BoxRec

Willie Pastrano

JxhDel. wrote: ↑04 Sep 2022, 23:14 I would like to make a case for Kelly Pavlik, but I am not so sure about it.

well what White American Boxers have been a champion since Gene Fullmer was a champion ?.

People have already pointed out Giardello and Pastrano.

Paul Pender, Mike Rossman, Vito Antuofermo, and Ray Mancini all won the championship but were not great fighters.

Antuofermo wasn't American.

We are claiming him.

Wouldn't call Kelly Pavlik 'great" but if he had fought as often as The Middleweights
had done back in the 1940's, he probably been a lot better fighter.
( for example Paul Pender had fought 12 times in 1949 and 10 times in 1950 )

goose 5 wrote: ↑06 Sep 2022, 19:24 Antuofermo wasn't American.

Indeed, he was born and raised in Puglia, if I remember well

how good were Bobby Czyz and Vinney Pazienca ?

Good, not great. Much better than the average WBS titleholder; not nearly as good a truly great fighter.

what about Sean O'Grady ?
dude had 75 pro fights before he got a shot at the title.
sounds "old school" to me.

Old school in that he had a lot of fights. However, they were almost entirely against tomato cans and in or near his hometown.
In boxing, you can always find a guy that is easy to beat.
Hard to say how good O'Grady really was. He did seem to have some talent, but rarely was tested against a decent opponent. Take away the win over Hilmer Kenty and you don't have much.
O'Grady always seemed like a great guy when announced fights on the USA Network.

every once in a while you'll have at least a "throw-back" fight from a White American boxer to the older days..
Gene Hatcher must have been channeling the spirit of Jake La Motta or somebody here for the evening.
-1984-

Some trivia- 3 of the Moyer brothers ( of Portland Oregon )fought Sugar Ray Robinson !

Caractacus wrote: ↑12 Sep 2022, 14:38 Some trivia- 3 of the Moyer brothers ( of Portland Oregon )fought Sugar Ray Robinson !

No they didnt. Tommy fought Robinson in the amateurs, Denny and Phil fought him in the pros. Tommy was Denny and Phils uncle, not their brother.

this how fights must have been how fights were back around One Million Years BC.
-1959-

Ray Mancini I guess would be the closest you'd have since. Any other White fighters I could think of that were particularly accomplished weren't American.

It's kinda interesting that Pavlik and Ray Mancini are from the same area, and they're some of the more noteworthy examples that come to mind.

what about Ralph Dupas ( born in New Orleans and who won the light-Middleweight Championship in 1963)?
He looked pretty good to me and he fought a lot too.

Joe Smith Jr. and Caleb Plant I guess would be the best White American Boxers going at the moment. I can't see either quite reaching ATG status, but they've both had respectable careers for sure.

Smith's pulled quite a few upsets, and is never in a dull fight.

i just remembered scotty olson was a canadian.

Johnny Busso was pretty good too. He was a light-weight from the Lower East Side who fought between 1952-1961
and was trained at Stillman's Gym by Chickie Ferrara in the 1950's.

Ortiz told me directly that Busso was a very good fighter.

Caractacus wrote: ↑21 Dec 2023, 15:51 what about Ralph Dupas ( born in New Orleans and who won the light-Middleweight Championship in 1963)?
He looked pretty good to me and he fought a lot too.

"Ralph Dupas" doesn't look white at all.

He's Very Sicilian looking.

Could pass as Latino or Native American as well.

Even "Tommy Morrison" was only half-white(On his Dad's side).
His Mom was full-on, Full-Fledge Native American.
"Morrison" bleached his hair. Blonde of course. So he could easily pass for being full on white/caucasion.
Notice how tan he always was. That was his natural skin complexion, due to being half native. He didn't lay out in the California sun, like Hulk Hogan, or bake himself in a machine like the bodybuilder Jay Cutler.
"Danny Lopez" was also half native American(On his Dad's side)(Irish American on his Mom's side).

Yet Danny was pale as can be(Same complexion as Kelly Pavlik). Canelo is also Very Pale, especially for being half Mexican.
He also has an Irish Mom. It's kind of ironic and even peculiar how Morrison wanted to identify as a white guy. Different times were obviously the reason. I guess he figured he would appeal to more white boxing fans(Who are ultimately the majority of boxing fans). He was obviously using a business man's approach, or at least that was his mindset. He could've easily done the "Danny Lopez" type of thing(Indian Head-dress Crown) and decided to embrace his Native American ancestory over his Caucasian Ancestary.

Likewise, Danny Lopez could've easily passed for being simply another Caucasian boxer, but I guess, back in the 1970's the Indian Image had a very special mystique to it, enabling him to get that extra attention, whereas Tommy Morrison saw identifying as just simply a white heavyweight, was the ultimate way to maximize the business based profitability in the sport of boxing. He wanted that great white hope identity, and if he didn't bleach his hair blonde, then I guess he saw that as a deterrant to maximizing his white fan base. "Greg Haugen" was another half white half native american, with pale skin complexion. He also obviously preferred to identify as a white boxer.

It's all quite peculiar and rather intriguing.
I think that "Greg Haugen" could definitely be considered the last great white boxer(Due to beating Camacho). And he Did look at least 80-90% white.
As far as I'm aware though, he was only halfsie white(On his Dad's side). He had a Full on Native American Mom, just like Tommy The Duke Morrison. So really, technically, neither one could truly be considered White. Half Caucasian obviously doesn't make someone White. Exclusively White has to be at least 75-80%, at least in my own opinion and observances of humanity.

Greg Haugen looked tan next to Freddie Roach.
BTW do you know how many Americans ( whose ancestors were here prior to 1860)
particularly down South.
have at least some amount of Native Heritage ?

Caractacus wrote: ↑13 Jan 2024, 17:57 Greg Haugen looked tan next to Freddie Roach.
BTW do you know how many Americans ( whose ancestors were here prior to 1860)
particularly down South.
have at least some amount of Native Heritage ?

So called "Native Americans", or "American Indians", or "Feather Indians", etc, whatever you prefer amongst them various man-made Terminologies, are actually ultimately derived from Aztecs and Mongolians. Virtually all who have Native American/Indian American ancestry have Azteca and Mongolian Dna. Breaking it down as much as possible, whether you have Lenope, Cherokee, Iroquiou, Camanche, or Apache Indians in you're ancestary, then basically, when all is said and done, you ultimately have Mexican and Asian Dna in you're blood.

My Dad's side has Lenope Indian ancestary. This was made known to me in the 1980's, shortly after my grandfather passed away. In the 1970's they didn't even use the terminology of Native American. It was always Just simply, i have Indians in my ancestory, and you stated what specific tribe. This basically continued throughout the 1980's.
It was in the 1990's that certain political systems demanded that we use the terminology of Native American, instead of saying the word Indian. Then they started saying stuff like Feather Indian or Dot Indian(Obviously reference to people from the country of India.

The white settlers of certain islands in the 15 and 1600's saw the native villagers and assumed they had migrated from the country of India, and thus, that's when that terminology took off, ever so highly and widely. Really actually technically they were a mixed ethnicity people though, derived throughout South America, Azteca Lands, and Asian Lands.
Even my Dad scoffed at the terminology of Native American, and the claim that they were the first people in America.
My Dad was a very avid reader, of many books, and from what he personally gathered throughout his life, as a quarter breed Lenope Indian, was that it was in fact The Incas who came before The various Indian Tribes came into fruition.

I think it was Mongolian(Ancient Asian Exploration Conquorer people) who came into the Americas(Originally land of the Incas), who are basically from Azteca Lineage, and naturally, they mated with them, and thus, brought forth a hybrid based ethnicity of people, who typically had a rather strong resemblance to people in the country of India.

NYC use to have "smokers" all over the city,every week, up until about 1919.
-1905-
( professor Mike Donovan and Billy Edwards)