BoxRec

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑27 Aug 2023, 22:43 They are in their prime - exact same height, weight and reach

Usyk is better at boxing
Foreman hits harder

Id go with the better boxer

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Aug 2023, 22:18 (In the Cobb vs Wilder thread you were quoted as follows)
I actually think Cobb could win this. It could play out like the Cobb-Shavers fight. Cobb took everything Shavers could throw, and the accumulation of his own punches finally stopped Shavers. Wilder doesn't punch as hard as Shavers nor throw nearly as many punches. Cobb could probably survive.
And if this is for 15 rounds, Cobb would have an even better chance to stop Wilder or win a decision.


There are plenty of examples including many involving non greats. Pinklon Thomas was badly faded vs Tyson and Bowe but neither could blow him out in one round. Jimmy Young fought long past his best but never blown out in a round. You can find counter examples but those seem to involve guys who were far more past it than Norton. Shavers was waaaaaaaay farther past his best against Brad Simmons than Norton was vs Cooney and was much older at 43.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑01 Sep 2023, 00:11 prime george beats usyk. prime george just put it on so hot and although not the fastest even then, he could still chase guys down pretty well. he'd overwhelm usyk eventually.

usyk beats old slow george by wide ud, a fighter made for usyk to look good against. the power isnt even going to be a factor, george wouldnt land enough. usyk would just pepper him and move, repeat over and over as george trundles forward in slow motion.


disclaimer: *james toney, with 0 title defenses, 0 unifications, and 1 win over a ranked opponent, is more accomplished at cruiser than usyk! all those great wins over craptastic 10 round fighters!!

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑31 Aug 2023, 22:41

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑27 Aug 2023, 22:18 (In the Cobb vs Wilder thread you were quoted as follows)
I actually think Cobb could win this. It could play out like the Cobb-Shavers fight. Cobb took everything Shavers could throw, and the accumulation of his own punches finally stopped Shavers. Wilder doesn't punch as hard as Shavers nor throw nearly as many punches. Cobb could probably survive.
And if this is for 15 rounds, Cobb would have an even better chance to stop Wilder or win a decision.


There are plenty of examples including many involving non greats. Pinklon Thomas was badly faded vs Tyson and Bowe but neither could blow him out in one round. Jimmy Young fought long past his best but never blown out in a round. You can find counter examples but those seem to involve guys who were far more past it than Norton. Shavers was waaaaaaaay farther past his best against Brad Simmons than Norton was vs Cooney and was much older at 43.

I thought Cobb could win. Wouldn't have surprised me, mostly due to Wilder limitations. Not sure what this has to do with Usyk-Foreman anyway.
Pinklon Thomas was not badly faded when he fought Tyson. He was just 29 and very close to his prime. In no way comparable to Norton. How about Thomas when he fought Tommy Morrison? Guess what, Thomas got blown out in the first round. He was 33. Norton was 37 against Cooney.

Not sure why you think it's a big deal that Norton got ko'd by Cooney when he was really was way past it. So Jimmy young never got blown out when he was way past it, so what?
Why are you so obsessed with how badly someone lost when they were way past it?
It's what happened when they were close to their prime that counts.

And again, this had nothing to with Usyk and Foreman. Foreman was a proven great fighter at hw. In real life, usually the proven guy wins. This is the part where you bring up an exception or go off on another tangent about two other fighters who have nothing to do with Foreman and Usyk.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Sep 2023, 22:03 Calling Foreman's resume isn't deep is beyond absurd. Really calls into question your lack of knowledge.
Outside of Ali and Louis, his resume is as deep as anyone.
You can't just throw out beating Joe Frazier. (Though I know you like to throw out a fighter's biggest win when it suits your case.
Ken Norton was much better than anyone Usyk has beat at heavyweight.
Ron Lyle for that matter as well.
No Frazier, Norton, and Lyle were perfect; no one is. However, they were quality wins beyond question. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.
In comparison, Usyk has a paper-thin resume at hw.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Sep 2023, 22:49 Good point. Toney's lack of the all-important WBS title defenses is crucial when talking about Foreman-Usyk.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Sep 2023, 22:03 Calling Foreman's resume isn't deep is beyond absurd. Really calls into question your lack of knowledge.
Outside of Ali and Louis, his resume is as deep as anyone.
You can't just throw out beating Joe Frazier. (Though I know you like to throw out a fighter's biggest win when it suits your case.
Ken Norton was much better than anyone Usyk has beat at heavyweight.
Ron Lyle for that matter as well.
No Frazier, Norton, and Lyle were perfect; no one is. However, they were quality wins beyond question. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.
In comparison, Usyk has a paper-thin resume at hw.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Sep 2023, 01:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Sep 2023, 22:03 Calling Foreman's resume isn't deep is beyond absurd. Really calls into question your lack of knowledge.
Outside of Ali and Louis, his resume is as deep as anyone.
You can't just throw out beating Joe Frazier. (Though I know you like to throw out a fighter's biggest win when it suits your case.
Ken Norton was much better than anyone Usyk has beat at heavyweight.
Ron Lyle for that matter as well.
No Frazier, Norton, and Lyle were perfect; no one is. However, they were quality wins beyond question. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.
In comparison, Usyk has a paper-thin resume at hw.

Foreman's win over clear top 10 guys are limited to
Chuvalo, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Moorer

That's absolutely not a very deep resume for a guy regarded by some as an atg heavyweight. Certainly nothing like Lewis or Holmes. Lewis has Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, McCall, Akinwande, Golota, Holyfield, Tua, Rahman, Vitali Klitschko.
Everybody Usyk beat at cruiserweight was over 175 so they absolutely count in this matchup. We are talking about an era in which top heavyweights averaged around 208 pounds.

Can you back up this idea that Lyle is more skilled than Usyk cruiserweight opponents like Breidis, Hunter, etc. Breidis seems very skilled, Hunter as well.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Sep 2023, 15:31

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑04 Sep 2023, 01:41

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Sep 2023, 22:03 Calling Foreman's resume isn't deep is beyond absurd. Really calls into question your lack of knowledge.
Outside of Ali and Louis, his resume is as deep as anyone.
You can't just throw out beating Joe Frazier. (Though I know you like to throw out a fighter's biggest win when it suits your case.
Ken Norton was much better than anyone Usyk has beat at heavyweight.
Ron Lyle for that matter as well.
No Frazier, Norton, and Lyle were perfect; no one is. However, they were quality wins beyond question. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.
In comparison, Usyk has a paper-thin resume at hw.

Foreman's win over clear top 10 guys are limited to
Chuvalo, Frazier, Norton, Lyle, Moorer

That's absolutely not a very deep resume for a guy regarded by some as an atg heavyweight. Certainly nothing like Lewis or Holmes. Lewis has Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, McCall, Akinwande, Golota, Holyfield, Tua, Rahman, Vitali Klitschko.
Everybody Usyk beat at cruiserweight was over 175 so they absolutely count in this matchup. We are talking about an era in which top heavyweights averaged around 208 pounds.

Can you back up this idea that Lyle is more skilled than Usyk cruiserweight opponents like Breidis, Hunter, etc. Breidis seems very skilled, Hunter as well.

First you always seem to forget a couple of key factors in Top 10 lists. One is that the top 10 in one era is not the same as the Top 10 in another. Som eras are much stronger than others. Foreman fought in the best heavyweight era of all time.

i.e, you can't count a win over Akinwande as the same as beating Joe Frazier. But you are here.
You also can't count a win over the #1 guy as the same as the #10 guy.

OK, let's take a look at Usyks wins over guys that are 175 or above. So pretend that the cruiserweight division didn't exist. Everyone over 175 is competing against ech other. If you had to make your Top 10 list at the time that Usyk fought them, would you really rate Breidis or Hunter in the Top 10? Of course not. So, stop bringing them up.

Hunter? Seriously? The guy wasn't even a Top 10 Cruiserweight.

Usyk's resume is a joke compared to Foreman's.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 09:28 You completely misunderstood what I said. I did not say that they were not in the Top 10 of Usyks opponents.

I was saying that you if you want to count cruiserweights as hws when ranking Usyk as a hw, you have to treat them as heavyweights. So put the cruiserweights that he fought in along with the heavyweights. Would any of them be a a Top 10 heavwyweight,? Remember, this isn't pound for pound. This is just asa heavyweight.
Pretend that the cruiserweight never existed. Gassiev, Bredies and those other legendary cruiserweights would not have been in the Top 10 of the heavyweight rankings.

By far, the best heavyweight opponent that Usyk is Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua is nowhere near the level of some of the guys that Foreman fought.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 09:28 Pretend that the cruiserweight never existed. Gassiev, Bredies and those other legendary cruiserweights

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 11:06

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 09:28 You completely misunderstood what I said. I did not say that they were not in the Top 10 of Usyks opponents.

I was saying that you if you want to count cruiserweights as hws when ranking Usyk as a hw, you have to treat them as heavyweights. So put the cruiserweights that he fought in along with the heavyweights. Would any of them be a a Top 10 heavwyweight,? Remember, this isn't pound for pound. This is just asa heavyweight.
Pretend that the cruiserweight never existed. Gassiev, Bredies and those other legendary cruiserweights would not have been in the Top 10 of the heavyweight rankings.

By far, the best heavyweight opponent that Usyk is Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua is nowhere near the level of some of the guys that Foreman fought.

Gassiev and hunter would certainly be (hunter was). Bellew probably was too after the haye wins. Briedis too after drilling charr

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 09:28 You completely misunderstood what I said. I did not say that they were not in the Top 10 of Usyks opponents.

I was saying that you if you want to count cruiserweights as hws when ranking Usyk as a hw, you have to treat them as heavyweights. So put the cruiserweights that he fought in along with the heavyweights. Would any of them be a a Top 10 heavwyweight,? Remember, this isn't pound for pound. This is just asa heavyweight.
Pretend that the cruiserweight never existed. Gassiev, Bredies and those other legendary cruiserweights would not have been in the Top 10 of the heavyweight rankings.

By far, the best heavyweight opponent that Usyk is Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua is nowhere near the level of some of the guys that Foreman fought.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 13:55

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 11:06

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 09:28 You completely misunderstood what I said. I did not say that they were not in the Top 10 of Usyks opponents.

I was saying that you if you want to count cruiserweights as hws when ranking Usyk as a hw, you have to treat them as heavyweights. So put the cruiserweights that he fought in along with the heavyweights. Would any of them be a a Top 10 heavwyweight,? Remember, this isn't pound for pound. This is just asa heavyweight.
Pretend that the cruiserweight never existed. Gassiev, Bredies and those other legendary cruiserweights would not have been in the Top 10 of the heavyweight rankings.

By far, the best heavyweight opponent that Usyk is Anthony Joshua. Anthony Joshua is nowhere near the level of some of the guys that Foreman fought.

Gassiev and hunter would certainly be (hunter was). Bellew probably was too after the haye wins. Briedis too after drilling charr

Not one of these guys (Gassiev, Hunter, Bellew or Briedis) have ever been ranked in the Top 10 heavyweight in Ring Magazine's Annual Rankings. Hunter has never even made it as a Cruiserweight. And this has been in a very weak heavyweight era.

None of these guys are remotely close to Joe, Frazier, Ken Norton or Ron Lyle. Or even Chuvalo for that matter.
Usyk's resume as a hw is a joke compared to Foreman's.
Foreman's is easily Top 10. No reason for Usyk to be Top 50.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 14:06 hunter has been ring magazine ranked, at least as high as #7. also ranked as high as #6 by the transnational boxing ranking board

but i get it, he was no wes martin

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑07 Sep 2023, 10:23

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 13:55

Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑06 Sep 2023, 11:06
Gassiev and hunter would certainly be (hunter was). Bellew probably was too after the haye wins. Briedis too after drilling charr

Not one of these guys (Gassiev, Hunter, Bellew or Briedis) have ever been ranked in the Top 10 heavyweight in Ring Magazine's Annual Rankings. Hunter has never even made it as a Cruiserweight. And this has been in a very weak heavyweight era.

None of these guys are remotely close to Joe, Frazier, Ken Norton or Ron Lyle. Or even Chuvalo for that matter.
Usyk's resume as a hw is a joke compared to Foreman's.
Foreman's is easily Top 10. No reason for Usyk to be Top 50.

Got it.
Ring mag is what matters, not official rankings.

Ron lyle? Chuvalo? Hahaha

Of course foreman has a better resume nobody argued that