BoxRec

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jul 2023, 11:08 Fighters are certinainly stronger and athletically fitter than yesteryear, but not nearly as 'hard,'

Bundana wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 02:46

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jul 2023, 11:08 Fighters are certinainly stronger and athletically fitter than yesteryear, but not nearly as 'hard,'

The "hard" part... how is it even possible to meassure that?

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 04:44

Bundana wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 02:46

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jul 2023, 11:08 Fighters are certinainly stronger and athletically fitter than yesteryear, but not nearly as 'hard,'

The "hard" part... how is it even possible to meassure that?

I'm guessing he meant life was harder in terms of money, opportunities, jobs etc

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Jun 2023, 03:01 This kinda interests me about the old time fighters that fought sometimes hundreds of fights (over many years in some cases) and why a lot of fighters in more recent decades are pretty much done after 50 fights or so. Was it because the old timers were so much stronger and fitter or was it they got stronger and fitter over the decades meaning their bodies aren't capable of having multiple fights? Fighters like Zivic, Saddler, SRR, Langford, Moore and Pep had tons of fights so was the vast majority of their opponents not so good that it made it easier to fight so often? People often argue the quality has dropped, the numbers of participants in pro boxing certainly has but are guys today actually stronger and therefore their bodies are broken quicker?

Of course like any debate there will be exceptions. We have Canelo today who is 32 years old and has had 63 fights but the general consensus is he isn't the fighter he used be. When you consider he probably has the best training team and facilities any fighter could wish for, the fact is it would be unlikely his body could cope with having numerous fights a year, even if if wanted to. So if Canelo with advantages he often has over opponents in terms of contracts, weights and the team around him is on the slide how were so many old timers able to be at the top so long? FMM another one who could prepare in the best ways possible, a fighter who never ballooned in weight, rarely took many heavy shots but was still done at 50 fights.

Can you imagine someone like Archie Moore today getting a HW title shot after almost 180 fights at around 40 years of age and then going on to have another 40 fights up to the age of 50? His body must’ve been smashed to pieces after so many fights yet still managed to box at a top level. So how did he do it?

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pound per pound wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 13:55Fighters are much stronger now.  Call it strength training methods, PED's,  lab testing of the blood to maximize performance  ... But I find them weaker than they used to be in the boxing heart department and a tad more injury prone.

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 04:44

Bundana wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 02:46

oogiebe wrote: ↑04 Jul 2023, 11:08 Fighters are certinainly stronger and athletically fitter than yesteryear, but not nearly as 'hard,'

The "hard" part... how is it even possible to meassure that?

I'm guessing he meant life was harder in terms of money, opportunities, jobs etc

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 17:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 17:10 You also have to look at their ages. Many of these guys had a 100 plus fights, but were not that old.
Only two of Marciano's opponents had 100 plus fights. Moore of course had a ton. Charles has 122. However, he was a great defensive fighter. He had serious health problems that may have had something to do with boxing. Walcott had 72. Louis has 71. Layne had 70. La Starza had 66. Marciano himself had 49.

Cleveland Williams had 97 fights. Zora Folley had 96. Chuvalo had 93. Eddie Machen 64. Patterson had 64.
So no, there wasn't a sudden movement of guys having less fights in the 1960s. No sure where you getting these bizarre conclusions.

Williams, Folley, Machen etc weren’t the best guys in the division in the same way as Louis, Walcott etc were seen as being and most had declined before they retired. Normally post WW2 most fighters are past their best after 40 or so fights. Marciano was fighting Walcott etc when they had numerous fights, Charles was on around 100, Moore around 180, Walcott around 70 etc. Then move onto the 1970s, the golden era for the HW division and the top guys were all pretty much retired, or past their best, after 40-50 fights.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑29 Jul 2023, 13:38

Controversial wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 17:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Jul 2023, 17:10 You also have to look at their ages. Many of these guys had a 100 plus fights, but were not that old.
Only two of Marciano's opponents had 100 plus fights. Moore of course had a ton. Charles has 122. However, he was a great defensive fighter. He had serious health problems that may have had something to do with boxing. Walcott had 72. Louis has 71. Layne had 70. La Starza had 66. Marciano himself had 49.

Cleveland Williams had 97 fights. Zora Folley had 96. Chuvalo had 93. Eddie Machen 64. Patterson had 64.
So no, there wasn't a sudden movement of guys having less fights in the 1960s. No sure where you getting these bizarre conclusions.

Williams, Folley, Machen etc weren’t the best guys in the division in the same way as Louis, Walcott etc were seen as being and most had declined before they retired. Normally post WW2 most fighters are past their best after 40 or so fights. Marciano was fighting Walcott etc when they had numerous fights, Charles was on around 100, Moore around 180, Walcott around 70 etc. Then move onto the 1970s, the golden era for the HW division and the top guys were all pretty much retired, or past their best, after 40-50 fights.

It could be because the salaries/paydays were much larger since the Muhammad Ali era?

Bundana wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 17:05
I wonder, what makes you think today's boxers have less heart than the old-timers?

Vic-braz wrote: ↑02 Aug 2023, 22:49

Bundana wrote: ↑28 Jul 2023, 17:05
I wonder, what makes you think today's boxers have less heart than the old-timers?

I put my cent on this... If Canelo quits in round 8 in his next fight, he can retire and live like a millionaire today.
Had Benny Leonard done that in his 40th fight, he would be broke.
It is too different, fighters were tougher back then because they HAD TO BE.

I think today fighters (and people really) are too much primadonas too, like everything is about appearence, feelings, social media... that does change the character of a fighter, a fighter shouldn´t care about what others think...
What happened with the silent strong type, like Gary Cooper ?

p4p1 wrote: ↑01 Aug 2023, 23:46 I think there is a different kind of strength that people can get from working really physical jobs on a farm, construction, wharfies etc from a young age that was present in people years ago when that was much more common. I don't think modern weights or training can replicate that, nor do I think it needs to. It's just a different kind of strength that can make people heavy handed, really hard to push away/move and feel really solid. It's not explosive but it is just always there no matter the level of fatigue.

davie wrote: ↑20 Sep 2023, 03:27

p4p1 wrote: ↑01 Aug 2023, 23:46 I think there is a different kind of strength that people can get from working really physical jobs on a farm, construction, wharfies etc from a young age that was present in people years ago when that was much more common. I don't think modern weights or training can replicate that, nor do I think it needs to. It's just a different kind of strength that can make people heavy handed, really hard to push away/move and feel really solid. It's not explosive but it is just always there no matter the level of fatigue.

I've worked with a few guys who grew up on farms and still tend to crofts and farms in their time off and I agree, these guys are naturally hard and strong individuals.
I've spent time in gyms and lifted weights on and off through my life and worked with guys who throw heavy weights about but the highland farming lads put them to shame for natural strength out on the job a lot of the time and never set foot in a gym.
Some of them are freakishly strong and all seem to have unnaturally large hands as well

Vic-braz wrote: ↑02 Aug 2023, 20:06 Humans are bigger nowdays, at least taller, due to food suply and all that, on the other hand it is weird that some studies show that a decline in testosterone happened in modern eras.