BoxRec

Coco wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 20:16 Fighters like Danny Thorpe and Jason Nesbitt could bang

A mate boxed Thorpe and got the shock of his life in the opening 30 seconds. I think Thorpe was another who chose to go down that route.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 22:19

wrighty wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 12:05

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑08 Mar 2023, 22:44 Hard to say. Basically all heavyweights hit hard. I'll throw in Cliff Field. 11 wins, 10 kayos, 4 losses all by kayo as well. He gained his reputation mainly through the old white collar circuit because he blew away Lenny McLean twice in one round.

But despite his reputation in the white collar circuit it didn't quite translate into championship level boxing. Probably the biggest name on his record was Richard Dunn who would later become European champion, and Cliff was stopped due to cuts in the 4th round. He was prone to cuts and if I'm not mistaken he actually was blind in one eye.

I'd probably throw in Paul Sykes as well, even though he did fight John L Gardner for the British title but his overall record wasn't all that good. Sykes had been an amateur weightlifter and pretty strong individual with pretty good hitting power. Another of those hard cases that got a lot of fame from stories of their toughness, but basically was a journeyman type.

I think he was runner up in the 73 ABAs losing to Nevile Meade

Sykes was also a talented amateur boxer as well as a weightlifter that is true. Had he fought in the unlicensed boxing circuit like so many tried to talk him into he would have been head and shoulders above them all including Cliff Field.

However, because Paul Sykes had a horrible drinking problem as well as a notorious temper that got him thrown into prison off and on over the years he basically turned into a journeyman heavyweight.

Kind of a sad state of affairs considering the man was a sparring partner for Joe Frazier at one point when Joe came over to England. Unfortunately he's remembered for being more or less a nutcase rather than a capable boxer.

I don't want to reignite yet another Paul Sykes discussion but Sykes wasn't a journeyman, if anything he was a prospect.

Sykes - for all his faults - represented England as an amateur, should have won the ABAs in '73 (they reckon he was robbed in the semi against the eventual winner, Garfield McEwan) and was then due to turn pro but got banged up again.

When he came out of nick, Sykes was in his 30s so he was rushed. But he was always seen as a prospect. I can't see how Sykes was ever a journeyman, he was always the 'home fighter' until he fought for the British title (which, in itself, isn't a very journeyman thing to be doing).

The only oddity is his last contest where he travelled to Nigeria and got KOd in a round. Lord knows what happened there. Other than that, it was all about trying to fast-track Sykes to the top. Which is the opposite of being a journeyman really.

pretty sure you've told HH all of that about Sykes before

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 07:09

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 22:19

wrighty wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 12:05
I think he was runner up in the 73 ABAs losing to Nevile Meade

Sykes was also a talented amateur boxer as well as a weightlifter that is true. Had he fought in the unlicensed boxing circuit like so many tried to talk him into he would have been head and shoulders above them all including Cliff Field.

However, because Paul Sykes had a horrible drinking problem as well as a notorious temper that got him thrown into prison off and on over the years he basically turned into a journeyman heavyweight.

Kind of a sad state of affairs considering the man was a sparring partner for Joe Frazier at one point when Joe came over to England. Unfortunately he's remembered for being more or less a nutcase rather than a capable boxer.

I don't want to reignite yet another Paul Sykes discussion but Sykes wasn't a journeyman, if anything he was a prospect.

Sykes - for all his faults - represented England as an amateur, should have won the ABAs in '73 (they reckon he was robbed in the semi against the eventual winner, Garfield McEwan) and was then due to turn pro but got banged up again.

When he came out of nick, Sykes was in his 30s so he was rushed. But he was always seen as a prospect. I can't see how Sykes was ever a journeyman, he was always the 'home fighter' until he fought for the British title (which, in itself, isn't a very journeyman thing to be doing).

The only oddity is his last contest where he travelled to Nigeria and got KOd in a round. Lord knows what happened there. Other than that, it was all about trying to fast-track Sykes to the top. Which is the opposite of being a journeyman really.

Apparently the fella has kids everywhere even in Nigeria. There is a Dewsbury Rams player called Paul Sykes who is a spitting image but allegedly they aren't related.

Coco wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 20:16 Fighters like Danny Thorpe and Jason Nesbitt could bang

Saw nesbitt stop a lad who sold 100+ tickets on debut in Walsall. Was talking to him on the stage and a promoter walked past he asked if their was anything go on his show next week. The promoter looked and said what do think after that....

maley1984 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 08:34

Coco wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 20:16 Fighters like Danny Thorpe and Jason Nesbitt could bang

Saw nesbitt stop a lad who sold 100+ tickets on debut in Walsall. Was talking to him on the stage and a promoter walked past he asked if their was anything go on his show next week. The promoter looked and said what do think after that....

Why have I got an image of two Nigerian pirates, one telling the other to get in the water and swim
After something.

‘But boss what about the sharks?’
‘Punch em on the nose lad!!’

Kasi Kaihau.

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 07:09

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 22:19

wrighty wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 12:05
I think he was runner up in the 73 ABAs losing to Nevile Meade

Sykes was also a talented amateur boxer as well as a weightlifter that is true. Had he fought in the unlicensed boxing circuit like so many tried to talk him into he would have been head and shoulders above them all including Cliff Field.

However, because Paul Sykes had a horrible drinking problem as well as a notorious temper that got him thrown into prison off and on over the years he basically turned into a journeyman heavyweight.

Kind of a sad state of affairs considering the man was a sparring partner for Joe Frazier at one point when Joe came over to England. Unfortunately he's remembered for being more or less a nutcase rather than a capable boxer.

I don't want to reignite yet another Paul Sykes discussion but Sykes wasn't a journeyman, if anything he was a prospect.

Sykes - for all his faults - represented England as an amateur, should have won the ABAs in '73 (they reckon he was robbed in the semi against the eventual winner, Garfield McEwan) and was then due to turn pro but got banged up again.

When he came out of nick, Sykes was in his 30s so he was rushed. But he was always seen as a prospect. I can't see how Sykes was ever a journeyman, he was always the 'home fighter' until he fought for the British title (which, in itself, isn't a very journeyman thing to be doing).

The only oddity is his last contest where he travelled to Nigeria and got KOd in a round. Lord knows what happened there. Other than that, it was all about trying to fast-track Sykes to the top. Which is the opposite of being a journeyman really.

You know as well as I do just because somebody seems to be a prospect on the basis of their amateur career does not mean that they will have a successful pro career.

He might have been seen as a prospect in the eyes of some but because of his own irrational behavior and piss poor decisions he simply didn't have a successful pro career.

To this day Sykes holds the record for somebody having the least amount of fights coming into a British title match so because he was fast tracked you could argue he was in that journeyman bracket but because of his reputation he was given an opportunity he probably didn't deserve.

And just because somebody is good or great within their own country does not mean that they are good or great around the world. So in the grand scheme of things on the world stage Paul Sykes would have been a journeyman anyways.

The one thing I will give you though is that there are a lot of disparities between the different levels of boxers and the journeyman bracket is the largest field in the sport. I think one could argue that Paul Sykes was a high level journeyman but I don't think he ever was some trial horse or gatekeeper.

John Fury fought in the British title eliminators and he was a journeyman. So it really isn't a stretch to call Paul Sykes a journeyman as well considering he had a handful of fights when facing Gardner for the British title.

To avoid confusion about what a journeyman is.

In boxing there is a home corner and an away corner.

In the home corner you have the promoters boy, and the promoter picks an opponent for his boy, an opponent he thinks his boy will beat.

If you spend the vast majority of your career in the away corner, fighting regularly, where you have been hand picked to get beat, you are a journeyman

Coco wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:31 To avoid confusion about what a journeyman is.

In boxing there is a home corner and an away corner. Otherwise you could classify me as being a journeyman when to my own mind I was at best a second tiersman.

In the home corner you have the promoters boy, and the promoter picks an opponent for his boy, an opponent he thinks his boy will beat.

If you spend the vast majority of your career in the away corner, fighting regularly, where you have been hand picked to get beat, you are a journeyman

That's one way of looking at it but too simple.

I would say there are low-end journeymen and there are high-end journeymen. Low-end types have wins over first and second tiersmen but cannot get over hump. High-end types have wins over low-end types, as well as tiersmen, and occasionally might (keyword) beat a trial horse.

Trial horses are solid 10 round boxers who can be spoilers beating prospects and gatekeepers every once in awhile. Someone like Ross Puritty comes to mind.

maley1984 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 08:34

Coco wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 20:16 Fighters like Danny Thorpe and Jason Nesbitt could bang

Saw nesbitt stop a lad who sold 100+ tickets on debut in Walsall. Was talking to him on the stage and a promoter walked past he asked if their was anything go on his show next week. The promoter looked and said what do think after that....

Jason could certainly punch. And I've no doubt your story is true. But the coda to it is that it's an example of why the journeyman refrain of "if I win, I won't get any work - the phone stops ringing" is not always true. The fight you're referring to was Nesbitt stopping Ryan Nandha in 18 seconds on 1 March 2014. He then fought on 14 March and 28 March, so three contests in a month. However, he was careful not to win again before the end of his career.

PS - I agree entirely with Coco's definition of journeyman.

olij999 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:41

maley1984 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 08:34

Coco wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 20:16 Fighters like Danny Thorpe and Jason Nesbitt could bang

Saw nesbitt stop a lad who sold 100+ tickets on debut in Walsall. Was talking to him on the stage and a promoter walked past he asked if their was anything go on his show next week. The promoter looked and said what do think after that....

Jason could certainly punch. And I've no doubt your story is true. But the coda to it is that it's an example of why the journeyman refrain of "if I win, I won't get any work - the phone stops ringing" is not always true. The fight you're referring to was Nesbitt stopping Ryan Nandha in 18 seconds on 1 March 2014. He then fought on 14 March and 28 March, so three contests in a month. However, he was careful not to win again before the end of his career.

PS - I agree entirely with Coco's definition of journeyman.

U got the right fight. Didnt think it was so quick tho. Thought it went a couple rounds. Could b wrong tho. Saw plenty of Nesbitt when he let his hands go he was a handful but like u say wudnt keep him busy doing so.
Was u at that show

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:40

Coco wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:31 To avoid confusion about what a journeyman is.

In boxing there is a home corner and an away corner. Otherwise you could classify me as being a journeyman when to my own mind I was at best a second tiersman.

In the home corner you have the promoters boy, and the promoter picks an opponent for his boy, an opponent he thinks his boy will beat.

If you spend the vast majority of your career in the away corner, fighting regularly, where you have been hand picked to get beat, you are a journeyman

That's one way of looking at it but too simple.

I would say there are low-end journeymen and there are high-end journeymen. Low-end types have wins over first and second tiersmen but cannot get over hump. High-end types have wins over low-end types, as well as tiersmen, and occasionally might (keyword) beat a trial horse.

Trial horses are solid 10 round boxers who can be spoilers beating prospects and gatekeepers every once in awhile. Someone like Ross Puritty comes to mind.

Absolute tripe.

Every single sentence of that post.

Paul Sykes wasn’t a journeyman. Nor was John Fury.

Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 09:21 Kasi Kaihau.

Great shout with The Prince

Around the same time Dennis Berry could bang as well

jameswilson wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 11:40

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:40

Coco wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 10:31 To avoid confusion about what a journeyman is.

In boxing there is a home corner and an away corner. Otherwise you could classify me as being a journeyman when to my own mind I was at best a second tiersman.

In the home corner you have the promoters boy, and the promoter picks an opponent for his boy, an opponent he thinks his boy will beat.

If you spend the vast majority of your career in the away corner, fighting regularly, where you have been hand picked to get beat, you are a journeyman

That's one way of looking at it but too simple.

I would say there are low-end journeymen and there are high-end journeymen. Low-end types have wins over first and second tiersmen but cannot get over hump. High-end types have wins over low-end types, as well as tiersmen, and occasionally might (keyword) beat a trial horse.

Trial horses are solid 10 round boxers who can be spoilers beating prospects and gatekeepers every once in awhile. Someone like Ross Puritty comes to mind.

Absolute tripe.

Every single sentence of that post.

It's not.

There are eight or ten different levels to boxing and you all are ascribing journeyman status to people who are really trial horses and gatekeepers. There are nuances to this sport, and calling a designated loser who travels a journeyman is not accurate. That's a first or second tiersman and maybe a low-level journeyman at best.

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 09:37

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 07:09

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 22:19

Sykes was also a talented amateur boxer as well as a weightlifter that is true. Had he fought in the unlicensed boxing circuit like so many tried to talk him into he would have been head and shoulders above them all including Cliff Field.

However, because Paul Sykes had a horrible drinking problem as well as a notorious temper that got him thrown into prison off and on over the years he basically turned into a journeyman heavyweight.

Kind of a sad state of affairs considering the man was a sparring partner for Joe Frazier at one point when Joe came over to England. Unfortunately he's remembered for being more or less a nutcase rather than a capable boxer.

I don't want to reignite yet another Paul Sykes discussion but Sykes wasn't a journeyman, if anything he was a prospect.

Sykes - for all his faults - represented England as an amateur, should have won the ABAs in '73 (they reckon he was robbed in the semi against the eventual winner, Garfield McEwan) and was then due to turn pro but got banged up again.

When he came out of nick, Sykes was in his 30s so he was rushed. But he was always seen as a prospect. I can't see how Sykes was ever a journeyman, he was always the 'home fighter' until he fought for the British title (which, in itself, isn't a very journeyman thing to be doing).

The only oddity is his last contest where he travelled to Nigeria and got KOd in a round. Lord knows what happened there. Other than that, it was all about trying to fast-track Sykes to the top. Which is the opposite of being a journeyman really.

You know as well as I do just because somebody seems to be a prospect on the basis of their amateur career does not mean that they will have a successful pro career.

He might have been seen as a prospect in the eyes of some but because of his own irrational behavior and piss poor decisions he simply didn't have a successful pro career.

To this day Sykes holds the record for somebody having the least amount of fights coming into a British title match so because he was fast tracked you could argue he was in that journeyman bracket but because of his reputation he was given an opportunity he probably didn't deserve.

And just because somebody is good or great within their own country does not mean that they are good or great around the world. So in the grand scheme of things on the world stage Paul Sykes would have been a journeyman anyways.

The one thing I will give you though is that there are a lot of disparities between the different levels of boxers and the journeyman bracket is the largest field in the sport. I think one could argue that Paul Sykes was a high level journeyman but I don't think he ever was some trial horse or gatekeeper.

John Fury fought in the British title eliminators and he was a journeyman. So it really isn't a stretch to call Paul Sykes a journeyman as well considering he had a handful of fights when facing Gardner for the British title.

Well, you could argue that Sykes was in that journeyman bracket, but you'd still be wrong. He was fast-tracked to a British title because he was a prospect; journeymen don't get fast tracked like he did. Sykes was lined up to fight Leroy Jones had he beaten Gardner ie. effectively a world title eliminator for a crack at Larry Holmes.

Sykes was always in the home corner until he fought for the title, which again runs contrary to the notion of him being a journeyman (see Coco's accurate definition above).

No comparison between John Fury and Paul Sykes. Fury had few skills, no amateur career and never fought for the British title. Sykes boxed for England and was a big noise when he turned pro. They were flying opponents in from America and Africa to fast track him. Yancey Durham wanted Sykes to turn pro in the US but Durham died and Sykes got banged up instead.

Basically, journeyman fight frequently, they're used as trial horses for up and coming fighters, and they're normally on the road. None of those things applied to Paul Sykes, he wasn't a journeyman whatever you think of him.

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 11:53

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 09:37

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 07:09

I don't want to reignite yet another Paul Sykes discussion but Sykes wasn't a journeyman, if anything he was a prospect.

Sykes - for all his faults - represented England as an amateur, should have won the ABAs in '73 (they reckon he was robbed in the semi against the eventual winner, Garfield McEwan) and was then due to turn pro but got banged up again.

When he came out of nick, Sykes was in his 30s so he was rushed. But he was always seen as a prospect. I can't see how Sykes was ever a journeyman, he was always the 'home fighter' until he fought for the British title (which, in itself, isn't a very journeyman thing to be doing).

The only oddity is his last contest where he travelled to Nigeria and got KOd in a round. Lord knows what happened there. Other than that, it was all about trying to fast-track Sykes to the top. Which is the opposite of being a journeyman really.

You know as well as I do just because somebody seems to be a prospect on the basis of their amateur career does not mean that they will have a successful pro career.

He might have been seen as a prospect in the eyes of some but because of his own irrational behavior and piss poor decisions he simply didn't have a successful pro career.

To this day Sykes holds the record for somebody having the least amount of fights coming into a British title match so because he was fast tracked you could argue he was in that journeyman bracket but because of his reputation he was given an opportunity he probably didn't deserve.

And just because somebody is good or great within their own country does not mean that they are good or great around the world. So in the grand scheme of things on the world stage Paul Sykes would have been a journeyman anyways.

The one thing I will give you though is that there are a lot of disparities between the different levels of boxers and the journeyman bracket is the largest field in the sport. I think one could argue that Paul Sykes was a high level journeyman but I don't think he ever was some trial horse or gatekeeper.

John Fury fought in the British title eliminators and he was a journeyman. So it really isn't a stretch to call Paul Sykes a journeyman as well considering he had a handful of fights when facing Gardner for the British title.

Well, you could argue that Sykes was in that journeyman bracket, but you'd still be wrong. He was fast-tracked to a British title because he was a prospect; journeymen don't get fast tracked like he did. Sykes was lined up to fight Leroy Jones had he beaten Gardner ie. effectively a world title eliminator for a crack at Larry Holmes.

Sykes was always in the home corner until he fought for the title, which again runs contrary to the notion of him being a journeyman (see Coco's accurate definition above).

No comparison between John Fury and Paul Sykes. Fury had few skills, no amateur career and never fought for the British title. Sykes boxed for England and was a big noise when he turned pro. They were flying opponents in from America and Africa to fast track him. Yancey Durham wanted Sykes to turn pro in the US but Durham died and Sykes got banged up instead.

Basically, journeyman fight frequently, they're used as trial horses for up and coming fighters, and they're normally on the road. None of those things applied to Paul Sykes, he wasn't a journeyman whatever you think of him.

He might've been a prospect in Great Britain but I'm not so sure I buy into him being a prospect on the world stage. At any rate how his career ended up and how his overall record came out to be is basically the record of a high-end journeyman.

But I'll grant it to you that I'm wrong.

Though I do disagree with the definition of a journeyman because if it is strictly about somebody being a designated loser coming to someone else's hometown or whatever then you could classify me as a journeyman.

I never personally saw myself as a journeyman, because to my mind a journeyman is the third level in professional boxing. It's the biggest level cuz it has the most participants in it, but they have wins over first and second tiersmen.

I've seen some really crappy guys be described as journeyman boxers and I don't think it really applies to them. Just because somebody is flown in to be a body does not make them a journeyman. A journeyman can actually fight a little, and on occasion pull off an upset.

A journeyman is not how good you are or not.

Johnny Fisher is prob below British title level, but if he picked up 15 wins then lost in his British title fight, would that make him a journeyman?

Or someone of a higher level like Howard Clarke, who was even an opponent in a world title fight, but always the opponent........

A journeyman can certainly look after himself as physically it would be impossible to survive fighting regularly in the away corner.

At what point do you become a journeyman?

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 12:09

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 11:53

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 09:37

You know as well as I do just because somebody seems to be a prospect on the basis of their amateur career does not mean that they will have a successful pro career.

He might have been seen as a prospect in the eyes of some but because of his own irrational behavior and piss poor decisions he simply didn't have a successful pro career.

To this day Sykes holds the record for somebody having the least amount of fights coming into a British title match so because he was fast tracked you could argue he was in that journeyman bracket but because of his reputation he was given an opportunity he probably didn't deserve.

And just because somebody is good or great within their own country does not mean that they are good or great around the world. So in the grand scheme of things on the world stage Paul Sykes would have been a journeyman anyways.

The one thing I will give you though is that there are a lot of disparities between the different levels of boxers and the journeyman bracket is the largest field in the sport. I think one could argue that Paul Sykes was a high level journeyman but I don't think he ever was some trial horse or gatekeeper.

John Fury fought in the British title eliminators and he was a journeyman. So it really isn't a stretch to call Paul Sykes a journeyman as well considering he had a handful of fights when facing Gardner for the British title.

Well, you could argue that Sykes was in that journeyman bracket, but you'd still be wrong. He was fast-tracked to a British title because he was a prospect; journeymen don't get fast tracked like he did. Sykes was lined up to fight Leroy Jones had he beaten Gardner ie. effectively a world title eliminator for a crack at Larry Holmes.

Sykes was always in the home corner until he fought for the title, which again runs contrary to the notion of him being a journeyman (see Coco's accurate definition above).

No comparison between John Fury and Paul Sykes. Fury had few skills, no amateur career and never fought for the British title. Sykes boxed for England and was a big noise when he turned pro. They were flying opponents in from America and Africa to fast track him. Yancey Durham wanted Sykes to turn pro in the US but Durham died and Sykes got banged up instead.

Basically, journeyman fight frequently, they're used as trial horses for up and coming fighters, and they're normally on the road. None of those things applied to Paul Sykes, he wasn't a journeyman whatever you think of him.

He might've been a prospect in Great Britain but I'm not so sure I buy into him being a prospect on the world stage. At any rate how his career ended up and how his overall record came out to be is basically the record of a high-end journeyman.

But I'll grant it to you that I'm wrong.

Though I do disagree with the definition of a journeyman because if it is strictly about somebody being a designated loser coming to someone else's hometown or whatever then you could classify me as a journeyman.

I never personally saw myself as a journeyman, because to my mind a journeyman is the third level in professional boxing. It's the biggest level cuz it has the most participants in it, but they have wins over first and second tiersmen.

I've seen some really crappy guys be described as journeyman boxers and I don't think it really applies to them. Just because somebody is flown in to be a body does not make them a journeyman. A journeyman can actually fight a little, and on occasion pull off an upset.

Well, that's right you weren't a journeyman, for the reasons you describe. You were effectively flown in to be a body.

Sorry, that's harsh but it's true - and I'm only using the words you provide above.

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 12:29

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 12:09

Jaguar wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 11:53

Well, you could argue that Sykes was in that journeyman bracket, but you'd still be wrong. He was fast-tracked to a British title because he was a prospect; journeymen don't get fast tracked like he did. Sykes was lined up to fight Leroy Jones had he beaten Gardner ie. effectively a world title eliminator for a crack at Larry Holmes.

Sykes was always in the home corner until he fought for the title, which again runs contrary to the notion of him being a journeyman (see Coco's accurate definition above).

No comparison between John Fury and Paul Sykes. Fury had few skills, no amateur career and never fought for the British title. Sykes boxed for England and was a big noise when he turned pro. They were flying opponents in from America and Africa to fast track him. Yancey Durham wanted Sykes to turn pro in the US but Durham died and Sykes got banged up instead.

Basically, journeyman fight frequently, they're used as trial horses for up and coming fighters, and they're normally on the road. None of those things applied to Paul Sykes, he wasn't a journeyman whatever you think of him.

He might've been a prospect in Great Britain but I'm not so sure I buy into him being a prospect on the world stage. At any rate how his career ended up and how his overall record came out to be is basically the record of a high-end journeyman.

But I'll grant it to you that I'm wrong.

Though I do disagree with the definition of a journeyman because if it is strictly about somebody being a designated loser coming to someone else's hometown or whatever then you could classify me as a journeyman.

I never personally saw myself as a journeyman, because to my mind a journeyman is the third level in professional boxing. It's the biggest level cuz it has the most participants in it, but they have wins over first and second tiersmen.

I've seen some really crappy guys be described as journeyman boxers and I don't think it really applies to them. Just because somebody is flown in to be a body does not make them a journeyman. A journeyman can actually fight a little, and on occasion pull off an upset.

Well, that's right you weren't a journeyman, for the reasons you describe. You were effectively flown in to be a body.

Sorry, that's harsh but it's true - and I'm only using the words you provide above.

That's my whole point and I can't argue against me being called the body because that's what I was. That's why I don't think the definition quite fits.

Personally I think I was a 2nd tiersman, because I have no doubt in my mind that I could have beaten a lot of the 1st tiersmen floating about at the time but ultimately I never got the chance to prove it.

But there are nuances to this sport and that's why I've always tried to make a point that journeymen are their own special and unique grouping. They can fight a little, and go rounds, and sometimes on rare occasions pull off upsets. But they're not quite solid ten or twelve round fighters.

leejonesjnr wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 19:11

jameswilson wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 19:07

Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑09 Mar 2023, 18:57 Could Hastings Rasani be considered an honorary British journeyman?

People are posting people with 25-6 sort of records and former British champions so it’s hardly going to be the most ridiculous suggestion is it?

Pele was suggested because he has 6 losses, 5 by KO…. So I’m suggesting Mike Tyson…

Lol fair point. Pele Reid wasn’t a great choice, But at the end of is career he was fed to prospects and kod. Although he was a prospect originally himself.

However I stand by the Chris Saunders choice - he fought many prospects as the opponent / opposite corner and ended up with a 23 win(11 KOs) 23 losses (10 by ko) record. I don’t think you can argue that isn’t a typical journeyman’s journey or record.

Unless you define a journeyman by having an 100 losses and 5 wins ratio.

I mean Steve Robinson was considered a journeyman until he won against John Davison and also his last 6 contests as an opponent yet still won the WBO title

johnty1888 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 11:42

Teddy's Toupee wrote: ↑10 Mar 2023, 09:21 Kasi Kaihau.

Great shout with The Prince

Around the same time Dennis Berry could bang as well

I've known Kasi for over thirty years now. Did you ever watch him box?

If you win a domestic title, you are not a journeyman.