BoxRec

on par with your fake moon landing and Challenger shuttle conspiracy theories.

Leonard does admit to trying to get the rematch as quick as possible to take advantage of Duran's lifestyle. Is it all that sporting? Probably not but if in Ray's position it is a smart move to make.
Duran's team could have pushed the rematch back further if they wanted to but they had their own reasons not to:

wrote: "I made that rematch in three months because he started drinking," Duran's manager and patron Carlos Eleta told Duran's biographer, Christian Giudice. "I worried if he fought again, he would lose to a second-rate fighter."

Not knowing if Duran would ever stop partying his own team decided to cash out against Leonard because he was so out of control they didn't know if he would ever be able to get himself into proper fighting shape to take on a nobody. I can't see how that was a nationalistic conspiracy when his manager was Panamanian. Of course the WBC wanted Ray as champ, he generated $$$ but as far as I can see they had nothing to do with the quick rematch.
Duran was IMO well within his rights to party as hard as he wanted. I don't know that there is any non-military lifestyles as hard as boxing and after having a career high pay-day of $1.5m he understandably decided to really enjoy it. Duran's biggest fault as a fighter seems to be that if he didn't have a fight coming up he wouldn't bother training. If he didn't have a fight coming up he wouldn't bother training. To counteract, his team tried to keep him fairly busy by having constant non-title fights, one of which he lost.

None of that takes away from Duran's greatness and if anything does IMO enhance his legend. If he had been a gym rat like many of his peers he may have been even greater. However when evaluating the rematch, Ray himself admits that he knew Duran wouldn't be the same as he was in Montreal, something some people refuse to accept. The blame for that does however lay almost solely on Duran.

If there was an award for "Fan so in love with his idol he is borderline nuts", Elmo would have won it every year since 1980.

p4p1 wrote: ↑17 Mar 2022, 02:46 Leonard does admit to trying to get the rematch as quick as possible to take advantage of Duran's lifestyle. Is it all that sporting? Probably not but if in Ray's position it is a smart move to make.
Duran's team could have pushed the rematch back further if they wanted to but they had their own reasons not to:

wrote: "I made that rematch in three months because he started drinking," Duran's manager and patron Carlos Eleta told Duran's biographer, Christian Giudice. "I worried if he fought again, he would lose to a second-rate fighter."

Not knowing if Duran would ever stop partying his own team decided to cash out against Leonard because he was so out of control they didn't know if he would ever be able to get himself into proper fighting shape to take on a nobody. I can't see how that was a nationalistic conspiracy when his manager was Panamanian. Of course the WBC wanted Ray as champ, he generated $$$ but as far as I can see they had nothing to do with the quick rematch.
Duran was IMO well within his rights to party as hard as he wanted. I don't know that there is any non-military lifestyles as hard as boxing and after having a career high pay-day of $1.5m he understandably decided to really enjoy it. Duran's biggest fault as a fighter seems to be that if he didn't have a fight coming up he wouldn't bother training. If he didn't have a fight coming up he wouldn't bother training. To counteract, his team tried to keep him fairly busy by having constant non-title fights, one of which he lost.

None of that takes away from Duran's greatness and if anything does IMO enhance his legend. If he had been a gym rat like many of his peers he may have been even greater. However when evaluating the rematch, Ray himself admits that he knew Duran wouldn't be the same as he was in Montreal, something some people refuse to accept. The blame for that does however lay almost solely on Duran.

I think this kind of covers it.

Even as 135 king there are clearly fights that Duran doesn't take all that seriously. I would add a touch of arrogance on Duran's part right after the Montreal victory.

p4p1 wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 00:28

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Guess I disagree with that analysis for multiple reasons.

First, we need to get away from the Duran was always a lightweight way of thinking. Most fighters move up. It's the rule, not the exception. Countless guys have done.
If done gradually (as Duran did) there is no reason why a guy can do just well. A guy weighing 135 at the ager of 20, can naturally grow to 147 or 154 by his late 20s. He loses a little speed, gains a little strength, just like the bigger opponents he is now facing. He is also more experienced.
(I would also argue that Duran was no better at 135 than 147. Don't see any evidence that is contrary to that.)

Duran's best weight was clearly at 135. It is where he more or less spent most of his prime. His punching power was much better at the weight. At 5'7 his frame was much more suited to the weight. Other than that he was on the wrong side of 30 for most of his post 135lb reign career and had already been a pro for 14+ years.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Duran was routinely fighting over 140 for several years before he even fought Leonard, an many other between 135-140. He actually had more fights over 135 than Leonard had fights. He was a natural 147 when he fought Leonard. It wasn't like he had very little exposure to 147 like Leonard had at 160 when he beat Hagler. Or a long layoff for that matter.

Poor argument. That doesn't mean he wasn't better at the 135lb limit. Plenty of champions through history have taken non-title fights over the weight limit in which they are champion. Plenty of fighters took part in similar practices between title fights. Again, just because your body naturally puts on weight as you get older doesn't mean that weight is your best fighting weight.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02
Even if you disagree with all this, think of it this way- Don't count the 3rd fight. In fact throw out all of Duran's losses after the 2nd fight. Leonard. Count winning a tough 15 round decision as equal to winning by TKO8.

They're not, however one guy was at his best weight, in the middle of his prime while the other one was above his best weight and coming to the end of his. That doesn't excuse Duran's behaviour but if Danny Lopez, Arguello, Pedroza, Serrano etc at 29 had jumped up in weight to challenge a 24 year old Duran and beat him, you would hold that against Duran in a way you don't hold against Leonard.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Mar 2022, 12:02 Who, overall, beat better opponents?
Fighter A and fighter B fought each other twice, and each won once. Without anything else to go on, they are even.
Fighter A never fought anyone else in the Top 50 of all time. Fight B beat 3 guys (lets call them Wilfred, Tommy and Marvin) that are in the top 50 of all time.
You would have rate Fighter B higher. And we normally do. Even by bending over backwards for Duran, Leonard still rates higher than Duran by how fighters are generally rated.

Does a scaled down Tommy Hearns last 15 rounds against a prime Duran at 135? Doubtful.
Does a 135lb version of Benitez have the same outcome as the 154lb version. Probably not, though Benitez's style would likely always give Duran problems. However at 135lbs Duran was a totally different animal.
Disregarding that Duran had his prime years at or around 135lbs is absurd. Of the 4 kings, I he is the only one who fought the other 3 (and throw in Benítez if you want to) at their best weight while he wasn't at his.

Like I said above, personally, I don't think there is a lot in it. I give the edge to Duran, His win against a prime Leonard being one of those reasons. That he was able to still have so much success in his 30's above his best weight while not having a frame that was all that great for those weights at the time is a testament to how great he really was. If Leonard didn't have his eye issues etc the argument could be null and void, but after Leonard beat Duran for the first time he only had 8 more wins. Longevity in a sport like boxing is an important aspect when rating a career.

Ultimately, it all comes down to excuses. Duran would have if it wasn't for this. Another guy would not have have been as good if it was for this or that..
5 months somehow is not enough time. etc. etc.
It's not absurd to to say that Duran's prime was just at light weight. Everybody moves up. Leonard did. Benitez. Hearns did. Tons of other guys did. He had fights at lightweight where he didn't look that great. He wasn't old at all when Leonard beat him. He had plenty of time to get used to the weight.

As for Duran-Hearns and 135- We never do that with anyone else. Ever. Again with Duran we have to come with weird scenarios that we never use with anyone else.

Longevity doesn't mean anything by itself. It's what you do, not how long you did something. Leonard won more big than Duran. There are other guys who had a ton of fights that no one ranks that high. Nobody ever talks longevity any other time. Quality trumps quantity.

At a certain point, we have to factor in that Duran's competition at 135 was not as good as it was at 147 and 154.

Some people always try to make this out to be much more complicated than it is:

Leonard never lost to anyone like DeJesus in his prime.
Leonard never quit.
Overall, Leonard beat better competition. By far.

Roberto Duran was better.

Duran was a better Lightweight than Leonard at Welterweight. That's a fact.

Duran reigned longer at Lightweight than Leonard at 147. That's a fact.

Duran had more title defenses and more longevity in his weight class than Leonard did at 147. That's a fact

Duran's prime was longer than Leonard's. That's a fact.

Leonard in his career from 1982 to 1997, only fought 7 times! 7 times? WTF? His career was a COMPLETE JOKE after 1982. That's a fact.

Duran in that time frame? At least he fought more than 10 times. We don't have to count that!

When Duran was Lightweight World Champion in 1972, the great fighters like Marvelous, Wilfred Benitez, Sugar Ray Leonard nor Thomas Hearns weren't even professional fighters. Nobody knew them.

When Duran cleaned up the Lightweight division, (with the exception of Benitez), those guys were not even world champions, yet. And Duran reigned for almost 7 years!

Before and after Duran, most of the Lightweight champions were always challenged. For example, Carlos Ortiz was challenged by the featherweight champion Flash Elorde and Sugar Ramos. When Duran left, Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini was champion and was challenged by Bobby Chacon. Jim Watt was challenged by Sean O'Grady. Pernell Whitaker was challenged by Azumah Nelson. Edwin "Chapo" Rosario was challenged by Julio Cesar Chavez.

Why those champions at featherweight and jr Lightweight in Duran's reign never challenged him? Why? Ain't Duran's legacy would have been greater if he had beaten Wilfredo Gomez, Danny Lopez and Alexis Arguello? All-time greats that were smaller than he? Leonard fought guys smaller than he: Benitez and Duran.

I am not going with the what ifs. But, if Leonard fought great fighters at 147lbs was because Duran and Benitez moved up. The ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT was Hearns. We can talk all that crap about guys move up in weight all you want. Ezzard Charles was heavyweight champion. Nobody talks about that he was related to the heavyweight division but the light-heavyweight class. The same is said for Gene Tunney, Archie Moore and Bob Foster. They fought at heavyweight, but nobody say that they were heavyweights. Why that logic got to be put on Duran? He was a Lightweight. And at Lightweight he is related.

The other thing is Duran had to go to the other guy's weight class to fight. Leonard did that once against the fading Marvelous.

Leonard beat Hearns and Benitez at 147. Not at 154. Duran fought Benitez and Hearns at 154. A weight class way out of his frame. That's almost 20 pounds north of Lightweight.

Duran, a Lightweight, yes, a Lightweight whupped Leonard. I don't want to hear that it was a CLOSE FIGHT. Close fight, my ass!

Duran kicked his ass, at his weight class, in his prime, toe to toe! Ain't Sugar Ray was bigger, stronger, younger, faster, taller, had more reach and had Welterweight punching power against a coming up Lightweight? Yes!

Were Duran and Leonard at their very best and in great shape in Montreal for all the marbles? Yes!

Did Leonard fought "his fight"? Yes! He always fought every damn Welterweight that way. Why, now they are saying that he made a "mistake" fighting a Lightweight? That's where it didn't make sense whatsoever when the American media implied it. And the people believed it.

The American media wanted to make believe that it was a close fight. It wasn't my folks! It wasn't. Duran kicked his ass from post to post. Look at Sugar Ray's face before and after the fight. It was a mess. Nobody ever done that to him before. American boxing, American idol, the Golden Boy and American press were EMBARRASSED! That's what happened. They got EMBARRASSED by a guy that was considered a brute, that didn't had no skills, uneducated, no class bully, no English, Latino, disresoected Sugar Ray's wife, a bad threat and bad guy to the American agenda. Duran could not be #1.

Sugar Ray's career was very short. Duran started before him at least 10 years before Sugar Ray turned pro. That's a lot of years!

When Leonard was 33, he was done! Duran at 33 was the champion when he beat Davey Moore. Leonard at 37 was retired and done. Duran at 37 was the middleweight champion? That gotta be one of the most incredible feats on boxing history. A seventeen-year gap and a 25-pound difference between Lightweight and middleweight. Think about that! And I am not adding that he fought 5 decades. That doesn't matter to me. What matters to me that in a 17-year gap between 1972 and 1989, he was at least a champion and one of the best fighters in the world. Seventeen years in the ring is a long ass time. The average boxer fights for 10 to 12 years. And that's maybe a stretch.

Duran's career at middleweight was like if Leonard, a Welterweight, fights light-heavyweights. My question is when did Leonard fought AN EXCEPTIONAL light-heavyweight in his life? Duran fought Marvelous. And he did it first before Hearns and Sugar Ray. He was the first to have THE BALLS to challenge Marvelous! The first! Why Leonard didn't challenged Marvelous when Marvelous was in his prime?

Prime Duran, at his peak, was 72-1, with 56KOs! When we are going to see a record like that in our lifetime? Not now. That was the closest to Sugar Ray Robinson in our time. Sugar Ray was 29-1 when he had the retina issue? That's not even close! And I don't want to hear that Duran padded his record with tomato cans. I don't want to hear it. Anybody that knows boxing knows that that's an overrated statement. He fought what was in front of him. Some greats were petrified of fighting him. Ernesto Marcel, Vilomar Fernandez, Ken Buchanan, Carlos Palomino, Saoul Mamby, Esteban De Jesus, Ray Lampkin and Hector Thompson were good and some were great fighters. Two of those guys listed above should be in the hall of fame. Two are already in.
Duran beat them! Plain and simple!

If Duran would have retired after cleaning the Lightweight class, he would have been in the hall of fame and called an all-time great pound per pound fighter with the Lightweight career alone.

He became a greater pound per pound all-time great when he whupped the American Golden Boy. Duran was better.

Take some deep breaths Elmer.

41:50 mark

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 10:22

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

138lbs was still Duran's weight range (126-147lbs). It was at 154lbs and above that Duran had trouble. He could only fight good and be successful when someone was in front of him in those weight classes. But, with someone with movement at 154lbs and above, was where he had lots of trouble. And it showed.

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Roberto Duran won that fight outright! All Edwin Viruet did was acting like a damn clown.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 06:40 Take some deep breaths Elmer.

I think that you can't handle the truth!

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 10:22

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

Plus he was partying too much before this fight. We can't possibly count this. Otherwise it would look like Duran struggled with guys who could move. And there is no way that the greatest fighter ever was a quitter and struggled with guys that could move.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 12:12

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 10:22

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

Plus he was partying too much before this fight. We can't possibly count this. Otherwise it would look like Duran struggled with guys who could move. And there is no way that the greatest fighter ever was a quitter and struggled with guys that could move.

That’s unfair to say that. I dont know why it is but I know it must be because it’s Duran.

Maybe Duran should have made Viruet stand and fight like he did against Leonard in Montreal.

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 16:36 Maybe Duran should have made Viruet stand and fight like he did against Leonard in Montreal.

Don’t be unfair to Duran. Odds are always against him. Tragic.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 12:12

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 10:22

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 08:27 41:50 mark

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

Plus he was partying too much before this fight. We can't possibly count this. Otherwise it would look like Duran struggled with guys who could move. And there is no way that the greatest fighter ever was a quitter and struggled with guys that could move.

Sugar Ray Robinson struggled with guys that could fight inside. The same with Sugar Ray Leonard. Everybody has a weakness.

Duran in this fight won outright. What are you talking about. Maybe your dislike for him doesn't make you see straight or judge a fight. All Edwin Viruet did on the 2 fights with Duran was acting like a complete clown. That's all he did.

Duran won the 2nd fight by a wide margin, but Viruet really got under his skin and frustrated him in the first bout. When the fight ended it was obvious that Edwin had more left in the tank, and for all his punching power, hands of stone couldn't hurt him. The crowd knew it, and Duran sure seemed to have known it evidenced by his reaction to the booing of the decision.

Seamus wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 22:43 Duran won the 2nd fight by a wide margin, but Viruet really got under his skin and frustrated him in the first bout. When the fight ended it was obvious that Edwin had more left in the tank, and for all his punching power, hands of stone couldn't hurt him. The crowd knew it, and Duran sure seemed to have known it evidenced by his reaction to the booing of the decision.

I agree with that you have said. Edwin Viruet, from the NYC area was the underdog that played the clown and FRUSTRATED Roberto Duran. That Duran was frustrated that night, was a real fact. Duran got angrier and angrier as the fight progressed and couldn't hit Viruet cleanly like he did to other opponents. The moving and clowning was THE BLUEPRINT for Sugar Ray Leonard to follow it.

The PROBLEM with this fight was that you don't win by clowning. Viruet played to the crowd, and as the underdog, the fans in the arena loved it. He was frustrating a great fighter that was knocking out opponents brutally.

This was prime Duran where he only lost 1 fight in 73 contests. Viruet won the crowd, but Duran won the fight.

That was almost like the same scenario with Dick Ecklund fighting Sugar Ray Leonard. He was the underdog and when Leonard slipped and fell on the floor, the local crowd, which was in Ecklund's side, went crazy. Ecklund won the hearts of the crowd, but Sugar Ray beat him up.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 22:32

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 12:12

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 10:22

Yes but Duran had no English in that fight and Duran weighed 138lbs he couldn’t carry the weight. Poor guy was duped.

Plus he was partying too much before this fight. We can't possibly count this. Otherwise it would look like Duran struggled with guys who could move. And there is no way that the greatest fighter ever was a quitter and struggled with guys that could move.

Sugar Ray Robinson struggled with guys that could fight inside. The same with Sugar Ray Leonard. Everybody has a weakness.

Duran in this fight won outright. What are you talking about. Maybe your dislike for him doesn't make you see straight or judge a fight. All Edwin Viruet did on the 2 fights with Duran was acting like a complete clown. That's all he did.

Leonard could fight on the inside, it just wasn't his forte. He threw body punches, and had a good left hook.
The first fight could have gone to Viruet or been a a draw. It was very close.
In this fight, Viruet moved around fairly well and Duran struggled with that. True, you don't win fights by clowning. You win by landing punches and not having the other land punches. There is nothing in the rules that says that you have to stand still in the middle of the ring and slug it out. Neither Viruet or Duran landed many major punches. Viruet did land some clean punches from time to time.

If Leonard ever struggled with a guy like this you would never hear the end of it.
But for Duran, yet again, we are supposed to give him a free pass.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 11:05

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 22:32

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Mar 2022, 12:12

Plus he was partying too much before this fight. We can't possibly count this. Otherwise it would look like Duran struggled with guys who could move. And there is no way that the greatest fighter ever was a quitter and struggled with guys that could move.

Sugar Ray Robinson struggled with guys that could fight inside. The same with Sugar Ray Leonard. Everybody has a weakness.

Duran in this fight won outright. What are you talking about. Maybe your dislike for him doesn't make you see straight or judge a fight. All Edwin Viruet did on the 2 fights with Duran was acting like a complete clown. That's all he did.

Leonard could fight on the inside, it just wasn't his forte. He threw body punches, and had a good left hook.
The first fight could have gone to Viruet or been a a draw. It was very close.
In this fight, Viruet moved around fairly well and Duran struggled with that. True, you don't win fights by clowning. You win by landing punches and not having the other land punches. There is nothing in the rules that says that you have to stand still in the middle of the ring and slug it out. Neither Viruet or Duran landed many major punches. Viruet did land some clean punches from time to time.

If Leonard ever struggled with a guy like this you would never hear the end of it.
But for Duran, yet again, we are supposed to give him a free pass.

Sugar Ray Leonard struggled with Kevin Howard. He got a free pass. Nobody gave Roberto Duran a free pass with the Edwin Viruet fight. Viruet lost because he was more clowning than fighting.

Most people understand that when you aren't in the ring for more than 2 years like Leonard you aren't going to be as sharp.
Duran won a disputable decision when he wasn't rusty. You can call it "clowning" all that you want. Leonard, Ali, Tunney, Jones etc. did the same thing, only were much better at it. Duran got hit more than he should have and was not very effective offensively. Unimpressive performance by Duran.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 15:59 Most people understand that when you aren't in the ring for more than 2 years like Leonard you aren't going to be as sharp.
Duran won a disputable decision when he wasn't rusty. You can call it "clowning" all that you want. Leonard, Ali, Tunney, Jones etc. did the same thing, only were much better at it. Duran got hit more than he should have and was not very effective offensively. Unimpressive performance by Duran.

Everybody got a bad day at the office. Including Duran and Leonard.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 15:59 Most people understand that when you aren't in the ring for more than 2 years like Leonard you aren't going to be as sharp.
Duran won a disputable decision when he wasn't rusty. You can call it "clowning" all that you want. Leonard, Ali, Tunney, Jones etc. did the same thing, only were much better at it. Duran got hit more than he should have and was not very effective offensively. Unimpressive performance by Duran.

Surely the more often you fight or the more fights you had, the more likely you are to have off nights. Everyone in every sport has them, unfortunately for a combat sport its not only more noticeable, its also seen as far less forgivable. That's not an excuse in any way, just an observation. They happen and in my understanding 50+ years ago they were much more accepted by the fans. Now, and I am sure this is a biproduct of guys fighting far less then previously they are seen as unforgiveable etc.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 20:24

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑21 Mar 2022, 15:59 Most people understand that when you aren't in the ring for more than 2 years like Leonard you aren't going to be as sharp.
Duran won a disputable decision when he wasn't rusty. You can call it "clowning" all that you want. Leonard, Ali, Tunney, Jones etc. did the same thing, only were much better at it. Duran got hit more than he should have and was not very effective offensively. Unimpressive performance by Duran.

Everybody got a bad day at the office. Including Duran and Leonard.

Very true. Head to head Duran and Leonard are difficult to split. Maybe if they had 10 fights at their peak it would be five each or 6-4 one way or another.

I only rate Leonard slightly above Duran because he beat better fighters. Anyone who rates Duran higher is entitled to. Both all time greats.