BoxRec

Not sure why you would talking about tomato cans that Ali fought before the 1970 when we are talking about only the 1970s. But anyway....

Duran had way more tomato cans than Ali. Most of them were not even early in his career. They were after he was a contender. Surprising amount after he won the title.

Ken Norton is not a top 20 heavyweight? Well some people would argue that he is. Some would argue that DeJesus and Buchanan aren't.

By all means list all of the tomato cans that Ali fought in the 1970s. Remember Jurgin Blin doesn't count because he was an EBU champion and for you titles mean that a guy was good. I'm sure you would not go back on your word.
Would love to see how many you come up with.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 May 2022, 15:43 Not sure why you would talking about tomato cans that Ali fought before the 1970 when we are talking about only the 1970s. But anyway....

Duran had way more tomato cans than Ali. Most of them were not even early in his career. They were after he was a contender. Surprising amount after he won the title.

Ken Norton is not a top 20 heavyweight? Well some people would argue that he is. Some would argue that DeJesus and Buchanan aren't.

By all means list all of the tomato cans that Ali fought in the 1970s. Remember Jurgin Blin doesn't count because he was an EBU champion and for you titles mean that a guy was good. I'm sure you would not go back on your word.
Would love to see how many you come up with.

We don't have to go to the tomato cans debate. Both, Ali and Duran fought tomato cans. That is the BOTTOM LINE.

Ask Sugar Ray Robinson and also Willie Pep. They also fought a lot of tomato cans. That doesn't diminish the greatness of none of the 4 fighters.

Ken Norton is not a top 20 heavyweight. And he beat Ali 3 times in my book. Duran never lost to a man 3 times. And he never lost to an amateur of only 7 fights like Ali did. You got the point of why Duran was the best of the 70s decade?

Yes we do have get into the tomato cans that Ali fought in the 1970s. You said he fought a lot of them. Name them all. Should only take you a couple of minutes. Go ahead. Name them.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 May 2022, 16:04 Yes we do have get into the tomato cans that Ali fought in the 1970s. You said he fought a lot of them. Name them all. Should only take you a couple of minutes. Go ahead. Name them.

Well, here are the tomato cans:
Buster Mathis, Sr
Mac Foster
Alvin Blue Lewis
Rudi Lubbers
Chuck Wepner
Jean Pierre Coopman
Richard Dunn
Alfredo Evangelista
Leon Spinks
Jurgen Blin

Those are 10 tomato cans out of 30 fights he did in the 70s decade. He fought 17 tomato cans in the 60s decade, plus a washed up legend in Archie Moore and a beat up Floyd Patterson.
Cleveland Williams came back from a gunshot in his vertebrate. Zora Folley was already damaged goods. Brian London? Karl Middleberger? Great title defenses, right? Nothing to be scared about.

Every fighter in boxing history got a lot of fights with tomato cans. Duran nor Ali are the exception. You can't fight a tough opponent all the time. Tell me a fighter that did fought top fighters at all times?

Sorry elmer, but almost none of these guys were close to being tomato cans.
You have consistently maintained that winning a title is a big deal (even an insignificant one).

Richard Dunn, Alfredo Evangelista, Jean Pier Coopman, and Jurgin Blin all won the European title.
Rudy Lubbers won the prestigious Dutch title. And Mac Foster won one your favorite titles, the NABF title.
So we can't count any of them.
We can't count Spinks because he was in the top 10 when Ali fight him.
Buster Mathis? Anyone who saw him fight knows he wasn't a tomato can. WAs just outside of the top 10. He was 29-2 (one of the losses to Frazier) when Ali beat him.
So we are really down to just Al Blue Leiws and Chuck Wepner. They are really more of the journeyman category. They fought for many years and managed to win much more than they lost.

The 17 tomato cans that I mentioned that Duran beat did not have as good of a career as Wepner and Lewis.
Duran's competition was a joke compared to Ali's.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑19 May 2022, 15:42 Sorry elmer, but almost none of these guys were close to being tomato cans.
You have consistently maintained that winning a title is a big deal (even an insignificant one).

Richard Dunn, Alfredo Evangelista, Jean Pier Coopman, and Jurgin Blin all won the European title.
Rudy Lubbers won the prestigious Dutch title. And Mac Foster won one your favorite titles, the NABF title.
So we can't count any of them.
We can't count Spinks because he was in the top 10 when Ali fight him.
Buster Mathis? Anyone who saw him fight knows he wasn't a tomato can. WAs just outside of the top 10. He was 29-2 (one of the losses to Frazier) when Ali beat him.
So we are really down to just Al Blue Leiws and Chuck Wepner. They are really more of the journeyman category. They fought for many years and managed to win much more than they lost.

The 17 tomato cans that I mentioned that Duran beat did not have as good of a career as Wepner and Lewis.
Duran's competition was a joke compared to Ali's.

They were tomato cans to me. None of them gave Ali a hard fight. Ray Lampkin at least gave Duran one of his toughest fights. So, did Hector Thompson. That's what I am talking about.

Ali's best win was against George Foreman. A guy that was considered a bully and a brute after Ali knocked him out. He came back 10 years later after Jimmy Young gave him a boxing lesson. When Foreman won the a piece of the heavyweight title against Michael Moorer is that when they called him an all-time great.

That gave Ali more weight. That's like if Ken Buchanan retired and comes back ten years later, does good and wins a piece of the Lightweight title.

Ali in the 70s lost the biggest and most anticipated fight of all-time against Smokin' Joe.

Ali in the 70s lost clearly to Ken Norton 3 times. There was no money to make with Norton, so Ali was the cash cow.

Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson.

Ali lost to a seven-fight amateur in Leon Spinks.

Duran? He clearly dominated the Lightweight class with convincing fashion.

He only lost one fight out of 55 fights in the 70s. He avenged the loss, not once but twice.

Was Lightweight world champion for 7 years. Made 12 title defenses, and 11 of them were by knockout. He beat good opponents in his reign: Ray Lampkin, Esteban De Jesus, Vilomar Fernandez, Ken Buchanan, Ishimatsu Suzuki, Hector Thompson.

And other very good boxers outside Lightweight class: Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, Hiroshi Kobayashi, and Carlos Palomino.

Ten world class opponents. In the 70s decade.

You can't fight tomato cans all your life. Neither you can't fight top notch fighters every time you step into the ring. I haven't seen an all-time great fighter doing that.

You see the point?

None of them gave Ali a hard fight, so that makes them a tomato can? That is ridiculous. Guess it never occurred to you is that it may be because Ali was that good. You are actually criticizing Ali for winning too easily.
If Duran was as a great as you say he was, he would not have had so much trouble with the likes of Ray Lampkin and Hector Thompson. You are giving Duran credit for having way too much trouble against someone you would expect to beat easily.
elmer logic at it's best.

Ali beat Frazier two out of three. That is a helluva lot more impressive than beating DeJesus two out of three.
For years, you have constantly said in the past that if a guy wins a title. he must be good. Well most of those guys won titles.
No need to respond to the rest of your nonsense that you keep repeating.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 May 2022, 11:32 None of them gave Ali a hard fight, so that makes them a tomato can? That is ridiculous. Guess it never occurred to you is that it may be because Ali was that good. You are actually criticizing Ali for winning too easily.
If Duran was as a great as you say he was, he would not have had so much trouble with the likes of Ray Lampkin and Hector Thompson. You are giving Duran credit for having way too much trouble against someone you would expect to beat easily.
elmer logic at it's best.

Ali beat Frazier two out of three. That is a helluva lot more impressive than beating DeJesus two out of three.
For years, you have constantly said in the past that if a guy wins a title. he must be good. Well most of those guys won titles.
No need to respond to the rest of your nonsense that you keep repeating.

Ali NEVER beat a prime Joe Frazier. Frazier beat Ali in the greatest and most anticipated fight in history.

The guys that I mentioned that Ali beat were tomato cans. They didn't do nothing special nor beat any great heavyweight.

Ray Lampkin, Esteban De Jesus, Hector Thompson were very good and in their primes when they faced Duran. It's just that Duran was very good. Those 3 gave Duran some of his toughest fights. So, they got to be doing something good if they gave one of the true all-time greatest boxers ever a good scrap. Duran won the fights and passed the test. That's the mark of a great champion.

Whatever. elmer logic at it's best.
Duran struggling with a guy he should have beat easily somehow actually helps Duran's case.
Ali winning easily actually hurt's Ali's case.
Obviously it's more impressive to struggle with a guy like Lampkin or Thompson (who never beat anyone worth mentioning) than to beat him easily.

For more than 10 years he has been arguing that winning any title is a big deal. Except for when when Ali beats a guy who had a title. Then the guy is a tomato can.

When Ali beats Mac Foster who was ranked #5, Foster is a tomato can. Just like the guys that Duran beat who had records 1-5, or 3-6.

Makes total sense.

Ken Buchanan looks impressive in the carear highlights videos.
He had a Great Jab. Underrated elusive defensive movement as well.
He was deceptively Quick and Strong. Tricky,clever,smart,instinctual minded. Very Tough and Brave hearted Fighting Warrior Spirit. I could see him holding his own against any LW in any era. It Stinks what happened at the end of the 13th round vs Duran. The bell had already rung, before Ken was smashed in the testicles. I've always been a Huge fan of Duran, but that was for sure his Ugliest moment. They should have at least just simply gone to the cards,instead of ruling it as a Tko13. It then would have been a TD13 win for Duran, as kooky as that sounds.

Also, Buchanan Should've Definately been given an immediate rematch. From what I've researched, He Did in fact want another crack at Duran, but, Duran's management chose to avoid a rematch against the Very Skilled and Tough Scotsman.
I think that a second bout would've been Great, just as they're first bout was. Likely, Duran had Ken's number, based on the styles making fights aspect. Still would've been relatively close though. In they're first bout, Buchanan had his moments but Duran's pressure style and iron will was just a bit too overwhelming for the Game Scotsman. Like I stated though, I seriously think that Buchanan would've been a Tough opponent for literally any Great LW from Any Era ! His style was Quite awkward so it was Very difficult to catch Buchanan with a clean hard shot. And his Quick Powerful efficient jab would've given even Very fast tricky guys like Sweet Pea, some serious fits. Would Arguello land the home run punch against Buchanan..?
Maybe, but Ken had a Very Good Resilience to Ko Power Punches. I don't think that even the explosive thin man would've been able to put away the Very Game Scotsman Fighting Warrior.

Now, with Ali, my main criticism is that he,or his management, didn't give Foreman a rematch. For whatever reason. As I really think that he,or they,definitely Should've !
I can't Really just blame Ali though, cause, like Duran not rematching Buchanan, due to the decision of Duran's management, so too could've been the case with Ali not having a second bout versus Foreman.
Both Ali and Duran had Great credentials in the ring. Skills, Courage, Fortitude, Resilience, Iron Will, amongst other fighting Warrior attributes. So many hypothetical matches that one can drum up and imagine, pertaining to these Legends of the Ring. Ali vs Foreman 2, Prime Ali vs Prime Joe Louis, 1967 version of Ali vs 1982 version of Larry Holmes, Ali vs Lennox Lewis, Ali vs Mike Tyson,Ali vs Bowe, Ali vs Holyfield, Ali vs Wlad Klischko, Ali vs Tyson Fury,etc,etc.
Likewise for Duran...
Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez, Duran vs DelaHoya, Duran vs Pacqiou, Duran vs Sweet Pea, Duran vs Arguello, Duran vs Buchanan 2, Duran vs Henry Armstrong, Duran vs Benny Leonard,Duran vs Money Mayweather,etc,etc.
I'm not saying whether or not Ali, or Duran would win or lose to this guy or that guy. I see Boxing as being too unpredictable. It's almost actually like baseball in that regard. They're both highly respectable Legends and arguing who is better between them two is similar to arguing who is better between the comparisons of 1968 Bob Gibson vs 1985 Doc Gooden, or 2021 Jacob DeGrom and 1978 Ron Guidry. Or who is a better legendary batsman, Ty Cobb or Ted Williams...?
Tony Gwynne or Rod Carew...?