BoxRec

Controversial wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 10:43

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30

Controversial wrote: ↑09 Nov 2023, 13:45

So you will see I said it doesn't mean one punch finishes can't happen. However the other fights you mentioned the punches at least looked solid and the other guy looked legitimately out of it. The punch Ali landed he was going backwards and he hardly put anything into the punch. That coupled with the over dramatic rolling around by Liston plus Liston not looking genuinely hurt. It looked like he was trying to act knocked out. Then add the shady connections boxing and Liston had makes it looks even more suspicious. Didn’t the FBI investigate the fight or was that the first one?

For the Nunn and Curiel, we had camera up close, replays etc. To say Ali hardly put anything on the punch is an assumption. Liston was hit flush, went down and struggled to get back up. If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He landed a punch for sure but it certainly didn’t look much and didn’t land on the temple or point of chin so odd it had such a dramatic effect. My personal opinion was Liston wasn’t really as hurt as he was making out and was just waiting for the first half decent punch to drop. You can normally see when someone is on shaky legs or not quite with it but I didn’t see that with Liston. Agree to disagree.

He hit Liston on the jaw with such force that it makes Liston's head move quite a bit. It was the first round, so Liston may have been caught cold.

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 07:22

Controversial wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 10:43

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30

For the Nunn and Curiel, we had camera up close, replays etc. To say Ali hardly put anything on the punch is an assumption. Liston was hit flush, went down and struggled to get back up. If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He landed a punch for sure but it certainly didn’t look much and didn’t land on the temple or point of chin so odd it had such a dramatic effect. My personal opinion was Liston wasn’t really as hurt as he was making out and was just waiting for the first half decent punch to drop. You can normally see when someone is on shaky legs or not quite with it but I didn’t see that with Liston. Agree to disagree.

He hit Liston on the jaw with such force that it makes Liston's head move quite a bit. It was the first round, so Liston may have been caught cold.

One way of looking at it

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 08:14

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 07:22

Controversial wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 10:43

He landed a punch for sure but it certainly didn’t look much and didn’t land on the temple or point of chin so odd it had such a dramatic effect. My personal opinion was Liston wasn’t really as hurt as he was making out and was just waiting for the first half decent punch to drop. You can normally see when someone is on shaky legs or not quite with it but I didn’t see that with Liston. Agree to disagree.

He hit Liston on the jaw with such force that it makes Liston's head move quite a bit. It was the first round, so Liston may have been caught cold.

One way of looking at it

We'll never know for sure. I mean, if he was wanted to throw the fight, why get back up? That makes no sense to me.

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 08:22

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 08:14

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 07:22

He hit Liston on the jaw with such force that it makes Liston's head move quite a bit. It was the first round, so Liston may have been caught cold.

One way of looking at it

We'll never know for sure. I mean, if he was wanted to throw the fight, why get back up? That makes no sense to me.

He did get back up but waited until after count, the ref cocked it up though and let them fight on before stopping it

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 09:54

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 08:22

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 08:14

One way of looking at it

We'll never know for sure. I mean, if he was wanted to throw the fight, why get back up? That makes no sense to me.

He did get back up but waited until after count, the ref cocked it up though and let them fight on before stopping it

After being knocked down by a punch to the jaw, I don't think he would have been think about the finer details. Plus, as you point out, Walcott messed up the count, so Sonny won't have heard him count to ten.

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30 If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He did and then some, but Walcott screwed up the count to such a degree that he eventually just had to get up. I think the punch and the kd were legit, but it was just a flash knockdown and I'm sure Liston could have bounced right back up. For some reason known only to him he chose to quit.

If I were to speculate I think the delay of the fight had a negative effect on Liston. He probably wasn't as motivated as he should be, not as sharp as he had been for the original date. The fight then started off as a continuation of the first fight and when he was knocked down he probably thought screw this and stayed down. It's the perfect fight for conspiracy theories though.

hhaehre wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 18:33

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30 If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He did and then some, but Walcott screwed up the count to such a degree that he eventually just had to get up.

But he didn't have to get up.

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 18:43

hhaehre wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 18:33

jwfg wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023, 05:30 If he was faking it, why not just stay down, or get up at 10.1 seconds?

He did and then some, but Walcott screwed up the count to such a degree that he eventually just had to get up.

But he didn't have to get up.

I think he did, he had ran out of options as he could only flop around for so long. He could also have thought that he was already counted out.

hhaehre wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 19:58

jwfg wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 18:43

hhaehre wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 18:33
He did and then some, but Walcott screwed up the count to such a degree that he eventually just had to get up.

But he didn't have to get up.

I think he did, he had ran out of options as he could only flop around for so long. He could also have thought that he was already counted out.

The whole point of taking a dive is to go down and stay down. He didn't do that, because it wasn't a dive. He got hit flush by the greatest heavyweight ever, went down and stumbled to his feet. That's boxing.

Have you ever got up too quickly? You get dizzy, disoriented and your see stars. Now imagine trying to do that when you've just been decked by Mohammad Ali.

Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

No because you could see Berbicks legs had gone, he tried to stand straight away and couldn’t. When he was hit he froze and dropped backwards like he’d been shot. When he finally stood up the ref had to catch him from falling. Tyson was a huge puncher and caught him with a solid punch to the temple too. Liston kinda stumbled to the floor, put his arm out to break his fall and then rolled over and threw his arms back and started rolling around. His reaction didn’t look natural to me, especially to such an innocuous looking punch.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:23

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

No because you could see Berbicks legs had gone, he tried to stand straight away and couldn’t. When he was hit he froze and dropped backwards like he’d been shot. When he finally stood up the ref had to catch him from falling. Tyson was a huge puncher and caught him with a solid punch to the temple too. Liston kinda stumbled to the floor, put his arm out to break his fall and then rolled over and threw his arms back and started rolling around. His reaction didn’t look natural to me, especially to such an innocuous looking punch.

Berbick's reaction didn't look natural to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't real.

hhaehre wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:55

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

Thats what I think. I don't think Ali was in on it. Yes a punch landed but it didn't look that hard so something else was going on, Liston either took a dive as big money on a first round loss or he just decided he wasn't up for it and took an easy way out.

hhaehre wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:55

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Controversial wrote: ↑11 Nov 2023, 20:58 Except he didn’t look on shaky legs. You can normally see when someone is hurt but Liston just rolled around, it didn’t look a natural reaction to being hit by a concussive punch. The more I watch it the more laughable it looks.

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

The punch jars Liston's head and vibrates all the way up Ali's arm. Sonny goes down, struggles to get up and then does.

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:05

hhaehre wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:55

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

Thats what I think. I don't think Ali was in on it. Yes a punch landed but it didn't look that hard so something else was going on, Liston either took a dive as big money on a first round loss or he just decided he wasn't up for it and took an easy way out.

I do wonder quite often about that sort of thing. When a fighter gets knocked down and could get up, but chooses not to. I thought that about Helenius (vs Wilder), but how would we ever know for sure. I mean, I think the Tua-Moorer was 100% legit, but other's think he could have got up.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:15

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:05

hhaehre wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:55
You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

Thats what I think. I don't think Ali was in on it. Yes a punch landed but it didn't look that hard so something else was going on, Liston either took a dive as big money on a first round loss or he just decided he wasn't up for it and took an easy way out.

I do wonder quite often about that sort of thing. When a fighter gets knocked down and could get up, but chooses not to. I thought that about Helenius (vs Wilder), but how would we ever know for sure. I mean, I think the Tua-Moorer was 100% legit, but other's think he could have got up.

I'm sure it goes on more than we think, boxing is probably the most corrupt sport in the world, especially in times when it was run by the mob or fighters had their contracts owned by them.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:15

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:05

hhaehre wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:55
You're not seriously comparing the phantom punch with the punch Berbick took from Tyson are you? To me the phantom punch didn't look hard enough to knock out Liston and Liston looked like he was faking it. Doesn't mean it was preplanned, I don't think it was, but imo he threw the fight.

Thats what I think. I don't think Ali was in on it. Yes a punch landed but it didn't look that hard so something else was going on, Liston either took a dive as big money on a first round loss or he just decided he wasn't up for it and took an easy way out.

I do wonder quite often about that sort of thing. When a fighter gets knocked down and could get up, but chooses not to. I thought that about Helenius (vs Wilder), but how would we ever know for sure. I mean, I think the Tua-Moorer was 100% legit, but other's think he could have got up.

Quite often you'll see fighters get up just after the count. Doesn't mean the fix was in, I think it's usually just a way to get out of a fight they no longer wan't to be in.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:03

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:23

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 07:59

Trevor Berbick fell all over the place against Tyson. It was far more theatrical than Liston. Plus he went down long after the punch had been thrown. Was that fake?

No because you could see Berbicks legs had gone, he tried to stand straight away and couldn’t. When he was hit he froze and dropped backwards like he’d been shot. When he finally stood up the ref had to catch him from falling. Tyson was a huge puncher and caught him with a solid punch to the temple too. Liston kinda stumbled to the floor, put his arm out to break his fall and then rolled over and threw his arms back and started rolling around. His reaction didn’t look natural to me, especially to such an innocuous looking punch.

Berbick's reaction didn't look natural to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't real.

You must be the only person on the planet to think this way then. The Liston rematch has been the subject of books, newspaper articles, TV etc and still questioned by people almost 60 years later. I don't recall anyone saying they thought the Berbick fight was dodgy.

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:31

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:03

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 09:23

No because you could see Berbicks legs had gone, he tried to stand straight away and couldn’t. When he was hit he froze and dropped backwards like he’d been shot. When he finally stood up the ref had to catch him from falling. Tyson was a huge puncher and caught him with a solid punch to the temple too. Liston kinda stumbled to the floor, put his arm out to break his fall and then rolled over and threw his arms back and started rolling around. His reaction didn’t look natural to me, especially to such an innocuous looking punch.

Berbick's reaction didn't look natural to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't real.

You must be the only person on the planet to think this way then. The Liston rematch has been the subject of books, newspaper articles, TV etc and still questioned by people almost 60 years later. I don't recall anyone saying they thought the Berbick fight was dodgy.

I didn't mean that the Berbick fight was anything other than legit. I was using it as an example of a fighter reacting strangely to being hit hard in the head. Like Liston.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:37

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:31

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 10:03

Berbick's reaction didn't look natural to me. That doesn't mean it wasn't real.

You must be the only person on the planet to think this way then. The Liston rematch has been the subject of books, newspaper articles, TV etc and still questioned by people almost 60 years later. I don't recall anyone saying they thought the Berbick fight was dodgy.

I didn't mean that the Berbick fight was anything other than legit. I was using it as an example of a fighter reacting strangely to being hit hard in the head. Like Liston.

Using that as a yardstick then you could say anyone hit on the head and falling over is just reacting strangely.

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 12:08

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:37

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:31

You must be the only person on the planet to think this way then. The Liston rematch has been the subject of books, newspaper articles, TV etc and still questioned by people almost 60 years later. I don't recall anyone saying they thought the Berbick fight was dodgy.

I didn't mean that the Berbick fight was anything other than legit. I was using it as an example of a fighter reacting strangely to being hit hard in the head. Like Liston.

Using that as a yardstick then you could say anyone hit on the head and falling over is just reacting strangely.

What I'm saying is, there isn't a general rule of thumb for how to fall when someone has taken a hard blow to the head.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 12:15

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 12:08

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:37

I didn't mean that the Berbick fight was anything other than legit. I was using it as an example of a fighter reacting strangely to being hit hard in the head. Like Liston.

Using that as a yardstick then you could say anyone hit on the head and falling over is just reacting strangely.

What I'm saying is, there isn't a general rule of thumb for how to fall when someone has taken a hard blow to the head.

Of course but some look more genuine than others, thats why there is controversy over some. Berbick didn't look odd, it was a delayed reaction and he fell like a sack of spuds, tried to get up too quickly and fell over. You can tell he looked scrambled. Liston for me didn't.

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 12:15

Controversial wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 12:08

jwfg wrote: ↑12 Nov 2023, 11:37

I didn't mean that the Berbick fight was anything other than legit. I was using it as an example of a fighter reacting strangely to being hit hard in the head. Like Liston.

Using that as a yardstick then you could say anyone hit on the head and falling over is just reacting strangely.

What I'm saying is, there isn't a general rule of thumb for how to fall when someone has taken a hard blow to the head.

Most people, myself included, does not regard the phantom punch as "a hard blow to the head". It was little more than an arm punch.