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Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 10:51
by Controversial
Bigdogsnose wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 10:14
Question is, if he hit the deck, not the ropes woukd he have beat the count. Hard one, he looked out of it but he has previous.
Yes good point, I'm not sure he would've beaten the count
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 10:52
by ironbeard
No.
Fury would not have survived Wilder in either fight if he did not have amazing will to win and recuperative abilities. The fight that should have been stopped is v Wallin. Again, in that fight Fury demonstrated his nearly unmatched will to not lose.
I have been VERY critical of Fury for his antics and lack of discipline over the years, but those who claim he is second rate and would have been nothing in other eras are just plain wrong. Fury may not be an ATG but he would have competed at the highest level in any era.
The man is a freak.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 10:52
by ALI
Bigdogsnose wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 10:14
Question is, if he hit the deck, not the ropes woukd he have beat the count. Hard one, he looked out of it but he has previous.
Good question. I'd say no, i don't think he'd have beaten the count this time.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 10:54
by vostok
"A TKO does not happen due to a singular devastating blow but rather from a series of unanswered punches or a fighter being in no position to defend themselves"
..Unanswered 15-20 punches for what ~20 seconds and a visibly concussed Fury unable to defend himself. Almost a definite TKO in my book. Fornica was arguably in better condition at the point of TKO.
If ropes was the thing, the ref should've intervened and called a knockdown earlier. Inconsistent at best.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 12:00
by Ricky
ALI wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 10:52
Bigdogsnose wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 10:14
Question is, if he hit the deck, not the ropes woukd he have beat the count. Hard one, he looked out of it but he has previous.
Good question. I'd say no, i don't think he'd have beaten the count this time.
Well he didn't really beat the count even without having to get up. The ref asked him to walk forward he was obviously fvcked.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 12:06
by Delta Jay
That was a serious question, is the ref supposed to take previous into account when assessing a fighters ability to continue?
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 12:09
by Boxerbeetle
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 12:06
That was a serious question, is the ref supposed to take previous into account when assessing a fighters ability to continue?
Probably not, but they nearly always do.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:14
by hhaehre
DrDuke wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 09:36
Why? Fury was shaken, but not out. Ropes saved him from falling, which is a legit KD, but he recovered fast.
Are you saying you would have allowed Fury to continue after the count if this had happened mid round?
Imo he was in no condition to continue, but the ref knew the round was almost over and ran out the clock with a slow count and a looong assesment of Fury.
He would of course have been raked over the coals had he stopped it also, shades of Chavez-Taylor. A no-win situation for the ref, but he probably knew what was expected of him in that situation.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:38
by Delta Jay
Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 12:09
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 12:06
That was a serious question, is the ref supposed to take previous into account when assessing a fighters ability to continue?
Probably not, but they nearly always do.
I guess it’s impossible to forget everything you know about a fighter in the heat of the moment.
I’ve just rewatched it. Mark Nelson looked absolutely GUTTED when he had to give Fury the count. Any other fighter, any other ref.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:40
by Delta Jay
hhaehre wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:14
DrDuke wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 09:36
Why? Fury was shaken, but not out. Ropes saved him from falling, which is a legit KD, but he recovered fast.
Are you saying you would have allowed Fury to continue after the count if this had happened mid round?
Imo he was in no condition to continue, but the ref knew the round was almost over and ran out the clock with a slow count and a looong assesment of Fury.
He would of course have been raked over the coals had he stopped it also, shades of Chavez-Taylor. A no-win situation for the ref, but he probably knew what was expected of him in that situation.
Do you think that’s what’s going through the ref’s mind in them moments? It must be so hard, even werse for footy refs deffo. It’s easy to say something about brown envelopes but I really think Nelson dropped a stinker there
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:42
by polecateddy
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:46
by Delta Jay
polecateddy wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:42
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
Just rewatched that round a few times, yeah that’s 100% a count and maybe an outright stop
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 13:59
by Controversial
polecateddy wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:42
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
When you look at Groves being stopped by Froch in
their first fight that shows the difference between them.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 14:36
by Delta Jay
Controversial wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:59
polecateddy wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:42
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
When you look at Groves being stopped by Froch in
their first fight that shows the difference between them.
Was listening to Groves on the 5Live pod before, it must have been so hard not to mention that fight while he was there.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 14:48
by ironbeard
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:46
polecateddy wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:42
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
Just rewatched that round a few times, yeah that’s 100% a count and maybe an outright stop
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:25
by Delta Jay
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 14:48
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:46
polecateddy wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:42
I don't think I've seen many fighters as 'gone' as Fury was in that 9th round be allowed to continue. I bet a lot of corners would have stopped it too.
Just rewatched that round a few times, yeah that’s 100% a count and maybe an outright stop
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Yes but this is my question, should a ref be thinking about previous?
We all know fury is a freak of nature and that’s why we love him. If that was Sokolowski in there it would’ve ended 2 minutes earlier.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:27
by Delta Jay
What if a ref has never seen either fighter before? What if he thinks one lad is chinny but he’s clearly a banger? Abilities of recuperation Vs solid chin?
Nah mate, having none of it. You judge based on the man in front of you in that exact moment. And if that’s the case, you treat them all the same
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:30
by deadpan
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 12:06
That was a serious question, is the ref supposed to take previous into account when assessing a fighters ability to continue?
Ask George Groves.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:33
by Delta Jay
deadpan wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:30
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 12:06
That was a serious question, is the ref supposed to take previous into account when assessing a fighters ability to continue?
Ask George Groves.
Just said about GG on another thread. He must be fuming watching that
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:39
by ironbeard
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:25
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 14:48
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 13:46
Just rewatched that round a few times, yeah that’s 100% a count and maybe an outright stop
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Yes but this is my question, should a ref be thinking about previous?
We all know fury is a freak of nature and that’s why we love him. If that was Sokolowski in there it would’ve ended 2 minutes earlier.
If it was ANYONE else in there the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else in there v Wallin the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else who took that shot from Wilder the fight would have been over.
That is why Fury is indeed a great fighter, a fabulous competitor, a true modern gladiator. Maybe he is not the GOAT but he could compete in any era v any boxer in history.
THAT is what makes what Usyk did last night historically special. It was one of the greatest HW performances of all time by The World’s Champion Boxer. AND, it was barely enough.
Shades of Ali v Frazier I.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:43
by Delta Jay
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:39
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:25
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 14:48
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Yes but this is my question, should a ref be thinking about previous?
We all know fury is a freak of nature and that’s why we love him. If that was Sokolowski in there it would’ve ended 2 minutes earlier.
If it was ANYONE else in there the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else in there v Wallin the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else who took that shot from Wilder the fight would have been over.
That is why Fury is indeed a great fighter, a fabulous competitor, a true modern gladiator. Maybe he is not the GOAT but he could compete in any era v any boxer in history.
THAT is what makes what Usyk did last night historically special. It was one of the greatest HW performances of all time by The World’s Champion Boxer. AND, it was barely enough.
Shades of Ali v Frazier I.
Calm down Gypsy John
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:44
by Boxerbeetle
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:27
What if a ref has never seen either fighter before? What if he thinks one lad is chinny but he’s clearly a banger? Abilities of recuperation Vs solid chin?
Nah mate, having none of it. You judge based on the man in front of you in that exact moment. And if that’s the case, you treat them all the same
But we all know referees don't treat them all the same. Refs will behave differently depending on lots of factors, such as how fighters have performed/recovered before (if known), how the fight is currently going, how much time is left in the round, how big an event the fight is, etc etc. All those things are relevant imo, and even if they weren't, it's almost impossible for a regular human to completely ignore them in the heat of the moment, even if a lot of it is subconscious.
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:44
by Controversial
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:39
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:25
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 14:48
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Yes but this is my question, should a ref be thinking about previous?
We all know fury is a freak of nature and that’s why we love him. If that was Sokolowski in there it would’ve ended 2 minutes earlier.
If it was ANYONE else in there the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else in there v Wallin the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else who took that shot from Wilder the fight would have been over.
Doesn’t this just mean he is given special treatment?
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:45
by polecateddy
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:39
Delta Jay wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 15:25
ironbeard wrote: ↑19 May 2024, 14:48
I agree, but we are literally talking about a freak of nature here. Fury has an amazing sense of survival in the ring. Think about that KD v Wilder. Not sure another man alive could have gotten up from that and taken it to his opponent for the rest of that round.
He was tumbling around the ring seemingly next to unconsciousness, but it was not just the ropes keeping him up. It was Fury’s nearly unmatched will not to lose.
Yes but this is my question, should a ref be thinking about previous?
We all know fury is a freak of nature and that’s why we love him. If that was Sokolowski in there it would’ve ended 2 minutes earlier.
If it was ANYONE else in there the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else in there v Wallin the fight would have been stopped. If it was ANYONE else who took that shot from Wilder the fight would have been over.
That is why Fury is indeed a great fighter, a fabulous competitor, a true modern gladiator. Maybe he is not the GOAT but he could compete in any era v any boxer in history.
THAT is what makes what Usyk did last night historically special. It was one of the greatest HW performances of all time by The World’s Champion Boxer. AND, it was barely enough.
Shades of Ali v Frazier I.
Usyk isn’t the biggest puncher at heavyweight, so my take is that better heavyweights of the past could have have got Fury out of there early. Mike Tyson KO1 for example does not seem a bad bet!
Re: Should the ref have stopped Fury in the 9th?
Posted: 19 May 2024, 15:46
by Delta Jay
Yeah, exactly to both of you. That is certain fighters getting special treatment. Surely that’s against the whole idea of sports?