BoxRec

Tarquin Tarpaulin IV wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 08:28 Angelo Dundee, when some wag suggested that anybody could coach the then Cassius Clay, said something along the lines of 'I knew that to get the best out of him I had to listen'.

I've heard it said Dundee didn't train him, was more a motivator. Great cornerman.
As said earlier, Dean Powell did a proper apprenticeship and knew the game inside out. Took him longer than 24 years of age to get there, though.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 07:52

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 09:05 in hindsight backing Wilder up was a pretty damn obvious gameplan, given his awful footwork, balance and complete inability to box or counter off the back foot (or at least if he ever threw a crisp accurate counter I never saw it), and the fact that his right hand is so dependent on his big lunging step forward

Ive never seen a more inept boxer at his level.

I remember saying years ago that Wilder wouldn’t be in the top 100 current heavies if he had a normal right hand I was probably a bit harsh, but not that far off.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 07:52

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 09:05 in hindsight backing Wilder up was a pretty damn obvious gameplan, given his awful footwork, balance and complete inability to box or counter off the back foot (or at least if he ever threw a crisp accurate counter I never saw it), and the fact that his right hand is so dependent on his big lunging step forward

Ive never seen a more inept boxer at his level.

yeah and he looked way (even) worse than ever with Fury backing him up in the second fight, his footwork and balance were just abysmal, novice-level, like someone who learned to box just hitting pads and bags and never ever doing any footwork drills.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 08:58

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 07:52

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 09:05 in hindsight backing Wilder up was a pretty damn obvious gameplan, given his awful footwork, balance and complete inability to box or counter off the back foot (or at least if he ever threw a crisp accurate counter I never saw it), and the fact that his right hand is so dependent on his big lunging step forward

Ive never seen a more inept boxer at his level.

yeah and he looked way (even) worse than ever with Fury backing him up in the second fight, his footwork and balance were just abysmal, novice-level, like someone who learned to box just hitting pads and bags and never ever doing any footwork drills.

Seems to me from the first day in the gym him and his team fell in love with the right hand power and nothing else.

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 08:46

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 07:52

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 09:05 in hindsight backing Wilder up was a pretty damn obvious gameplan, given his awful footwork, balance and complete inability to box or counter off the back foot (or at least if he ever threw a crisp accurate counter I never saw it), and the fact that his right hand is so dependent on his big lunging step forward

Ive never seen a more inept boxer at his level.

I remember saying years ago that Wilder wouldn’t be in the top 100 current heavies if he had a normal right hand I was probably a bit harsh, but not that far off.

That’s true I think mate. He’s terrible without that punch.

Reserving judgement on Davison until after the Ramirez-Taylor fight as it's his first proper fight with both fighters in similar condition and of similar ability IMO. Be interesting to see how it unfolds.

I've watched a few of those 'Corner Cam' things on the BT YouTube page and he does seem very cautious. Constantly telling his fighters 'not to get greedy' whenever they box on the front foot.

Coco wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 10:45

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:51

mickey1975 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 04:36 He's done James English now.... I simply don't believe a non fighter in his 20's can teach these lads anything! Fury, BJS, Taylor!! Come on lads, literally nothing he can do but be a cheerleader.

who is a non fighter?

I think he means Davison.

Using the example of Powell, one of the best recent non fighting trainers, he still did a much longer apprenticeship than the likes of Davison, McGuigan, Booth too

Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:32

Coco wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 10:45

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:51

who is a non fighter?

I think he means Davison.

Using the example of Powell, one of the best recent non fighting trainers, he still did a much longer apprenticeship than the likes of Davison, McGuigan, Booth too

Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

So have I, at a very low level, I doubt he's teaching Taylor much.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:36

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:32

Coco wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 10:45

I think he means Davison.

Using the example of Powell, one of the best recent non fighting trainers, he still did a much longer apprenticeship than the likes of Davison, McGuigan, Booth too

Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

So have I, at a very low level, I doubt he's teaching Taylor much.

This goes back to the other thread, so does a coach have to ‘teach’ an established fighter things? Or just be someone they feel at ease with in the corner, pointing out if their opponent is open to certain punches etc. In that case does it matter how experienced someone is?

Controversial wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 15:00

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:36

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:32
Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

So have I, at a very low level, I doubt he's teaching Taylor much.

This goes back to the other thread, so does a coach have to ‘teach’ an established fighter things? Or just be someone they feel at ease with in the corner, pointing out if their opponent is open to certain punches etc. In that case does it matter how experienced someone is?

I understand your point. I just think, at this, the very highest level, he's not qualified. No disrespect to the guy.

He's a clever man and has soaked up loads of knowledge from his time with Tyson in Vegas which could be invaluable, where to train, live, eat etc so yes, I suppose he does have experience!

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:32

Coco wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 10:45

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:51

who is a non fighter?

I think he means Davison.

Using the example of Powell, one of the best recent non fighting trainers, he still did a much longer apprenticeship than the likes of Davison, McGuigan, Booth too

Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

I don't know but I bet you have got a few vids!

Controversial wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 15:00

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:36

ERIC GUY wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:32
Ahh got. But Ben Davidson has boxed

So have I, at a very low level, I doubt he's teaching Taylor much.

This goes back to the other thread, so does a coach have to ‘teach’ an established fighter things? Or just be someone they feel at ease with in the corner, pointing out if their opponent is open to certain punches etc. In that case does it matter how experienced someone is?

A good coach can fix errors in a fighters learned behaviour, help to bring strategies for particular opponents, and work on improving specific areas of a fighters skillset through training drills.

You're not going to be able to do that without insights gained from experience.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 16:45

Controversial wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 15:00

mickey1975 wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 13:36
So have I, at a very low level, I doubt he's teaching Taylor much.

This goes back to the other thread, so does a coach have to ‘teach’ an established fighter things? Or just be someone they feel at ease with in the corner, pointing out if their opponent is open to certain punches etc. In that case does it matter how experienced someone is?

A good coach can fix errors in a fighters learned behaviour, help to bring strategies for particular opponents, and work on improving specific areas of a fighters skillset through training drills.

You're not going to be able to do that without insights gained from experience.

Yeah of course in an ideal situation but it's still a grey area. You could be the most experienced coach in the world, if you have a clash of personalities with a fighter then it's not going to work. Yet a much less experienced coach might work brilliantly with the same fighter and get a lot more from them. So in that instance experience means little. Ronnie Davies had practically zero input mid-round with Eubank and Eubank done what he wanted anyway but it obviously worked for them. Would Eubank have done better under Steward, maybe not as I doubt Steward would've put up with his nonsense. It has to be a two way street.

I wonder how many of Mike Tysons coaches got his respect and read him the riot act later on in his career and got Tyson doing what they wanted him to do? Or did they just let Tyson dictate training and they just kept quiet because he was paying them a load of money and they didn't want the confrontation with him.

Does,t matter , if youv've boxed or not ,has long as you have the eye ,,, NO ONE , knows enough to take a boxer 5 days a week and teach them something everyday ,, Fury Canelo , Saunders , and most others already know what to do and how to do it , and thats come from years and years of learning under various trainers .

What a trainer has to do with these guys is have what i call THE EYE ,,,, thats the eye to spot whenever a fighter is doing something wrong and tell him to correct it , the eye on knowing how to beat an opponent and what to beat them with , the eye on spotting and knowing how that paticular boxer should fight , wether or not what he's doing suits him and his style .

2 examples i'll give , One is BJS ,,, regardless off what you think of him ,, he boxed really well in that fight i watched it again yesterday , , Billy was doing really well , abeit just does'nt have the power , still thats another story , BUT lets talk about the punch , that punch that got him was when Billy WAS BENDING OVER AT THE WASTE in front of him , now that was really a silly thing to do against Canelo , when Canelos favorute punch is the upercut ,, Now the thing is Canelo timed him , Billy was doing it a lot ,, now i don't believe he just developed that move /habit whatever you want to call it , mid fight ,, i will bet money he was doing it before ,,, bad habit developed there ,, , i'm not blaming Tibbs , but that was a habt and it was a bad habit that cost him dearly , probably developed over time and he moves trainers that often , perhaps they hav'nt spotted it or have and he took no notice ,, but its a trainers job to spot it and fix it ,, like i said not blaming tibbs , bad habits are hard to get a fighter out of ,,, this is what makes a good trainer having the eye to spot them developing and putting a stop to it ,, and for that you need time , which is why a boxer should'nt keep moving trainers , you don't need to be a good fighter or even a fighter to spot these things , just have the eye .

Eubank and RJJ , Now heres an interesting one , Roy , well he was one of the greats and certainly one of my favorites , but he takes on CEJ and for my money has took him backwards ,, Eubanks last fight , was him being a replica of Jones , Roy obviously is trying to teach him to be another RJJ instead of looking at Eubanks attributes and enhancing them remanes to be seen but i doubt it will work ,, RJJ had a skill set you can't replicate , you can try but your nevver gonna be a RJJ , for me a Reyneso typw trainer would of suited Eubanks , all about having the eye , and knowing which way to go , thats why great boxers don't always make great trainers , a great trainer does'nt train everyone like he fought . ..

Then theres Davidson , he was'nt brought in to teach Tyson , like i said you would'nt have enough knoledge ,, what sugar hill done was recognised that Tyson was fighting the wrong way , no where near aggressive enough for a guy his size . He channelled his size into agresion and got the results ,, Ben was trying to be too cute and technical ,, i r believe that was to hide his lack of knoledge and experience .

Theres other things that come into it ,, example , Saunders once again ,,, there was a lot of hool a boo about the ring size ,,, but to me that ring looked spongy , and how spongy was more important than size ,, , then theres something has soon has they came out i went what the FOOOOOK , said to the guys i watched it with , , what the fooook they let Saunders wear them gloves for ,, for fook sake bright florescent gloves ,, i would NEVER of accepted them , at that level you don't give them a minus of a % ,,, and gloves you can see coming from a mile away is enough at that level , where you look for a shrug of the shoulder to see a move , them things telagraph ,,, notice Canelo did'nt wear bright gloves .

Its all about having the eye ,, a GOOD trainer with the eye , will walk past his novice and say ,, correct your feet son , , then turn to another and say dropping your right when you throw your jab , then to another , drop the knee to slip that one ,,, al whilst just walking across the gym to grab some mitts ,, he would see and spot mistakes and correct them ..

A Good trainer is the boss , and relizes he's not there to pat them on the back about what they do good ,, mom and dad and theres fans can do that ,, he's there to spot and rectify there mistakes , and you can't do that if your not the boss ,,, and i'm with Mick on this one for me Benn Davidson has not got trhe EYE , he has studied and does know boxing but the eye takes time to develop , and to have the eye you have to be confident , and that means you have to be the boss ,, at the moment he's the knoladgable mate

Knowing what the injury turned out to be and watching the replay on DAZN very closely, that eye was fine and boom black right after that perfect uppercut, well I’m glad they pulled Billy Joe out. I don’t like him really but they done the right thing by him as a corner. He wouldn’t have won and the money was in the bank. I personally don’t need to see a man go blind in the ring to respect them as a warrior. BJS actually had a bit of a go and didn’t show out badly even with that cracked eye socket. He’s fought all over the world and made millions, fair play to him.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 20:32 Knowing what the injury turned out to be and watching the replay on DAZN very closely, that eye was fine and boom black right after that perfect uppercut, well I’m glad they pulled Billy Joe out. I don’t like him really but they done the right thing by him as a corner. He wouldn’t have won and the money was in the bank. I personally don’t need to see a man go blind in the ring to respect them as a warrior. BJS actually had a bit of a go and didn’t show out badly even with that cracked eye socket. He’s fought all over the world and made millions, fair play to him.

Agree i was very critical of Saunders on the day ,, but at first it did'nt look bad and then i did'nt see it they had the endswell on it ,,, being that close they obviously seen the damage ,, but i still don't think that Tibbs was sure , he never just looked and stopped it , he was asking Billy questions , which i gather were do you want to go on ,,,, Regardless it was a good stoppage , don't like Saunders , but would'nt want to see him blind just to amuse me for an hour or so

high tower 1 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:55At any trade I doubt you’ve mastered it in your 20s. Agreed on the golden oldies being past it but do you not think you need over a certain amount of experience ?

'Course you do, but there's nothing tying it to age beyond a certain point. You can be in your 50s and pretty clueless, y'know. Versus in your 20s and really committed to trying to improve your understanding.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 16:45A good coach can fix errors in a fighters learned behaviour, help to bring strategies for particular opponents, and work on improving specific areas of a fighters skillset through training drills.

I think it's often enough to be an echo, just calling out mistakes someone already knows they're making, helping to steer them away from complacency. If a boxer's great anyway, that little voice is their best aid in my book. I'd put motivational ability above most qualities when talent's a given.

I think a lot of ex-pros are good at training those who can adapt to their teachings, but then sometimes hopeless with those who can't. It's understandable.

ben davison.......loads of uk coaches who could do just a good or better job

granted, he is an expert at rubbing his hands through his hair

Bit too focused on the head and shoulders.

Controversial wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 17:39 I wonder how many of Mike Tysons coaches got his respect and read him the riot act later on in his career and got Tyson doing what they wanted him to do? Or did they just let Tyson dictate training and they just kept quiet because he was paying them a load of money and they didn't want the confrontation with him.

i remember reading an interview with jeff fenech where he said towards the end, tyson was so unfit they only did one minute rounds on the pads

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 20:32 Knowing what the injury turned out to be and watching the replay on DAZN very closely, that eye was fine and boom black right after that perfect uppercut, well I’m glad they pulled Billy Joe out. I don’t like him really but they done the right thing by him as a corner. He wouldn’t have won and the money was in the bank. I personally don’t need to see a man go blind in the ring to respect them as a warrior. BJS actually had a bit of a go and didn’t show out badly even with that cracked eye socket. He’s fought all over the world and made millions, fair play to him.

Grilling Machine wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 22:43

high tower 1 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:55At any trade I doubt you’ve mastered it in your 20s. Agreed on the golden oldies being past it but do you not think you need over a certain amount of experience ?

'Course you do, but there's nothing tying it to age beyond a certain point. You can be in your 50s and pretty clueless, y'know. Versus in your 20s and really committed to trying to improve your understanding.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 16:45A good coach can fix errors in a fighters learned behaviour, help to bring strategies for particular opponents, and work on improving specific areas of a fighters skillset through training drills.

I think it's often enough to be an echo, just calling out mistakes someone already knows they're making, helping to steer them away from complacency. If a boxer's great anyway, that little voice is their best aid in my book. I'd put motivational ability above most qualities when talent's a given.

I think a lot of ex-pros are good at training those who can adapt to their teachings, but then sometimes hopeless with those who can't. It's understandable.

There’s no other major sport where someone with minimal experience is given one of the biggest athletes globally to train.

Would the five aside coach for a pub team near you be taken on as manager at Man Utd????

high tower 1 wrote: ↑13 May 2021, 03:29

Grilling Machine wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 22:43

high tower 1 wrote: ↑11 May 2021, 07:55At any trade I doubt you’ve mastered it in your 20s. Agreed on the golden oldies being past it but do you not think you need over a certain amount of experience ?

'Course you do, but there's nothing tying it to age beyond a certain point. You can be in your 50s and pretty clueless, y'know. Versus in your 20s and really committed to trying to improve your understanding.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑12 May 2021, 16:45A good coach can fix errors in a fighters learned behaviour, help to bring strategies for particular opponents, and work on improving specific areas of a fighters skillset through training drills.

I think it's often enough to be an echo, just calling out mistakes someone already knows they're making, helping to steer them away from complacency. If a boxer's great anyway, that little voice is their best aid in my book. I'd put motivational ability above most qualities when talent's a given.

I think a lot of ex-pros are good at training those who can adapt to their teachings, but then sometimes hopeless with those who can't. It's understandable.

There’s no other major sport where someone with minimal experience is given one of the biggest athletes globally to train.

Would the five aside coach for a pub team near you be taken on as manager at Man Utd????

No, and I suppose I'm contradicting myself here, some high level players have been terrible managers. The theory is they didn't have to think about what they were doing as it all came naturally, so couldn't teach it.