BoxRec

Posted: **28 Feb 2024, 18:37**

mike was very very good. ya sure lots of people overrate him, but some ppl underrate him too, eg the op

Posted: **28 Feb 2024, 18:41**

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:14
jwfg wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:59
Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:29

If you have a belt and are stripped off it you are no longer a holder of that belt. Do you not consider Ernie Terrell to be a world champ then?
He was a belt holder. Nothing more.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Ali gave up all claim to the heavyweight championship when the WBA stripped him in 1965 for refusing to fight his mandatory?
I don’t know what you mean by “all claim”. He was WBC champ and was stripped of the WBA belt. So he was still a champ.

You said that Spinks gave up all claim when he dropped the IBF belt, so do you think the same about Ali?

Posted: **28 Feb 2024, 18:45**

jwfg wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:41
Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:14
jwfg wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 17:59

He was a belt holder. Nothing more.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think Ali gave up all claim to the heavyweight championship when the WBA stripped him in 1965 for refusing to fight his mandatory?
I don’t know what you mean by “all claim”. He was WBC champ and was stripped of the WBA belt. So he was still a champ.
You said that Spinks gave up all claim when he dropped the IBF belt, so do you think the same about Ali?

Spinks held one belt, the IBF. He was stripped of it. Ali was stripped of the WBA belt, he was still WBC champ. So no I don't think the same.

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 07:18**

Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:45
jwfg wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:41
Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:14

I don’t know what you mean by “all claim”. He was WBC champ and was stripped of the WBA belt. So he was still a champ.
You said that Spinks gave up all claim when he dropped the IBF belt, so do you think the same about Ali?
Spinks held one belt, the IBF. He was stripped of it. Ali was stripped of the WBA belt, he was still WBC champ. So no I don't think the same.

Ali and Terrell both had one belt each, so are you saying that Terrell had as much claim to the title of Heavyweight Championship of the World as Ali did?

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 07:51**

jwfg wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 07:18
Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:45
jwfg wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:41

You said that Spinks gave up all claim when he dropped the IBF belt, so do you think the same about Ali?
Spinks held one belt, the IBF. He was stripped of it. Ali was stripped of the WBA belt, he was still WBC champ. So no I don't think the same.
Ali and Terrell both had one belt each, so are you saying that Terrell had as much claim to the title of Heavyweight Championship of the World as Ali did?

I don’t look at it like that. If Ngannou got the nod over Fury would you consider him more worthy than Usyk?

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 08:48**

Controversial wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 07:51
jwfg wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 07:18
Controversial wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 18:45

Spinks held one belt, the IBF. He was stripped of it. Ali was stripped of the WBA belt, he was still WBC champ. So no I don't think the same.
Ali and Terrell both had one belt each, so are you saying that Terrell had as much claim to the title of Heavyweight Championship of the World as Ali did?
I don’t look at it like that. If Ngannou got the nod over Fury would you consider him more worthy than Usyk?

No. I don't class Fury as the man.

So you don't think Ali and Terrell had an equal claim. Why? I thought being stripped of a belt was a big deal for you.

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 08:59**

jwfg wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 08:48
Controversial wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 07:51
jwfg wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 07:18

Ali and Terrell both had one belt each, so are you saying that Terrell had as much claim to the title of Heavyweight Championship of the World as Ali did?
I don’t look at it like that. If Ngannou got the nod over Fury would you consider him more worthy than Usyk?
No. I don't class Fury as the man.

So you don't think Ali and Terrell had an equal claim. Why? I thought being stripped of a belt was a big deal for you.

Who do you claim is the man then? Mate it’s all nonsense, you believe what you want, it means nothing to me. I never said they didn’t have an equal claim, they both had belts but if you are stripped then you are stripped. Spinks was stripped for ducking his mandatory and that’s just how it is.

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 15:17**

Gentlemen, Tyson became the youngest fighter in the history of boxing, this is a fact, not marketing. He defeated 5 current world champions, and Larry Holmes was the only one in his 30-year career to outclass him and knock him out, something no one before or after him managed to do. He destroyed the current linear champion, the undefeated Michael Spinks, in 90 seconds and outclassed two Olympic champions. Today he is very underestimated because what is mainly remembered is the end of his career when he was a drug-addicted, psychiatrically treated freak. But in the 1980s he was perhaps the best HW in history. An ordinary fan sees no differences in timing, mental, cardio or head movement between the former Tyson and the one we saw later. In my opinion, the author - forgive me - writes nonsense that is popular because Tyson is the most hated and controversial fighter in history. But let's be objective....

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 16:11**

yep, mike wasnt the greatest but he was still a special fighter

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 16:22**

he's a great, his later demise does not detract from that. We'll likely never see a 20 year win the HW title again.

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 16:41**

Tyson was an outstanding fighter of that there is no doubt. He had natural power and speed. His place in history kind of depends on how much he lost in prison or were the guys better in the 90s than the 80s?

I grew up watching him. First hearing his name in the ring magazine fight results section, then seeing him on tape etc and in to the title. As such he’s one of my favourite fighters but the modern day lionising of him often puts him on a level I don’t think objectively he was at.

My view is that Holyfield was better. Also Tyson was great when things were going well but not so good when they weren’t. Other heavys had comparable career issues than Tyson. Louis lost time to the war, Ali too. It’s arguable that Tyson’s spell in jail actually elongated his career. Outside he was on a spiral of self destruction.

For me he would have given trouble to any heavy in history but career wise he’s around 8-10 heavy all time. I think Lewis, holy were better and would have beaten him pretty much anytime. Possibly Bowe too.

Posted: **29 Feb 2024, 18:57**

cfang wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:41 Tyson was an outstanding fighter of that there is no doubt. He had natural power and speed. His place in history kind of depends on how much he lost in prison or were the guys better in the 90s than the 80s?

I grew up watching him. First hearing his name in the ring magazine fight results section, then seeing him on tape etc and in to the title. As such he’s one of my favourite fighters but the modern day lionising of him often puts him on a level I don’t think objectively he was at.

My view is that Holyfield was better. Also Tyson was great when things were going well but not so good when they weren’t. Other heavys had comparable career issues than Tyson. Louis lost time to the war, Ali too. It’s arguable that Tyson’s spell in jail actually elongated his career. Outside he was on a spiral of self destruction.

For me he would have given trouble to any heavy in history but career wise he’s around 8-10 heavy all time. I think Lewis, holy were better and would have beaten him pretty much anytime. Possibly Bowe too.

I agree with this apart from the Bowe part. Really good post this though.

Posted: **01 Mar 2024, 03:21**

In the 1980s, Tyson had a record of 37-0, including 10-0 in title fights. In the 1990s he was 9-3 and 2-3 in title fights. In the 00's he was 4-3 and lost one title fight. And yet, when people evaluate him, the decline of his career is still taken into account. I can believe that he wouldn't be the favorite against Liston, against Foreman, against Ike, against Vitali, maybe against Holyfield, but I would give him much better chances. In my opinion, Lewis would not be a problem for prime Tyson. In general, Lennox is a very overrated player. Bowe liked distance fights Mike, he was perfect for Tyson but they would have had an epic fight because they had great dynamics and iron jaws.

Posted: **01 Mar 2024, 15:30**

SeanBrennan wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 18:57
cfang wrote: ↑29 Feb 2024, 16:41 Tyson was an outstanding fighter of that there is no doubt. He had natural power and speed. His place in history kind of depends on how much he lost in prison or were the guys better in the 90s than the 80s?

I grew up watching him. First hearing his name in the ring magazine fight results section, then seeing him on tape etc and in to the title. As such he’s one of my favourite fighters but the modern day lionising of him often puts him on a level I don’t think objectively he was at.

My view is that Holyfield was better. Also Tyson was great when things were going well but not so good when they weren’t. Other heavys had comparable career issues than Tyson. Louis lost time to the war, Ali too. It’s arguable that Tyson’s spell in jail actually elongated his career. Outside he was on a spiral of self destruction.

For me he would have given trouble to any heavy in history but career wise he’s around 8-10 heavy all time. I think Lewis, holy were better and would have beaten him pretty much anytime. Possibly Bowe too.
I agree with this apart from the Bowe part. Really good post this though.

Thanks

Posted: **01 Mar 2024, 15:32**

no thank you for articulating it, will always read a thoughtful post.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 05:11**

As I said, please name one quality HOF worthy win of Tyson that is equally or even better than the best wins of Holy, Bowe, Lewis or even Ike??

Tyson had better life and training conditions in the jail than many other top fighters had in the freedom.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 09:34**

apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 05:11 As I said, please name one quality HOF worthy win of Tyson that is equally or even better than the best wins of Holy, Bowe, Lewis or even Ike??

Tyson had better life and training conditions in the jail than many other top fighters had in the freedom.

You have to choose between Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, or Tubbs, Berbick, Biggs, Thomas, Williams

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 12:06**

gilgamesh wrote: ↑28 Feb 2024, 02:17
Tony1244 wrote: ↑27 Feb 2024, 20:18
gilgamesh wrote: ↑26 Feb 2024, 13:59 I mean the easiest way to market a fighter is if he's knocking people out in exciting fashion. Mike Tyson did that.

He's certainly an example of having a great manager that steered his career just right in the early going to make him look invincible.

I've always found it amusing that Mike is barely a Top 10 all time Heavyweight, and maybe not even quite in the Top 10 at all at Heavy, but he is without question one of the Top 3 or 4 biggest celebrities the sport has ever produced.

He's not as good as Holyfield or Lennox Lewis who both beat him, yet I'd bet you that for every person that knows who Holyfield and Lennox are. There's 100 more that know who Mike Tyson is.

Life's funny that way sometimes.
Agree with everything other than it's possible he could have bested Lewis and Holyfield in his early going IF he had steered clear of all the womanizing, drugs, and alcohol. But IF my aunt had balls......
I can see Mike Tyson beating Lennox Lewis if he had caught him early on his Pro career before giving him the chance to get much experience.

I don't think there was ever a time in their careers that Mike Tyson could've beaten Holyfield, and I don't think he'd beat him if they fought tomorrow either.

That may be correct on Holyfield. Holy took a good shot and had great stamina and may have had the style to beat Tyson.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 12:15**

Jakub079 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 09:34
apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 05:11 As I said, please name one quality HOF worthy win of Tyson that is equally or even better than the best wins of Holy, Bowe, Lewis or even Ike??

Tyson had better life and training conditions in the jail than many other top fighters had in the freedom.
You have to choose between Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, or Tubbs, Berbick, Biggs, Thomas, Williams

Who would you choose between these guys to be on a par with Lennxox, Holy, Bowe or Ike best wins ?

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 12:22**

apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 05:11 As I said, please name one quality HOF worthy win of Tyson that is equally or even better than the best wins of Holy, Bowe, Lewis or even Ike??

Tyson had better life and training conditions in the jail than many other top fighters had in the freedom.

Did he? I never heard the prison was staffed with trainers and equipment like Ron Lyle's or James Scotts' prison. Sure, he could run and do pushups but that's no sub for sparring, trainers, and bags.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 14:16**

apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 12:15
Jakub079 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 09:34
apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 05:11 As I said, please name one quality HOF worthy win of Tyson that is equally or even better than the best wins of Holy, Bowe, Lewis or even Ike??

Tyson had better life and training conditions in the jail than many other top fighters had in the freedom.
You have to choose between Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, or Tubbs, Berbick, Biggs, Thomas, Williams
Who would you choose between these guys to be on a par with Lennxox, Holy, Bowe or Ike best wins ?

I think Holmes. When he was 42 years old, he quite easily beat Mercer who, at the age of 35, gave a very equal fight to prime Lennox Lewis. Besides, style is very important. Outside of Tony Tucker, Tyson dominated these guys, he dominated. No one has knocked down Larry Holmes before or since, Mike did it three times. Who did Lewis win against? in what style? what is his greatest victory? I can actually ask the same about Holyfield... I agree with Ike, he theoretically could have stopped the best Tyson, although I don't think so. The problem with Ike is that he finished it too quickly and was not fully tested. Lewis and Holy were there and in my opinion, they wouldn't have stopped the best Tyson

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 14:29**

Jakub079 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 14:16
apollo creed wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 12:15
Jakub079 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 09:34

You have to choose between Holmes, Spinks, Tucker, or Tubbs, Berbick, Biggs, Thomas, Williams
Who would you choose between these guys to be on a par with Lennxox, Holy, Bowe or Ike best wins ?
I agree with Ike, he theoretically could have stopped the best Tyson, although I don't think so. The problem with Ike is that he finished it too quickly and was not fully tested.

IMO he was juicing. He threw almost a 1000 punches in 12 rounds against Tua, output a featherweight would be proud of and a record in HW boxing. A 16.5 stone HW built like a bodybuilder and throwing that amount of punches doesn't flash normal to me. That was listed in the top 10 list of most punches ever thrown in a fight, the other 9 fights were at welterweight or below.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 14:43**

and who hasn't done that? The number of blows does not mean their quality. I mean style. Ike was difficult to break, technically good, very strong, able to get into a punch, he had no weaknesses. But I think Tyson was more brilliant. Either way, Ike and Tyson quickly quit boxing, for different reasons.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 15:08**

I think one of the problems with Tyson is we never actually got to see his peak. He was unstoppable up to the Spinks fight. But after that he lost Rooney, Lott and the team who helped him get to that level. Then, he spent 3 of his prime years in jail. He was never the same fighter again and we don’t know how good he might have become if he had stayed out of trouble and kept those people around him.

His achievements before the age of 22 are still unequalled though and more than worthy of him being considered an ATG.

Posted: **02 Mar 2024, 15:24**

Monzon83 wrote: ↑02 Mar 2024, 15:08 I think one of the problems with Tyson is we never actually got to see his peak. He was unstoppable up to the Spinks fight. But after that he lost Rooney, Lott and the team who helped him get to that level. Then, he spent 3 of his prime years in jail. He was never the same fighter again and we don’t know how good he might have become if he had stayed out of trouble and kept those people around him.

His achievements before the age of 22 are still unequalled though and more than worthy of him being considered an ATG.

Of course. But it wasn't the loss of Rooney that was the problem because Rooney was not a great coach. The problem was Tyson's approach to the sport. Do you know why he kicked Kevin out of the gym? Tyson, just like Leon Spinks after the first fight with Ali or Buster after the fight with him, simply finished boxing and focused on something else

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Tyson

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype

Re: Mike Tyson - a big example of great marketing and hype