margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 01:49
and now today he'd further be cutting that 188 the day before the weigh in, since he doesnt have to weigh in and fight on the same day (see smith-barrera)
It's crazy because some commissions moved the weigh in forward even more for the health of the fighters so they would have more time to be properly hydrated. Of course this just resulted in bigger weight cuts because their is more time to rehydrate
exactly, these days fighters are jut going to try to put on as much extra size as possible
munguia made weight for 154, then fought at a cruiser weight on fight night. it's insane some of these cuts
I say cruiserweight because mind you these guys were 200+ pounds and trained down to 188. It wasn't like they were walking around at 188 and fighting at 188.
Why wouldn't he be fighting at 188? I'm sure he put on weight between fights, not disputing that at all. But I don't understand why you would be saying Schmeling wouldn't be around, if not the same weight as he weighed in at on fight night.
Back then the mindset was the lightest you could get the better off you were. I suspect that Schmeling in-between matches weighed somewhere between 200-210, and trained down to 188. He wasn't just standing around at 188 in-between bouts. That wasn't his natural weight. Back then fights happened the same day you weighed in.
If fighters today were forced to fight back then they either would have compete weight drained or they would have to fight around their natural walking weight.
All of these middleweights and light heavyweights today would be most likely fighting guys like Max Schmeling, Max Baer, Primo Carnera, etc--- or they would have to roll the dice being weight drained against guys like Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Tiger Flowers, etc.
I'm not disagreeing with that at all, I'm just not sure what that has to do with Schmeling's fight weight being 188, meaning he would likely be making 175 now to stay competitive. Whether the way Schmeling was getting to his fighting weight was hurting or helping him (I suspect helping him in those days) is an entirely different argument though.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 01:49
and now today he'd further be cutting that 188 the day before the weigh in, since he doesnt have to weigh in and fight on the same day (see smith-barrera)
It's crazy because some commissions moved the weigh in forward even more for the health of the fighters so they would have more time to be properly hydrated. Of course this just resulted in bigger weight cuts because their is more time to rehydrate
exactly, these days fighters are jut going to try to put on as much extra size as possible
munguia made weight for 154, then fought at a cruiser weight on fight night. it's insane some of these cuts
My understanding is that it all started with wrestlers in MMA. Wrestlers used to cut weight for meets but there is no face punching so it was nowhere near as dangerous to go into a competition dehydrated to make weight. It could give you a size advantage though because of the few hours you had to rehydrate before your match/s. Wresters carried the practise over from wrestling to MMA but knew they were able to 'safely' make bigger cuts and eventually boxers started to do the same. The issue of course is that being dehydrated while receiving head trauma is so much more dangerous than doing it for wrestling. IBF IMO have the right idea by doing multiple weigh ins, including hydration tests. Boxers take a lot more knocks than MMA guys do.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 01:49
and now today he'd further be cutting that 188 the day before the weigh in, since he doesnt have to weigh in and fight on the same day (see smith-barrera)
I don't think so because Schmeling started off as a middleweight in 1924 and by 1927 was just beginning his heavyweight years. He'd stop dabbling at 175 in 1928, and campaigned no lower than 181 from then on out. The highest he ever weighed as a heavyweight was 196 and 1/4 in 1948. He was in the 190s when he fought Joe Louis in 1936 and 1939.
So it's clear to me that he couldn't make 175 passed 1928 because he spent the next 20 years above light heavyweight. He already physically matured, etc. If he was around today with modern training it'd make more sense for him to put on 5 or 10 pounds of muscle to be a 200 pounder instead of losing weight to make 175 and rehydrate.
Especially when you figured that he was certainly tall enough (6'1"-6'2") and would have had natural speed advantages over men who were much bigger had he put on 5 or 10 pounds. But I think he'd campaign strictly as a cruiserweight today. It'd hurt him to get down to 175, and his success would eventually plateau at heavyweight today. So cruiserweight is the happy medium. He'd of knocked the crap out of BJ Flores, Tony Bellew, etc.
that's all with weigh ins on fight day, it simply doesnt work like that in the era of day before weigh ins. fighters get their weight down and then cut it further in fluids for the day before the fight, then add back on for fight night
eg sullivan barrera weighed in at 175 tthen fought the day later at 190
schmelling today would either be doing the same thing and fighting at light heavy, or he would add on more size for fight night to be a cruiser or heavy. no chance he'd be fighting at 188 as a heavy.
I maintain that guys like sullivan barrera either would have fought weight drained back then and never made it far, or they would have been forced to compete as heavyweights and they wouldn't have made it far either.
The guys today only exist in the sport at all to any major degree because of dehydration/hydration and junior/super weight classes today. If they had to compete like guys did back then they never would have made it far.
I'm an advocate for bringing back same day weigh ins. Either you are a real welterweight, middleweight, etc or you're not. Most of these guys are heavyweights campaigning at lighter weights by old standards.
And maybe I'm a little biased, but I think the guys back then were far Is more skilled and tough than the guys today. So I have no problems imagining Schmeling at 188 as a cruiserweight. He would overcome all that water weight the juice heads put on overnight.
that's simply not how things are done now, hence why absolutely no heavyweights fight at 188 pounds, and why guys coming up from lower weights all add size
the fighters and their trainers know their body best, yet none of them have an 188 pound guy fighting at heavyweight
today he'd either cut his 188 to fight at lhw, or add size to fight in higher divisions. maybe he'd be like adamek and go from lhw-cw-hw, bulking up as he went. that seems possible. but no heavyweights in the 180s.
Last edited by margaret thatcher on 21 Jun 2023, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 03:17
that's simply not how things are done now, hence why absolutely no heavyweights fight at 188 pounds, and why guys coming up from lower weights all add size
Cruiserweight is still 176-195 in many jurisdictions. 188 is perfectly fine. Schmeling most likely was 200-210 in-between matches. Losing 12-22 pounds to make 188 is perfectly reasonable for cruiserweight. He couldn't and wouldn't be a light heavyweight today. He was already going down in size to make 188 ffs.
he easily could make light heavyweight if he was weighing 188 on fight night. that's what light heavyweights today do, so why couldnt he?
ya, today's fighters get down to a lower weight , and get completely ripped, even more so than shmelling was. then from that weight they cut fluids, which they add on after the weigh in. shmelling getting in shape to 188 isn't the same thing; with fight night weigh ins he'd never has cut fluids, it would've been absolutely mind numbingly stupid anyway since he was a heavy
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 03:28
he easily could make light heavyweight if he was weighing 188 on fight night. that's what light heavyweight today do
lmao, there's no talking to you.
He was a 200 pounder who fought at 188-196.
He couldn't cut more weight if he tried.
Unless you want us all to believe that a guy can lose thirty pounds of water weight to make 175 and not be a zombie on fight night.
you obviously dont understand how it works...........fighters these days get their weight down as much as possible through training and diet, then shortly before the weigh in start cutting fluids. with the day before fight weigh ins, they have the time to add this weight back by taking in fluids.
so it would go something like -
shmelling: 205 between fights, gets into great shape at 188
today's guy: 205 between fights, gets into great shape at 190, cuts fluids to make 175, adds fluids back on over next day and now weighs 190 in the ring
do you really not know this by now? shmeling didnt cut fluids and add them back because (1) he weighed in on fight day and didnt have the time and (2) he had no weight limit to make so there was no point
and see - these light heavies got their weight down through training and diet, and clearly had less fat than shmelling (notice how much more defined they are). yet through modern weight cutting were able to still cut 15 pounds of fluid for the weigh in, then add it back by fight time
they are proof it can be done. and those aren't even among the biggest cuts. light heavy is prob more of a lucrative division today than cruiser, another reason for shmeling to cut rather than fight as a 188 cruiser. and certainly he wouldnt be 188 as a heavy
I think Schmeling would likely be a CW today because he probably walked around over 200 and trained down. He could make HW but all CWs can and most don't. And he could still beat some HWs too, the same as many decent CWs can have success against HWs. I just think he'd be more successful at CW.
Controversial wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 03:45
I think Schmeling would likely be a CW today because he probably walked around over 200 and trained down. He could make HW but all CWs can and most don't. And he could still beat some HWs too, the same as many decent CWs can have success against HWs. I just think he'd be more successful at CW.
Controversial wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 03:45
I think Schmeling would likely be a CW today because he probably walked around over 200 and trained down. He could make HW but all CWs can and most don't. And he could still beat some HWs too, the same as many decent CWs can have success against HWs. I just think he'd be more successful at CW.
if he can train down to the 180s, as he did repeatedly with fight day weigh ins, then he's lhw sized. basically the body double of joe smith, although not as ripped
most top cruisers today train down to about 210 and then cut.
but either way, no chance he'd be a heavy at his size, he'd definitely bulk up if that's where he wanted to be
Controversial wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 03:45
I think Schmeling would likely be a CW today because he probably walked around over 200 and trained down. He could make HW but all CWs can and most don't. And he could still beat some HWs too, the same as many decent CWs can have success against HWs. I just think he'd be more successful at CW.
if he can train down to the 180s, as he did repeatedly with fight day weigh ins, then he's lhw sized. basically the body double of joe smith, although not as ripped
most top cruisers today train down to about 210 and then cut
I'm sure he could get down the LHW with extreme cuts but again some CWs probably could that but don't.
it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme
many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 04:02
it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme
many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples
It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 04:02
it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme
many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples
It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .
Hopkins weighed in at 156 vs oscar and was 169 the next day - a higher percentage than shmeling would have to cut to get to 175
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 04:02
it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme
many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples
It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .
Hopkins fought oscar at 156 and was 169 the next day - a higher percentage than shmeling would have to cut to get to 175
he went from 170 to 180 against wright
he did it too
They all do it. Schmeling would pick lhw if it was more lucrative than cruiser or roid himself up to heavy and stay there, Holyfield style. No problem at all for him to cut weight and make lhw without same day weigh in.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 04:02
it wouldn't be an extreme cut, he's not a usyk or gassiev who weighed a shredded 212 and then drained to make cruiser. now something like them trying to make lhw would be extreme
many lhws weigh around mid-high 180s fight night, it wouldnt be uncommon. even fighters in lower divisions add more weight back than that. mw david lemieux and lmw jamie munguia for example put on over 20 pounds with the extra day after the weigh in. ww maidana put on 18 pounds for mayweather. victor ortiz weighed 146 vs berto then was 161 fight day........there are loads of examples
It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .
Hopkins weighed in at 156 vs oscar and was 169 the next day - a higher percentage than shmeling would have to cut to get to 175
he went from 170 to 180 against wright
he did it too
ODLH fight was a catchweight but Hopkins in interview has said he walked around 165-66 but no higher than 167 when he was a MW and not training for a fight.
It depends on the fighter, they don't all manipulate weight with water loss and some do it more extreme than others. Some fighters walk around a similar weight to what they fight at, Hopkins and FMM spring to mind. I also remember seeing an interview with Enzo Maccarinelli where he said he weighed pretty much the same in-between fights .
Hopkins fought oscar at 156 and was 169 the next day - a higher percentage than shmeling would have to cut to get to 175
he went from 170 to 180 against wright
he did it too
They all do it. Schmeling would pick lhw if it was more lucrative than cruiser or roid himself up to heavy and stay there, Holyfield style. No problem at all for him to cut weight and make lhw without same day weigh in.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑21 Jun 2023, 18:52
we have his weights, he added 10+ pounds multiple occasions. he was higher than 167 even when fighting at a low catchweight, hbo weighed him.
Yeah he will lose some weight of course, anyone training hard will lose weight unless specifically aiming to bulk up. Hopkins was a MW for around 15 years up to the age of 40 which shows he wasn’t struggling to make the weight. What I meant was he wasn’t cutting huge amounts like you were saying Schmeling would to make LHW. Hopkins was cutting 8-10lbs, Schmeling would have had to likely cut close to 30lbs.
lmao, there's no talking to you. 