BoxRec

big boxer pimp wrote: ↑14 Sep 2021, 14:29

caldo2025 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2021, 23:56 The top P4P boxers from the last 20+ years? I mean, the odds are that they all have had to have some illicit assistance of some kind. Let’s be serious. The steroid era was in 1990’s and testing has always been huge steps behind the chemists ever since. Floyd’s been caught with illegal IV’s without penalty. Canelo is too big to fail for the sport so he gets to blame it on meat and that pathetic excuse was somehow enough to avoid penalties.

True but the difference is the level of enhancement. Those "steriod" users got a bump but now you have stuff on the market that makes that stuff seem like nothin

caldo2025 wrote: ↑15 Sep 2021, 13:02

big boxer pimp wrote: ↑14 Sep 2021, 14:29

caldo2025 wrote: ↑13 Sep 2021, 23:56 The top P4P boxers from the last 20+ years? I mean, the odds are that they all have had to have some illicit assistance of some kind. Let’s be serious. The steroid era was in 1990’s and testing has always been huge steps behind the chemists ever since. Floyd’s been caught with illegal IV’s without penalty. Canelo is too big to fail for the sport so he gets to blame it on meat and that pathetic excuse was somehow enough to avoid penalties.

True but the difference is the level of enhancement. Those "steriod" users got a bump but now you have stuff on the market that makes that stuff seem like nothin

Look, we all have been a witness to Canelo’s meteoric rise to the top P4P ranking. Here’s a guy that all of a sudden developed one punch power as he jumped 4 divisions. Come on man. Boxing can sell that stuff to tourists but not me.

Canelo will most likely never ever be guilty of PEDS due to his influence at this point but we all have to use common sense at some point. Welterweights just don’t get up one day and knock out the like of Kovalev. It just doesn’t happen in a world with rules. Without rules? Sure. That happens every Bingo Thursday at The Boys Club. But not in the real world.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Sep 2021, 05:19 It’s reasonable to claim that Canelo might be the most VADA or commission tested fighter competing today.

I’m not suggesting the Mexican is 100% clean, but it’s surprising (to the point of being comical) to see so many people ignore these rather pertinent facts!

SportsRatings wrote: ↑15 Sep 2021, 20:52

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Sep 2021, 05:19 It’s reasonable to claim that Canelo might be the most VADA or commission tested fighter competing today.

I’m not suggesting the Mexican is 100% clean, but it’s surprising (to the point of being comical) to see so many people ignore these rather pertinent facts!

Probably because Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in the history of testing, always tested clean.

Marion Jones tested clean hundreds of times too.

The Russians came back clean in Sochi, all of them, no problem.

Lots of users have tested clean hundreds of times, one way or another. It means nothing, unfortunately.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Sep 2021, 22:01 Then why is Canelo receiving so much hate, when the blame might lie with VADA or WADA (depending on who’s performing the testing)?

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑15 Sep 2021, 22:01

SportsRatings wrote: ↑15 Sep 2021, 20:52

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Sep 2021, 05:19 It’s reasonable to claim that Canelo might be the most VADA or commission tested fighter competing today.

I’m not suggesting the Mexican is 100% clean, but it’s surprising (to the point of being comical) to see so many people ignore these rather pertinent facts!

Probably because Lance Armstrong was the most tested athlete in the history of testing, always tested clean.

Marion Jones tested clean hundreds of times too.

The Russians came back clean in Sochi, all of them, no problem.

Lots of users have tested clean hundreds of times, one way or another. It means nothing, unfortunately.

I believe that Canelo has been tested an awful lot since May 2018, including out-of-competition.

If he is consuming PED’s, which he might be, then he’s using stuff that isn’t on the banned substance list.

Alternatively, the tests themselves are totally ineffective.

The only other option is that Canelo is a clean fighter.

If the tests aren’t good enough to detect PED’s when an athlete is regularly tested, then it’s the doping organisations fault.

If an athlete consumes PED’s that aren’t banned yet, then it’s the doping organisations fault.

If an athlete is testing clean, because they don’t consume PED’s, then they are blameless.

Therefore, let’s assume one of these three scenarios are true, because I can’t think of an alternative situation…

Then why is Canelo receiving so much hate, when the blame might lie with VADA or WADA (depending on who’s performing the testing)?

caldo2025 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2021, 22:29You “believe” that Canelo has been tested a lot? You, of all people, must assure to have unmistakable proof in order for someone to successfully post on this site anything that we feel is an opinion. You throw the “I believe” crap on the wall and expect us to sit by and allow it?

How’s this? Do you have proof via links that Canelo has been tested a lot? Actually, I feel dirty even trying to be you for a second. Actually, I hated it. I’m going to go ahead and let you make a generalization even though they don’t exist in your world. AND, I’m going to go ahead and say that I enjoyed your take on the subject. See how easy it is to avoid being a C?

566616 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 11:55 What most don't realize is that many fights hide under the guise of VADA, while sometimes, maybe often? they are only chosen to be the ones drawing the blood, not doing the testing. Big difference.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 05:21

caldo2025 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2021, 22:29You “believe” that Canelo has been tested a lot? You, of all people, must assure to have unmistakable proof in order for someone to successfully post on this site anything that we feel is an opinion. You throw the “I believe” crap on the wall and expect us to sit by and allow it?

How’s this? Do you have proof via links that Canelo has been tested a lot? Actually, I feel dirty even trying to be you for a second. Actually, I hated it. I’m going to go ahead and let you make a generalization even though they don’t exist in your world. AND, I’m going to go ahead and say that I enjoyed your take on the subject. See how easy it is to avoid being a C?

You’ll surely find that me being hostile is retaliatory rather than preemptive, but for some strange reason, people hold me accountable to higher standards than those that threw the first stone.

Anyway, even though I realise you were being sarcastic requesting proof of Canelo's testing, I had it to hand anyway and can provide it:

Hyperlinks to VADA mentioning Canelo via their tweets and website.

Timeline:
• March 2018 - Canelo submits a hair follicle sample at the request of the NSAC
• April 2018 - NSAC confirms Canelo's hair follicle assessment test results were clean
• May 2018 - Canelo enrols in year-round random drug testing performed by VADA (at his own expense), which obviously includes out-of-competition
• September 2018 -Canelo and GGG successfully complete VADA testing
• August 2019 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Kovalev are enrolled in their drug testing program
• November 2019 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Kovalev successfully completed their rug testing program
• March 2020 – VADA confirm the COVID-19 pandemic has prevented testing
• November 2020 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Smith are enrolled in their drug testing program
• December 2020 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Smith successfully completed their rug testing program
• January 2021 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Yildrm are enrolled in their drug testing program
• March 2021 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Yildrm successfully completed their drug testing program
• February 2021 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Saunders are enrolled in their drug testing program
• May 2021 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Saunders successfully completed their drug testing program
• August 2021 - VADA confirm that Canelo and Plant are enrolled in their drug testing program

For the record, Canelo has undergone significantly more VADA testing within the last twelve months than Manny Pacquiao has during the entirety of the Filipino’s 25 years and seven-month career.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47But let me ask you this…as s Canelo fan, do you truly believe Canelo to be a clean boxer?

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47You listed the test dates but in my mind, those were more like payment dates. Just because a boxer is listed as being tested, it doesn’t mean that clean results weren’t purchased.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Sep 2021, 07:22

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47But let me ask you this…as s Canelo fan, do you truly believe Canelo to be a clean boxer?

I believe all world-rated elite-level fighters have intentionally or unknowingly consumed PED’s at some point during the course of their careers. And this obviously includes Canelo.

That said, I don't believe that Canelo’s failed VADA test was proof that he was cheating using clenbuterol. According to the current threshold rules surrounding clenbuterol, Canelo would not have been deemed guilty of consuming a banned substance.

And let’s be perfectly honest, if Canelo really wanted to cheat, he wouldn’t have taken some cheap ḁṡṡ ṡhḯt like clenbuterol, which is the same over-the-counter diet pills that housewives, struggling actors and amateur bodybuilders are able to take (without a prescription in Mexico) to burn fat.

That said, it’s entirely possible that Canelo might be consuming PED’s and getting away with it, because he’s either using sophisticated stuff that aren’t on the banned substance lists, or alternatively, the WADA/VADA tests are totally ineffective.

And if one of these scenarios is true, then the blame lies with VADA/WADA, not Canelo, because there isn’t a fighter competing today that’s been tested as frequently as the Mexican has.

It’s also possible that Canelo is a “clean” athlete.

In terms of me being a so-called “fan” of Canelo's, I don’t know the guy, because I don’t speak Spanish. I enjoy his fights though, but I’m not emotionally invested.

But I am a huge fan of the truth, which means that when people make bold fictitious claims (and I’m not saying you personally have, I’m referring to others), I feel compelled to correct them with facts.

Here’s an interesting point: Canelo is tested all the time, but he’s ridiculed by fight fans and they still claim he’s using; Pacquiao has done his upmost to avoid testing, but the same set of people doggedly maintain he’s a clean fighter.

Canelo has become a bit of a pantomime villain. If there’s an earthquake, or a Tsunami, then he’s to blame.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47You listed the test dates but in my mind, those were more like payment dates. Just because a boxer is listed as being tested, it doesn’t mean that clean results weren’t purchased.

I don’t know how to respond to this.

Are you seriously suggesting that Canelo enrolled in multiple VADA test programs and there’s a conspiracy theory involving the WBC, the WBA, his opponents and the various commissions to ensure he doesn’t actually get tested?

As far as I’m concerned, the testing is disclosed internally to Canelo’s opponents, the commissions, and the sports’ governing bodies (i.e. WBC & WBA). Only failures are published to the public domain.

If you believe otherwise, then you’ll need to provide some sort of proof to convince me. And if none exists, then we really don't have much to talk about.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06My point or 2 points, if I may, is how could anyone with an adequate brain cell count trust anything like THIS to be on the up and up considering how the history of Boxing has showed that it’s basically run by criminals and thieves who have always been on the wrong side of an even playing field. You’ve got the cash cows making so much more money than the people employed to police them. In that equation, you’d be foolish to think that back alley deals of all kinds are constantly being made. It’s honestly like the mob back in the day. The cash cow mafioso bosses could operate freely as long as they made sure that they didn’t miss paying the people each month that allow them to do so.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06 Secondly, we’ve never seen a boxer move from WW to Light Heavy and grow in punching power like Canelo has. Sure his technique is much improved and his faints and head movement are in the ATG category to me. But from not being able to KO other top WW’s are we supposed to believe that someone like that could go and KO the top fighters at Light Heavy? That to me has got to be due to something unnatural.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:31

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06My point or 2 points, if I may, is how could anyone with an adequate brain cell count trust anything like THIS to be on the up and up considering how the history of Boxing has showed that it’s basically run by criminals and thieves who have always been on the wrong side of an even playing field. You’ve got the cash cows making so much more money than the people employed to police them. In that equation, you’d be foolish to think that back alley deals of all kinds are constantly being made. It’s honestly like the mob back in the day. The cash cow mafioso bosses could operate freely as long as they made sure that they didn’t miss paying the people each month that allow them to do so.

If what you say is true, then you’re suggesting many parties are complicit in order to facilitate your conspiracy theory.

There isn’t any evidence, so I can’t automatically assume that what you say is correct.

And if your claim really is true, then Canelo would never have failed the VADA test in 2018, because he was the sports’ biggest cash cow back then.

Like I said before, Canelo might be consuming PED’s – I’ve never ruled that out.

If he is, he’s definitely using something much more sophisticated than clenbuterol, which is either undetectable or isn’t on the banned substance list.

I genuinely believe that Canelo never used clenbuterol, because (based on what I’ve read) it’s fairly ineffective and is also highly-detectable. There are much better PED’s out there.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06 Secondly, we’ve never seen a boxer move from WW to Light Heavy and grow in punching power like Canelo has. Sure his technique is much improved and his faints and head movement are in the ATG category to me. But from not being able to KO other top WW’s are we supposed to believe that someone like that could go and KO the top fighters at Light Heavy? That to me has got to be due to something unnatural.

Nearly all fighters gradually improve (in terms of skill, athleticism and discipline) with age, at least until they’ve reached their physical prime.

And this trajectory for improvement is much steeper when a fighter may have had to cut a significant amount of weight during the early stages of their career, but they then move to a weight class they’re physically more suited when they've matured.

So here’s an example extracted from a previous post I submitted:

• Canelo was 19 years of age when he fought Jose Cotto. He was facing a mature fighter that had only previously suffered one defeat during the course of 33 bouts.

• Canelo was only 20 years of age when he fought Matthew Hatton, with the Brit having previously engaged in 47 bouts. It was the Mexican's very first world title fight.

• Canelo was 29½ years of age when he fought Sergey Kovalev. It was the Mexican’s 56th fight, 15th world title bout and also the 15th time he was sharing the ring with a former/current world champion.

Let's perform a comparison:

• Manny Pacquiao was 20 years of age when he suffered a third round KO defeat to Boonsai Sangsurat, whilst campaigning at 112lbs. Manny's opponent had previously engaged in only 18 bouts.

• Manny Pacquiao was 29 years of age and competing as a welterweight when he scored a dominant 8th round stoppage over Oscar De La Hoya.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 12:18Canelo jumping up and doing what he’s doing and done is so unfathomable to me because I know precisely what that weight difference actually means. I’m saying that there’s no possible way it could be done the way Canelo’s done it, naturally. Athletes get better as they approach prime and Canelo could be the only boxer in history to defy nature’s progressions but I don’t believe it.

With a Canelo fight now, it’s not a question of whether he gets the KO or DEC. The question is whether he gets the KO or the corner throwing the towel. His last 2 fights had to be stopped due to the damage being done to his opponents. Look, I hate these polls on this site but the tabulations thus far on this post is glaring. There are a lot of Goofballs on this site but I’ve found the majority of users to be very intelligent and savvy on the sport. Unfortunately, this “dirty” tag has got to follow Canelo and his legacy. There’s absolutely no way to erase it. The meat excuse will continue to go down in history when Canelo’s contribution to Boxing is ultimately measured. The failed test coupled with super human power displayed while jumping 4 weight classes= Dirty, just by using common sense.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Sep 2021, 07:22

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47But let me ask you this…as s Canelo fan, do you truly believe Canelo to be a clean boxer?

I believe all world-rated elite-level fighters have intentionally or unknowingly consumed PED’s at some point during the course of their careers. And this obviously includes Canelo.

That said, I don't believe that Canelo’s failed VADA test was proof that he was cheating using clenbuterol. According to the current threshold rules surrounding clenbuterol, Canelo would not have been deemed guilty of consuming a banned substance.

And let’s be perfectly honest, if Canelo really wanted to cheat, he wouldn’t have taken some cheap ḁṡṡ ṡhḯt like clenbuterol, which is the same over-the-counter diet pills that housewives, struggling actors and amateur bodybuilders are able to take (without a prescription in Mexico) to burn fat.

That said, it’s entirely possible that Canelo might be consuming PED’s and getting away with it, because he’s either using sophisticated stuff that aren’t on the banned substance lists, or alternatively, the WADA/VADA tests are totally ineffective.

And if one of these scenarios is true, then the blame lies with VADA/WADA, not Canelo, because there isn’t a fighter competing today that’s been tested as frequently as the Mexican has.

It’s also possible that Canelo is a “clean” athlete.

In terms of me being a so-called “fan” of Canelo's, I don’t know the guy, because I don’t speak Spanish. I enjoy his fights though, but I’m not emotionally invested.

But I am a huge fan of the truth, which means that when people make bold fictitious claims (and I’m not saying you personally have, I’m referring to others), I feel compelled to correct them with facts.

Here’s an interesting point: Canelo is tested all the time, but he’s ridiculed by fight fans and they still claim he’s using; Pacquiao has done his upmost to avoid testing, but the same set of people doggedly maintain he’s a clean fighter.

Canelo has become a bit of a pantomime villain. If there’s an earthquake, or a Tsunami, then he’s to blame.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47You listed the test dates but in my mind, those were more like payment dates. Just because a boxer is listed as being tested, it doesn’t mean that clean results weren’t purchased.

I don’t know how to respond to this.

Are you seriously suggesting that Canelo enrolled in multiple VADA test programs and there’s a conspiracy theory involving the WBC, the WBA, his opponents and the various commissions to ensure he doesn’t actually get tested?

As far as I’m concerned, the testing is disclosed internally to Canelo’s opponents, the commissions, and the sports’ governing bodies (i.e. WBC & WBA). Only failures are published to the public domain.

If you believe otherwise, then you’ll need to provide some sort of proof to convince me. And if none exists, then we really don't have much to talk about.

My point or 2 points, if I may, is how could anyone with an adequate brain cell count trust anything like THIS to be on the up and up considering how the history of Boxing has showed that it’s basically run by criminals and thieves who have always been on the wrong side of an even playing field. You’ve got the cash cows making so much more money than the people employed to police them. In that equation, you’d be foolish to think that back alley deals of all kinds aren’t constantly being made. It’s honestly like the mob back in the day. The cash cow mafioso bosses could operate freely as long as they made sure that they didn’t miss paying the people each month that allow them to do so.


Secondly, we’ve never seen a boxer move from WW to Light Heavy and grow in punching power like Canelo has. Sure his technique is much improved and his faints and head movement are in the ATG category to me. But from not being able to KO other top WW’s are we supposed to believe that someone like that could go and KO the top fighters at Light Heavy? That to me has got to be due to something unnatural. The bad meat failed test to me was the smoking gun but really, the actual smoking gun should be the punching power he’s exhibiting fighting 30 pounds over where he came from. It’s not like Tommy Hearns who had the build of a light heavy and grew into his frame. Canelo is still diminutive for the higher classes but somehow has greater punching power? THIS, to me, is unprecedented in this sport. Folks could point to Manny similarly but I disagree. Manny has been boxing pro since he was freaking 15 and I think that his punching power displayed during his prime at 147 had more to do with a natural progression over many years. WW to me is still a lightweight. But moving from WW to LH is like moving to a different universe.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑20 Sep 2021, 07:22

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47But let me ask you this…as s Canelo fan, do you truly believe Canelo to be a clean boxer?

I believe all world-rated elite-level fighters have intentionally or unknowingly consumed PED’s at some point during the course of their careers. And this obviously includes Canelo.

That said, I don't believe that Canelo’s failed VADA test was proof that he was cheating using clenbuterol. According to the current threshold rules surrounding clenbuterol, Canelo would not have been deemed guilty of consuming a banned substance.

And let’s be perfectly honest, if Canelo really wanted to cheat, he wouldn’t have taken some cheap ḁṡṡ ṡhḯt like clenbuterol, which is the same over-the-counter diet pills that housewives, struggling actors and amateur bodybuilders are able to take (without a prescription in Mexico) to burn fat.

That said, it’s entirely possible that Canelo might be consuming PED’s and getting away with it, because he’s either using sophisticated stuff that aren’t on the banned substance lists, or alternatively, the WADA/VADA tests are totally ineffective.

And if one of these scenarios is true, then the blame lies with VADA/WADA, not Canelo, because there isn’t a fighter competing today that’s been tested as frequently as the Mexican has.

It’s also possible that Canelo is a “clean” athlete.

In terms of me being a so-called “fan” of Canelo's, I don’t know the guy, because I don’t speak Spanish. I enjoy his fights though, but I’m not emotionally invested.

But I am a huge fan of the truth, which means that when people make bold fictitious claims (and I’m not saying you personally have, I’m referring to others), I feel compelled to correct them with facts.

Here’s an interesting point: Canelo is tested all the time, but he’s ridiculed by fight fans and they still claim he’s using; Pacquiao has done his upmost to avoid testing, but the same set of people doggedly maintain he’s a clean fighter.

Canelo has become a bit of a pantomime villain. If there’s an earthquake, or a Tsunami, then he’s to blame.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2021, 16:47You listed the test dates but in my mind, those were more like payment dates. Just because a boxer is listed as being tested, it doesn’t mean that clean results weren’t purchased.

I don’t know how to respond to this.

Are you seriously suggesting that Canelo enrolled in multiple VADA test programs and there’s a conspiracy theory involving the WBC, the WBA, his opponents and the various commissions to ensure he doesn’t actually get tested?

As far as I’m concerned, the testing is disclosed internally to Canelo’s opponents, the commissions, and the sports’ governing bodies (i.e. WBC & WBA). Only failures are published to the public domain.

If you believe otherwise, then you’ll need to provide some sort of proof to convince me. And if none exists, then we really don't have much to talk about.

My point or 2 points, if I may, is how could anyone with an adequate brain cell count trust anything like THIS to be on the up and up considering how the history of Boxing has showed that it’s basically run by criminals and thieves who have always been on the wrong side of an even playing field. You’ve got the cash cows making so much more money than the people employed to police them. In that equation, you’d be foolish to think that back alley deals of all kinds aren’t constantly being made. It’s honestly like the mob back in the day. The cash cow mafioso bosses could operate freely as long as they made sure that they didn’t miss paying the people each month that allow them to do so.


Secondly, we’ve never seen a boxer move from WW to Light Heavy and grow in punching power like Canelo has. Sure his technique is much improved and his faints and head movement are in the ATG category to me. But from not being able to KO other top WW’s are we supposed to believe that someone like that could go and KO the top fighters at Light Heavy? That to me has got to be due to something unnatural. The bad meat failed test to me was the smoking gun but really, the actual smoking gun should be the punching power he’s exhibiting fighting 30 pounds over where he came from. It’s not like Tommy Hearns who had the build of a light heavy and grew into his frame. Canelo is still diminutive for the higher classes but somehow has greater punching power? THIS, to me, is unprecedented in this sport. Folks could point to Manny similarly but I disagree. Manny has been boxing pro since he was freaking 15 and I think that his punching power displayed during his prime at 147 had more to do with a natural progression over many years. WW to me is still a lightweight. But moving from WW to LH is like moving to a different universe.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 12:18

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:31

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06My point or 2 points, if I may, is how could anyone with an adequate brain cell count trust anything like THIS to be on the up and up considering how the history of Boxing has showed that it’s basically run by criminals and thieves who have always been on the wrong side of an even playing field. You’ve got the cash cows making so much more money than the people employed to police them. In that equation, you’d be foolish to think that back alley deals of all kinds are constantly being made. It’s honestly like the mob back in the day. The cash cow mafioso bosses could operate freely as long as they made sure that they didn’t miss paying the people each month that allow them to do so.

If what you say is true, then you’re suggesting many parties are complicit in order to facilitate your conspiracy theory.

There isn’t any evidence, so I can’t automatically assume that what you say is correct.

And if your claim really is true, then Canelo would never have failed the VADA test in 2018, because he was the sports’ biggest cash cow back then.

Like I said before, Canelo might be consuming PED’s – I’ve never ruled that out.

If he is, he’s definitely using something much more sophisticated than clenbuterol, which is either undetectable or isn’t on the banned substance list.

I genuinely believe that Canelo never used clenbuterol, because (based on what I’ve read) it’s fairly ineffective and is also highly-detectable. There are much better PED’s out there.

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 11:06 Secondly, we’ve never seen a boxer move from WW to Light Heavy and grow in punching power like Canelo has. Sure his technique is much improved and his faints and head movement are in the ATG category to me. But from not being able to KO other top WW’s are we supposed to believe that someone like that could go and KO the top fighters at Light Heavy? That to me has got to be due to something unnatural.

Nearly all fighters gradually improve (in terms of skill, athleticism and discipline) with age, at least until they’ve reached their physical prime.

And this trajectory for improvement is much steeper when a fighter may have had to cut a significant amount of weight during the early stages of their career, but they then move to a weight class they’re physically more suited when they've matured.

So here’s an example extracted from a previous post I submitted:

• Canelo was 19 years of age when he fought Jose Cotto. He was facing a mature fighter that had only previously suffered one defeat during the course of 33 bouts.

• Canelo was only 20 years of age when he fought Matthew Hatton, with the Brit having previously engaged in 47 bouts. It was the Mexican's very first world title fight.

• Canelo was 29½ years of age when he fought Sergey Kovalev. It was the Mexican’s 56th fight, 15th world title bout and also the 15th time he was sharing the ring with a former/current world champion.

Let's perform a comparison:

• Manny Pacquiao was 20 years of age when he suffered a third round KO defeat to Boonsai Sangsurat, whilst campaigning at 112lbs. Manny's opponent had previously engaged in only 18 bouts.

• Manny Pacquiao was 29 years of age and competing as a welterweight when he scored a dominant 8th round stoppage over Oscar De La Hoya.

Here’s my point with the latter half of your well explained and written reply. I came from the world of weight classes. Boxing and Wrestling are very similar when it comes to the fact that they both have 2 fights every single fight/match. The first fight is against the scale and secondly, much less importantly, the 2nd fight against the opponent.

I started out at 114lbs and starved myself weekly and power/conditioning was low. Technique was thrown out the window bc coach’s main agenda was making weight. In 3 years, I had jumped to 135 pounds which equates to 4 weight classes. Even though I was also very diminutive, at 135 I could focus more on technique bc making weight was not an issue anymore. My strength and conditioning were so much better. Add that to the previous years experience, I was a far better wrestler. But I think that 135 was the limit for me as I think it was also for Manny. But then I use my own experience to envision me jumping another 5 weight classes? For example, me jumping up to 175lbs from 135lbs and wrestling there? I’d get absolutely murdered. I’d be lucky to get a point or not get stuck and pinned in seconds.

Now we’re talking about the best boxers in the world here and not some dumb small college wrestling in Northeast which is probably the worst region of wrestling in the country. Canelo jumping up and doing what he’s doing and done is so unfathomable to me because I know precisely what that weight difference actually means. I’m saying that there’s no possible way it could be done the way Canelo’s done it, naturally. Athletes get better as they approach prime and Canelo could be the only boxer in history to defy nature’s progressions but I don’t believe it.

With a Canelo fight now, it’s not a question of whether he gets the KO or DEC. The question is whether he gets the KO or the corner throwing the towel. His last 2 fights had to be stopped due to the damage being done to his opponents. Look, I hate these polls on this site but the tabulations thus far on this post is glaring. There are a lot of Goofballs on this site but I’ve found the majority of users to be very intelligent and savvy on the sport. Unfortunately, this “dirty” tag has got to follow Canelo and his legacy. There’s absolutely no way to erase it. The meat excuse will continue to go down in history when Canelo’s contribution to Boxing is ultimately measured. The failed test coupled with super human power displayed while jumping 4 weight classes= Dirty, just by using common sense.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 12:42

caldo2025 wrote: ↑21 Sep 2021, 12:18Canelo jumping up and doing what he’s doing and done is so unfathomable to me because I know precisely what that weight difference actually means. I’m saying that there’s no possible way it could be done the way Canelo’s done it, naturally. Athletes get better as they approach prime and Canelo could be the only boxer in history to defy nature’s progressions but I don’t believe it.

With a Canelo fight now, it’s not a question of whether he gets the KO or DEC. The question is whether he gets the KO or the corner throwing the towel. His last 2 fights had to be stopped due to the damage being done to his opponents. Look, I hate these polls on this site but the tabulations thus far on this post is glaring. There are a lot of Goofballs on this site but I’ve found the majority of users to be very intelligent and savvy on the sport. Unfortunately, this “dirty” tag has got to follow Canelo and his legacy. There’s absolutely no way to erase it. The meat excuse will continue to go down in history when Canelo’s contribution to Boxing is ultimately measured. The failed test coupled with super human power displayed while jumping 4 weight classes= Dirty, just by using common sense.

I can wholly appreciate your reasoning for the scepticism about Canelo’s career progression and athletic prowess as he’s moved through the weight classes.

And like I said before, I’ve never ruled-out the possibility that Canelo is consuming PED’s.

But as marvellous as Canelo’s feats are, they’re not that rare (in the context of other great fighters I’ve already named in my previous post - i.e. 147lb-ers or 154lb-ers in the amateurs competing at light heavy or heavyweight in the pros).

Also, how many times has Canelo delivered truly concussive stoppages within the last 5½ years (since the Amir Khan fight)? I can only think of Sergey Kovalev.

For sure, Canelo has stopped other fighters since then, and he does look powerful, but the four TKO's he's scored within that time period were either between rounds retirements or the ref stopping fights due to body shots.

The Mexican only has a 50% KO ratio within the last five years.

Canelo hasn’t suddenly become the second coming of Julian Jackson or Gerald McClellan. Instead, he tends to dismantle his foes via attrition or exploit traps he’s set.

Canelo gets away with constantly throwing heavy blows, because he rarely misses -he's extremely efficient. The Mexican doesn’t tend to throw speculative combinations.
[s /quote]

Come on EO, please think about his fights since jumping up to challenge the world champions. Do you remember how deadly Callum Smith was supposed to be? This kid was so outmanned that his goal of winning the fight quickly caonverted to just being able to finish it just after 5 rounds with Canelo. To me, this was worse than a KO. When someone stops throwing punches to win and instead resorts to tying up and not putting out the punches requiring them to win due to fears of being countered, that’s worse than KO or Submission.

You must remember how hot Smith’s mojo was. How can a WW come up and do that? We’re talking about the world here…Smith was the best in the whole world at that weight. Canelo b asically beat him like rented mule that he didn’t care about because it wasn’t his. It’s just not feasible man. I’d love to say that Canelo is the greatest I’ve ever seen but he’s just so clearly dirty to me that I just can’t back the dude and will always be rooting for him to get his medicine. There are people doing it right and I’d prefer that they win that kind of money instead. Plant is one of those guys so you know where my rooting interests lie. But judging by Canelo’s reflexes today at that press conference, I think we are unfortunately in for one of the same old Canelo beat downs. God bless him. Drugs or not, the kid is just unreal and nasty

caldo2025 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2021, 04:09Come on EO, please think about his fights since jumping up to challenge the world champions. Do you remember how deadly Callum Smith was supposed to be? This kid was so outmanned that his goal of winning the fight quickly caonverted to just being able to finish it just after 5 rounds with Canelo. To me, this was worse than a KO. When someone stops throwing punches to win and instead resorts to tying up and not putting out the punches requiring them to win due to fears of being countered, that’s worse than KO or Submission.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑22 Sep 2021, 08:05

caldo2025 wrote: ↑22 Sep 2021, 04:09Come on EO, please think about his fights since jumping up to challenge the world champions. Do you remember how deadly Callum Smith was supposed to be? This kid was so outmanned that his goal of winning the fight quickly caonverted to just being able to finish it just after 5 rounds with Canelo. To me, this was worse than a KO. When someone stops throwing punches to win and instead resorts to tying up and not putting out the punches requiring them to win due to fears of being countered, that’s worse than KO or Submission.

Callum Smith explained the following to Boxing Social:

“[My arm] is füçkéd, to be honest with you,

“And it was intentional, because I knew from the first round... [Canelo] was aiming for my arm, every right hook he kept throwing [at it], he was going for my arm...

“And then after round four, I told [my corner] my arm is füçkêd,

“He kind of took away my catch left-hook, which is my best shot, which was probably [their plan]

“When he was hitting my arm, it was making my arm drop, rather than being able to return with it. He took [my best] shot away from me.

“And every credit to him, he knew what he was doing.

“After the twelfth round, he just looked [at it] and laughed at the swelling.

“It was just his experience... because he took away my best shot!”

I hope that explains what happened during the Canelo-Smith bout, since it was clear the Mexican was intentionally trying to punch and damage the Brits arm.



In the same video, as well as discussing the Mexican's arm punching tactics, Callum Smith also claimed that he wasn't particularly impressed with Canelo's power.