BoxRec

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:59

bjornborgbook wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:47

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:20

He could've asked for one. I doubt he would've gotten one.

What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.

Unless you got a Rematch clause in the contract you can demand all you want, it don't mean you're gonna f*cking get it.

There obviously wasn't a rematch clause in the contract, and Foreman who won with a great shot after taking 9 rounds of an ass kicking, wasn't eager to get beat the f*ck up again while hoping for a perfect shot I'm sure.

Moorer wouldn't have hesitated for the rematch, but it wasn't up to him.

I think it is mentioned in Atlas' book that he didn't like the idea of a Foreman rematch because mentally Foreman had it over Moorer.

I watched the fight again last night and while it appears like a hail mary punch in memory and it does help the fairy tale, Foreman did land quite a lot. His constant pressure and power was what got to Moorer in the end. He landed some huge shots to the body which probably helped slow Moorer down. Moorer was undeniably winning but when rewatching the fight last night (and hindsight is 20/20) but the big shots were all landed by George, Moorer was standing in the pocket more as the fight went by, so there was almost some air of inevitability about it. You can't stand in front of a puncher like Foreman, take full force shots and not get hurt and/or stopped.
It somewhat reminded me of a Beterbiev fight simply because George with every shot was clubbing Moorer while not really ever being in trouble himself despite being hit.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:17 Looks like Boxers of the Past has a new forum buffoon.

we've seen much worse, but as with all of them, it's the deep and obviously sincere belief in his own unique insight and red-pill-embracing mindset that's a combination of irritating and ultimately pathetic.

Counter-puncher wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 08:46

Billy Tully wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:17 Looks like Boxers of the Past has a new forum buffoon.

we've seen much worse, but as with all of them, it's the deep and obviously sincere belief in his own unique insight and red-pill-embracing mindset that's a combination of irritating and ultimately pathetic.

init though?

Kalan
granberry
this (allegedly) 'Scoop' idiot

they all act like they're so unique, but they all do the exact same sh1te.

bjornborgbook wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 15:36

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:59

bjornborgbook wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:47
What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.

Unless you got a Rematch clause in the contract you can demand all you want, it don't mean you're gonna f*cking get it.

There obviously wasn't a rematch clause in the contract, and Foreman who won with a great shot after taking 9 rounds of an ass kicking, wasn't eager to get beat the f*ck up again while hoping for a perfect shot I'm sure.

Moorer wouldn't have hesitated for the rematch, but it wasn't up to him.

It appears he didn't want the rematch to avenge the terrible loss because he sold the belts to the establishment. A real champion who loses his title, the first thing he wants is revenge redemption to regain his value and leverage. To not want that smells of corruption, it's just not how a true champion acts.

Bowe wanted the Holy rematch. Ali wanted the Frazier rematch. Frazier wanted the Foreman rematch. Holmes wanted the Spinks rematch. Wladimir wanted the Fury rematch. Because those were real fights. Hagler and Leonard didn't want the Leonard rematches - those fights were suspect.

Moorer was satisfied to get knocked out (or dive) for a 45 year old??? Cmon bro, you've got to be effing kidding.

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 00:54

gilgamesh wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:59

bjornborgbook wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 13:47
What kind of champion loses the title to a 45 year old and then does not demand an immediate rematch? I'd suggest one that sold the belt for the establishment.

Unless you got a Rematch clause in the contract you can demand all you want, it don't mean you're gonna f*cking get it.

There obviously wasn't a rematch clause in the contract, and Foreman who won with a great shot after taking 9 rounds of an ass kicking, wasn't eager to get beat the f*ck up again while hoping for a perfect shot I'm sure.

Moorer wouldn't have hesitated for the rematch, but it wasn't up to him.

I think it is mentioned in Atlas' book that he didn't like the idea of a Foreman rematch because mentally Foreman had it over Moorer.

I watched the fight again last night and while it appears like a hail mary punch in memory and it does help the fairy tale, Foreman did land quite a lot. His constant pressure and power was what got to Moorer in the end. He landed some huge shots to the body which probably helped slow Moorer down. Moorer was undeniably winning but when rewatching the fight last night (and hindsight is 20/20) but the big shots were all landed by George, Moorer was standing in the pocket more as the fight went by, so there was almost some air of inevitability about it. You can't stand in front of a puncher like Foreman, take full force shots and not get hurt and/or stopped.
It somewhat reminded me of a Beterbiev fight simply because George with every shot was clubbing Moorer while not really ever being in trouble himself despite being hit.

If you're beating a guy every step of the way until you get caught and KO'd, and your trainer thinks you can't possibly beat that guy in a rematch I'd definitely fire that trainer as soon as he even suggested something like that.

I don't think an immediate rematch would have been wise for Moorer.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 13:23

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 00:54 I think it is mentioned in Atlas' book that he didn't like the idea of a Foreman rematch because mentally Foreman had it over Moorer.

I watched the fight again last night and while it appears like a hail mary punch in memory and it does help the fairy tale, Foreman did land quite a lot. His constant pressure and power was what got to Moorer in the end. He landed some huge shots to the body which probably helped slow Moorer down. Moorer was undeniably winning but when rewatching the fight last night (and hindsight is 20/20) but the big shots were all landed by George, Moorer was standing in the pocket more as the fight went by, so there was almost some air of inevitability about it. You can't stand in front of a puncher like Foreman, take full force shots and not get hurt and/or stopped.
It somewhat reminded me of a Beterbiev fight simply because George with every shot was clubbing Moorer while not really ever being in trouble himself despite being hit.

If you're beating a guy every step of the way until you get caught and KO'd, and your trainer thinks you can't possibly beat that guy in a rematch I'd definitely fire that trainer as soon as he even suggested something like that.

Atlas never thought it was a skill thing. He was confident Moorer had the skills to beat George but he didn't believe Moorer was confident about that after Foreman knocked him out. At least for a while after being knocked out.

I think with Atlas being such a D'Amato desciple he like Cus was very strong on the mental side of fighters, not just as it was in the ring but what their background and personality could dictate etc. I think he and Cus are/were somewhat of amateur psychologists with their knowledge based on their own experiences.

Speaking of Moorer, does anyone know why the right handed Moorer fought as a lefty? Other than Naz he is the only guy that I know of that was a righty fighting as a lefty. In Naz's case Ingle believed that because the lead hand is the more active and thus the more important hand, your dominant hand should be the lead hand.

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 22:09 Speaking of Moorer, does anyone know why the right handed Moorer fought as a lefty? Other than Naz he is the only guy that I know of that was a righty fighting as a lefty.

Hagler

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 22:07

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 13:23

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 00:54 I think it is mentioned in Atlas' book that he didn't like the idea of a Foreman rematch because mentally Foreman had it over Moorer.

I watched the fight again last night and while it appears like a hail mary punch in memory and it does help the fairy tale, Foreman did land quite a lot. His constant pressure and power was what got to Moorer in the end. He landed some huge shots to the body which probably helped slow Moorer down. Moorer was undeniably winning but when rewatching the fight last night (and hindsight is 20/20) but the big shots were all landed by George, Moorer was standing in the pocket more as the fight went by, so there was almost some air of inevitability about it. You can't stand in front of a puncher like Foreman, take full force shots and not get hurt and/or stopped.
It somewhat reminded me of a Beterbiev fight simply because George with every shot was clubbing Moorer while not really ever being in trouble himself despite being hit.

If you're beating a guy every step of the way until you get caught and KO'd, and your trainer thinks you can't possibly beat that guy in a rematch I'd definitely fire that trainer as soon as he even suggested something like that.

Atlas never thought it was a skill thing. He was confident Moorer had the skills to beat George but he didn't believe Moorer was confident about that after Foreman knocked him out. At least for a while after being knocked out.

I think with Atlas being such a D'Amato desciple he like Cus was very strong on the mental side of fighters, not just as it was in the ring but what their background and personality could dictate etc. I think he and Cus are/were somewhat of amateur psychologists with their knowledge based on their own experiences.

Atlas seems like he took all of the wrong lessons from Cus to be honest. He seems to diminish his fighters. "I believe he may lack confidence so I'm just gonna completely lack any confidence in him, and not let him fight dangerous guys" I'd fire that asshole

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 22:09 Speaking of Moorer, does anyone know why the right handed Moorer fought as a lefty? Other than Naz he is the only guy that I know of that was a righty fighting as a lefty. In Naz's case Ingle believed that because the lead hand is the more active and thus the more important hand, your dominant hand should be the lead hand.

Winky Wright did that too. I think the reason he gave is that "For whatever reason it just felt right to me to fight that way. To have a strong jab"

Most of his offense was the jab so I can see it.

Tyson I think was a natural left hander who fought in the Orthodox stance too. I'm sure Boxing has had a ton of those, due to trainers who really didn't know how to go about training a left hander.

Ayub Kalule too, if I remember right.

Best opponent: Ali.
Best win: Norton.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Mar 2022, 13:45

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 22:07

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 13:23

If you're beating a guy every step of the way until you get caught and KO'd, and your trainer thinks you can't possibly beat that guy in a rematch I'd definitely fire that trainer as soon as he even suggested something like that.

Atlas never thought it was a skill thing. He was confident Moorer had the skills to beat George but he didn't believe Moorer was confident about that after Foreman knocked him out. At least for a while after being knocked out.

I think with Atlas being such a D'Amato desciple he like Cus was very strong on the mental side of fighters, not just as it was in the ring but what their background and personality could dictate etc. I think he and Cus are/were somewhat of amateur psychologists with their knowledge based on their own experiences.

Atlas seems like he took all of the wrong lessons from Cus to be honest. He seems to diminish his fighters. "I believe he may lack confidence so I'm just gonna completely lack any confidence in him, and not let him fight dangerous guys" I'd fire that asshole

Yeah he is an interesting character but far from perfect.
I think if you know your guy isn't confident against a certain fighter regardless of whether you think he will win or not, there is no need to go rushing into a fight with that guy. I do believe on some level though Atlas does project his own insecurities onto his fighters. That can be great when his fighters have the same insecurities that he does but equally terrible when they don't.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑04 Mar 2022, 13:46

p4p1 wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 22:09 Speaking of Moorer, does anyone know why the right handed Moorer fought as a lefty? Other than Naz he is the only guy that I know of that was a righty fighting as a lefty. In Naz's case Ingle believed that because the lead hand is the more active and thus the more important hand, your dominant hand should be the lead hand.

Winky Wright did that too. I think the reason he gave is that "For whatever reason it just felt right to me to fight that way. To have a strong jab"

Most of his offense was the jab so I can see it.

Tyson I think was a natural left hander who fought in the Orthodox stance too. I'm sure Boxing has had a ton of those, due to trainers who really didn't know how to go about training a left hander.

I honestly had no idea Tyson was left handed. But yeah there is a tonne of guys through the years that have been left handed but fought as righties for the reason you mention. For a long time lefties were taught to be right handed as well in schooling, so those guys would transfer that to the gym.

- Seems to me to be a measly question for such an all time great that pretty much misses the gravitas of Big Georges career.

First, one helluva kickoff with barely 20 ama fights, age 19 BTFO the professional commie Soviets and Cubanos for the storied 68 Mexico City Olympics Gold Medal, and then undefeated Frazier and then Norton, the first America Heavy to win the title out of country with all his defenses out of the country. Those were tragically uncertain times of readjustment in the US and Internationally. His the golden era of US heavies with Joe, Ali, Kenny, and George, but Joe, Ali, and Kenny all engaged in trilogies with each other, but froze George out though Joe eventually manned up to their rematch.

After Ali fought Foreman, his performance takes a huge hit, ie Wepner for peanuts instead of the $5 mil rematch in Indonesia as does his KO ratio. No fighter came out of a Foreman fight unscathed. See Vander, 7-0, 7 KO coming in, and 16-10-2, 7 KO running out to the end of his career.

So he lost a few fights, but won all the Wars as he remained intact to the very end with prime heavies donning track shoes to keep Corona social distance spacing from the slowing Old Man, Shannon Briggs being the last. His career record of 76-5, 69 KO is the best record modern record since Joe Lewis though short on titles bouts in part to splitting up his career for 10 years that allowed him to ditch DKing.

Still, but for the conniving Fates that first allowed him his rightful place at the right time in his beginnings before abandoning him, in his comeback he almost got his $20 mil prime Tyson fight in China that was scratched by international politics after the Tianamen Square tragedy. Most think stylistically he would've beat Tyson. That would've given the world a different look at George.

Moorer undefeated and something of a LH legend, KO artist and lefty to boot another huge scalp. He made Vander retire after winning that title. As to Looney Teddy, the guy is a wingnut short of being a full blown psychopathic killer. Kid Tyson lucky Teddy didn't jerk, and later he pulls out his gun to go hunt down Donny LaLonde. His pro training record is sparse because he's a dangerous idiot such that Cus kicked out of his training camp. He never had anything to do with Mike's pro career, but made a pretty good living aping Cus principles even if his training was short a few screws. 

He got up at a Moorer press conference to go screaming in sitting George's ear telling him he was a coward and quitter for not beating the Ali count even though by video time George was up in 9 sec. George was just chuckling watching this stupid runt blow his gaskets. Nobody was born cooler than Big George. Any losses were met with the same equanimty.

As to modern fighters being converted from lefty to orthodox, the record seems poorly recorded, anecdotal at best. Thought Wlad with his dozen+ variations of jabs and hooks including hooks off the jabs must of been lefty, but I saw him signing autographs with his right hand. Pretty sure I read Frazier was lefty, but that was a long time ago, and at any rate, lefties finally got their civil rights and can fight as lefties now. Some guys like Marv, Fury, and Crawford are switch hitters. I know being raised as a right handed baseball player, as I matured I started going lefty first playing pingpong that caused a rift with my best friend at the time when I started whomping him. In Construction it pays to be ambidextrous, and in playing soccer with the boys, ya gots two feets and they aint both goofy and so on and so forth including my heavybag workouts.

Which finger you boys pick your nose with

bjornborgbook wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 18:41 The Moorer fight looked suspect. The sudden drop like he got shot and the whole reaction after looked contrived. Also the fact that Moorer did not demand an immediate rematch and was later rewarded with another IBF shot. No disrespect to Foreman, he was a big moneymaker and Moorer was a boring dud as champ. Wouldn't be shocked if Moorer sold the belts and got a percentage of future Foreman title fights like the Louis-Braddock arrangement.

This video pretty much breaks down Foreman's plan and strategy. Everything went exactly to plan in the 10th round.

Best win: Frazier I.
2 - Norton

Other impressive wins:

Chuvalo
Cooney
Moorer
Lyle
Evangilista

EDIT: Not Evangilista, Adilson Rodrigues

I don't think he fought Evangelista. Were you thinking of someone else?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑23 Mar 2022, 10:46 I don't think he fought Evangelista. Were you thinking of someone else?

100% was thinking Adilson Rodrigues

Thought he looked pretty good against Rodrigues as well. In that fight and the Cooney fight, he didn't seem to be so old. In most of his other fights during his comeback, he showed his age.

I had never seen the Cooney fight until recently.

At the time I just imagined it was a bit of a joke fight. Cooney had been a zombie against Spinks. A shell of the man who fought Holmes.

Foreman was scaring many people in the sport. Common wisdom was he was going to get badly hurt because he was too old. Not against Cooney, although that was a possibility. But sooner or later he would meet a contender with a pulse and get smashed up. His health would suffer. And so would the reputation of the sport.

Two guys trying to use the other's past rep to get themselves a title shot before another retirement.

Anyway... Cooney looked far better in those couple of rounds against George than he did against Spinks.

It's a good win for Foreman.

Obvious picks here, although it's possible to debate on the best KO win in terms of a spectacle. The Frazier wins were big historically, but both those stoppages were technical. KOs over Cooney and Moorer looked more spectacular.

KO 2 Frazier, Ko 1 Norton, Ko 10 Morrer, Ko5 Lyle.

Quite a resume, Next fo whats out there today, incomparable.