BoxRec

I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 10:53 boo hoo. there is always an excuse for your guy. Your guy almost always wasn't at his best when he lost. Never occurs to ou that his opponent is not always not as his best.
Your comment about the slip and Duran's confidence is stupid. He would have whined about it if it had happened in the first fight.

You are so blind to analyze a fight? Boxing is not always physical, but also the mental aspect is important.

You are just frustrated because you know that Sugar Ray never beat Duran at his very best. That De Jesus win over Duran was more legit.

In the first fight, Duran did not need that confidence booster. He had Ray in trouble in a couple of times. He knew that he was going to win, regardless.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

Pound per pound all-time? Yes.
At lightweight all-time rankings? No.
Both at the top all-time 100 p4p greats? No.

Duran was the ONLY MAN to beat De Jesus at lightweight.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 14:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 10:53 boo hoo. there is always an excuse for your guy. Your guy almost always wasn't at his best when he lost. Never occurs to ou that his opponent is not always not as his best.
Your comment about the slip and Duran's confidence is stupid. He would have whined about it if it had happened in the first fight.

You are so blind to analyze a fight? Boxing is not always physical, but also the mental aspect is important.

You are just frustrated because you know that Sugar Ray never beat Duran at his very best. That De Jesus win over Duran was more legit.

In the first fight, Duran did not need that confidence booster. He had Ray in trouble in a couple of times. He knew that he was going to win, regardless.

I think I got it.
So in the rematch when Leonard slipped, Duran argued that it should have been a knockdown. This somehow proves that Duran was not confident; therefore not at his best. He needed a bad call by the official Therefore, Duran somehow was better than Leonard.
Duran was also not at this best in 17 other fights in which he lost.
However, every time that Duran won a fight, his opponent was at his best.

Got it. Makes total sense.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

I don't know. When comparing the career's of two fighters, you have to take into consideration if either ever "faked the funk". As elmer pointed out, De La hoya clearly did that when he fought Hopkins.

Did DeJesus ever "fake the funk" ? That is the big question.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:19

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

I don't know. When comparing the career's of two fighters, you have to take into consideration if either ever "faked the funk". As elmer pointed out, De La hoya clearly did that when he fought Hopkins.

Did DeJesus ever "fake the funk" ? That is the big question.

What do you mean by "fake the funk" if I had to guess it sounds you're implying De La Hoya took a dive against Hopkins.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 14:19

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

Pound per pound all-time? Yes.
At lightweight all-time rankings? No.
Both at the top all-time 100 p4p greats? No.

Neither are Top 100 P4P.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:24

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 14:19

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

Pound per pound all-time? Yes.
At lightweight all-time rankings? No.
Both at the top all-time 100 p4p greats? No.

Neither are Top 100 P4P.

Exactly! You and everybody in here at least got that right

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:19

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 12:10 I'm sure we can all agree that delahoya was greater than dejesus.

I don't know. When comparing the career's of two fighters, you have to take into consideration if either ever "faked the funk". As elmer pointed out, De La hoya clearly did that when he fought Hopkins.

Did DeJesus ever "fake the funk" ? That is the big question.

What do you mean by "fake the funk" if I had to guess it sounds you're implying De La Hoya took a dive against Hopkins.

Yes he did. It cannot be seen clearer than that.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:16

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 14:17

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 10:53 boo hoo. there is always an excuse for your guy. Your guy almost always wasn't at his best when he lost. Never occurs to ou that his opponent is not always not as his best.
Your comment about the slip and Duran's confidence is stupid. He would have whined about it if it had happened in the first fight.

You are so blind to analyze a fight? Boxing is not always physical, but also the mental aspect is important.

You are just frustrated because you know that Sugar Ray never beat Duran at his very best. That De Jesus win over Duran was more legit.

In the first fight, Duran did not need that confidence booster. He had Ray in trouble in a couple of times. He knew that he was going to win, regardless.

I think I got it.
So in the rematch when Leonard slipped, Duran argued that it should have been a knockdown. This somehow proves that Duran was not confident; therefore not at his best. He needed a bad call by the official Therefore, Duran somehow was better than Leonard.
Duran was also not at this best in 17 other fights in which he lost.
However, every time that Duran won a fight, his opponent was at his best.

Got it. Makes total sense.

Too bad that it turned out like that, buddy.

Duran in his prime, and at his very best, whupped Sugar Ray.

Sugar Ray never did that against Duran.

De Jesus did. He is THE ONLY MAN that can brag about it. See the point?

Leonard had the chance to beat him in Montreal, being Duran at his top of his game. He didn't. End of story.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:55

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:19

I don't know. When comparing the career's of two fighters, you have to take into consideration if either ever "faked the funk". As elmer pointed out, De La hoya clearly did that when he fought Hopkins.

Did DeJesus ever "fake the funk" ? That is the big question.

What do you mean by "fake the funk" if I had to guess it sounds you're implying De La Hoya took a dive against Hopkins.

Yes he did. It cannot be seen clearer than that.

Nah he didn't take a dive.

Why would the guy with way, way, way more money than his opponent take a dive? Doesn't make sense on any level. The punch didn't look spectacular, but it got him on that vulnerable spot as he was drawing a breath probably, and you got the result you got.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:16

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 14:17

You are so blind to analyze a fight? Boxing is not always physical, but also the mental aspect is important.

You are just frustrated because you know that Sugar Ray never beat Duran at his very best. That De Jesus win over Duran was more legit.

In the first fight, Duran did not need that confidence booster. He had Ray in trouble in a couple of times. He knew that he was going to win, regardless.

I think I got it.
So in the rematch when Leonard slipped, Duran argued that it should have been a knockdown. This somehow proves that Duran was not confident; therefore not at his best. He needed a bad call by the official Therefore, Duran somehow was better than Leonard.
Duran was also not at this best in 17 other fights in which he lost.
However, every time that Duran won a fight, his opponent was at his best.

Got it. Makes total sense.

Too bad that it turned out like that, buddy.

Duran in his prime, and at his very best, whupped Sugar Ray.

Sugar Ray never did that against Duran.

De Jesus did. He is THE ONLY MAN that can brag about it. See the point?

Leonard had the chance to beat him in Montreal, being Duran at his top of his game. He didn't. End of story.

Their rematch was 6 months after the 1st fight right?

So yeah...Leonard did do that.

If Duran's only excuse in the rematch is "I wasn't prepared" I mean. That's not an excuse. That means you're not the better fighter. Discipline is part of the game, and if the other guy was more prepared than you then he was better than you. I didn't train isn't an excuse that you should give anybody.

That's basically like saying "I would've won if he didn't hit me more"

If you go far enough back on this thread, elmer used the unique phrase "fake the funk". (Which actually sounds kind of cool).

However, he means that a guy threw the fight.

elmer seriously believes DLH threw the fight. You can't make this stuff up.
He doesn't like De La Hoya or Leonard. There he comes up with crap against them.
He worships Duran, so there is always an excuse for why he wasn't at this best when he lost.
Never an excuse for the other guy when Duran won. Duran just "whupped him. Even if elmer himself only had Duran up by 3 points. Not winning a decision in a tough competitive fight. It was a "whupping".

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 16:26

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:55

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:23

What do you mean by "fake the funk" if I had to guess it sounds you're implying De La Hoya took a dive against Hopkins.

Yes he did. It cannot be seen clearer than that.

Nah he didn't take a dive.

Why would the guy with way, way, way more money than his opponent take a dive? Doesn't make sense on any level. The punch didn't look spectacular, but it got him on that vulnerable spot as he was drawing a breath probably, and you got the result you got.

Oscar took a dive.....Edive.....End of story.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 16:27

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:59

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:16
I think I got it.
So in the rematch when Leonard slipped, Duran argued that it should have been a knockdown. This somehow proves that Duran was not confident; therefore not at his best. He needed a bad call by the official Therefore, Duran somehow was better than Leonard.
Duran was also not at this best in 17 other fights in which he lost.
However, every time that Duran won a fight, his opponent was at his best.

Got it. Makes total sense.

Too bad that it turned out like that, buddy.

Duran in his prime, and at his very best, whupped Sugar Ray.

Sugar Ray never did that against Duran.

De Jesus did. He is THE ONLY MAN that can brag about it. See the point?

Leonard had the chance to beat him in Montreal, being Duran at his top of his game. He didn't. End of story.

Their rematch was 6 months after the 1st fight right?

So yeah...Leonard did do that.

If Duran's only excuse in the rematch is "I wasn't prepared" I mean. That's not an excuse. That means you're not the better fighter. Discipline is part of the game, and if the other guy was more prepared than you then he was better than you. I didn't train isn't an excuse that you should give anybody.

That's basically like saying "I would've won if he didn't hit me more"

Duran management team asked for more time. He was not ready and was not losing weight. He came in weight-weight-drained. He was not strong enough like he was in Montreal and it showed.

And that is a legitimate excuse for Duran. You got to give him the benefit of the doubt. Why they did not give him the extension time to train properly? It was Duran's management team that TOOK THE BAIT. It worked. It was $8 million dollars that they probably would never see again. And of course, they never saw that kind of money ever again. If you want to say that it was Duran's irresponsability that he did not took care of himself then it was his fault, not Sugar Ray's. But that only could have been done because Sugar Ray was the man with the clout. He had the leverage. He had the connections. He is America's darling. He can dictate. Something that Esteban De Jesus could not do. Esteban did not had it like that.

When Duran lost to De Jesus, Duran was active. He won his next fight after the Ken Buchanan title win by knockout. Then he fought against De Jesus and Esteban beat him. No excuses! But if Sugar Ray would have beaten an active Duran before the rematch then it would have been LEGIT. The PROBLEM with you and guys like Ambling Alp is that you guys know that it happened like that. De Jesus win over Duran is MORE LEGIT than Sugar Ray's.

Not only Sugar Ray was a great strategist inside the ring. But he was a great one outside of it. He watched tapes. Asked for rematch quickly and had the leeway. Asked for a bigger ring. He knew that Duran was not gonna be ready for the fight. And switched fighting ways by studying the Edwin Viruet. My question is if people say that he is so great, why he had to have all these stipulations to beat a guy? Why he did not beat him at the other guy's best. It took away the sporstmanship.

If he was really the great fighter that you guys claim, why he never gave Roberto THE TIME that he needed it to be in shape. It was all to prop his ego and American propaganda. Duran should not win. It was unacceptable that he beat our American darling. We got to get the glory back. He got the glory back. But Sugar Ray KNEW it was not LEGIT like De Jesus.

Duran had the same exact amount of time to prepare for the rematch that Leonard did. There are no excuses. He took the fight, and he lost. Period.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 00:55

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 16:26

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 15:55

Yes he did. It cannot be seen clearer than that.

Nah he didn't take a dive.

Why would the guy with way, way, way more money than his opponent take a dive? Doesn't make sense on any level. The punch didn't look spectacular, but it got him on that vulnerable spot as he was drawing a breath probably, and you got the result you got.

Oscar took a dive.....Edive.....End of story.

Doesn't make sense on any level that he would've done that.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 04:10 Duran had the same exact amount of time to prepare for the rematch that Leonard did. There are no excuses. He took the fight, and he lost. Period.

Duran did not even know that there was an immediate rematch. His management team took the fight and THE BAIT which was $8 million dollars that they probably won't see again. They were not looking for Duran's interest but their own.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 04:12

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 00:55

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Apr 2021, 16:26

Nah he didn't take a dive.

Why would the guy with way, way, way more money than his opponent take a dive? Doesn't make sense on any level. The punch didn't look spectacular, but it got him on that vulnerable spot as he was drawing a breath probably, and you got the result you got.

Oscar took a dive.....Edive.....End of story.

Doesn't make sense on any level that he would've done that.

Believe it or not, Oscar did it. End of story.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 21:47

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 04:12

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 00:55

Oscar took a dive.....Edive.....End of story.

Doesn't make sense on any level that he would've done that.

Believe it or not, Oscar did it. End of story.

LMFAO!

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 21:47

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 04:12

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 00:55

Oscar took a dive.....Edive.....End of story.

Doesn't make sense on any level that he would've done that.

Believe it or not, Oscar did it. End of story.

It's not the end of story. You're basing that on nothing at all except that you'd LIKE to believe it.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 21:46

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Apr 2021, 04:10 Duran had the same exact amount of time to prepare for the rematch that Leonard did. There are no excuses. He took the fight, and he lost. Period.

Duran did not even know that there was an immediate rematch. His management team took the fight and THE BAIT which was $8 million dollars that they probably won't see again. They were not looking for Duran's interest but their own.

I love Duran. I'm a much bigger fan of Duran than I am of Leonard. Not being prepared for a big fight is his own fault. It doesn't take away from Leonard's achievement 1 single bit.

Reasonable minds can disagree. That being said...

Oscar's loss to Hopkins wasn't a tank job and the outcome was no surprise. De La Hoya's two prior fights were a loss to Mosley and a gift decision over Sturm. Fighting an all time great at 160 was a bridge too far for Oscar.

Duran beat Leonard in the first fight, but Leonard broke Duran in the second fight. I'm a bigger fan of Roberto's than I am of Sugar Ray's, but making Duran quit was more astonishing that what the latter accomplished in Montreal.

An eight million dollar payday in '80 would be the equivalent of over 27 million today. Duran's handlers got him a huge amount of money to fight a guy he'd already defeated. He wasn't going to draw nearly that much against anyone else at the time. I fail to see how that's anything but effective management.

How the hell did we get from DeJesus to Duran, Leonard, and De La Hoya ? Haven't seen a credible argument yet for Esteban being a top 20 LW.