his dog
losses.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 08:42
by banjo
I disagree, I think he was rated fine.
Nobody regards him as the best of all time but he was a world class fighter who defeated everyone he faced and avenged his losses.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 08:54
by TheGman
Covfefe wrote: ↑12 Dec 2020, 19:53
No he wasn’t.
Silly thread.
He’s rated perfectly in my opinion.
Not the best ever but definitely amongst the elite of the heavies. 6-10 for me.
Me too
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 08:55
by margaret thatcher
ive seen it said quite a lot actually that he is the best ever, at least head to head
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 09:01
by TheGman
magnus wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 07:08
Lennox was one of my two favourite boxers as a kid (Nigel Benn the second), but I like to think I'm not overly rose-tinted.
Yes, he got splattered by two fringe/top ten heavys (depending on your viewpoint). The first defeat helped mould him into the fighter he became, leading to him changing trainers. The Steward era Lewis was a different animal to the pre-McCall one, and infinitely better.
If the judging was right Tyson Fury would have had an early career loss, against Big John McD, but so what? He learnt from the first fight, improved, and dominated the rematch.
The Rahman defeat certainly looked like the result of poor preparation - the rematch certainly suggested that was the case. That said, you have to consider that defeat when looking at his standing with the greats - would Ali or Louis be flattened by their Rahman? Probably not.
As for the boring claims - seriously? He could be conservative at times (I would have liked to see him push a bit harder in the later rounds against Tua for example), but the only time I recall being properly bored was the Mavrovic fight. The Akinwande fight had the potential to make the Johnny Nelson Hall of Fame I admit, but luckily the ref stepped in to save us from further punishment.
If you genuinely think Lewis was a boring fighter I would take a few minutes to watch the following fights on YouTube: Ruddock, Bruno, Rahman I & II, Morrison, Briggs, Golota, Grant, Mason, McCory, Biggs.
Then I'd take a bit longer and watch the Mercer fight.
I did have a point when I started this post, but have since forgotten what that was.
Anyway, Lennox Lewis top ten in all time heavyweight list, probably the lower part of the 6-10 region.
Add the mike weaver,Justin Fortune,Derek "sweet D" Williams fights aswell,the thing is with LL is he fought nearly every fight at his pace because he was that good,he controlled every fight,the only fight I can think of where he didnt was the Shannon Briggs fight but he controlled it by the end of the fight. I was watching AJ last night and just thought "Imagine what a half decent LL would of done to AJ"
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 09:02
by TheGman
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 08:55
ive seen it said quite a lot actually that he is the best ever, at least head to head
Imo he would of given any heavyweight from any era a good fight,not saying he would of beaten them all but he would of gave them all a problem.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 09:03
by Jimmy2020
banjo wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 08:42
I disagree, I think he was rated fine.
Nobody regards him as the best of all time but he was a world class fighter who defeated everyone he faced and avenged his losses.
This is what I think too.
P.s. Would have liked to see him fight Foreman.
Re: Lennox was overrated
Posted: 13 Dec 2020, 10:00
by coghaugen11
DrDuke wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 04:49
coghaugen11 wrote: ↑13 Dec 2020, 03:55
Tyson is the most underrated. By far.
Problem mate?
losses.