BoxRec

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:38

Fray Bentos wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 06:58

Funnily enough was going to start a thread about Holyfield v Usyk, I too think Holyfield would have been too much, Holyfield was much more aggressive than Usyk at heavyweight. His fights with Bowe were insane, and Bowe at that point, was at the height of his powers, and for me, was for a brief period, almost like the ultimate heavyweight. Holyfield stood toe to toe in the 1st fight, and came of 2nd best, in fight 2, he fought a bit smarter and came in and out throwing heavy combinations and prevailed.

I suppose though, you could argue the Holyfield who lost to Moorer, could have lost to Usyk, but Holy had a torn rotator cuff going into that fight supposedly.

I think the style matchup favours holyfield, who had quick feet and hands, I don't see him blowing out Usyk, but I think he would win most of the exchanges, and force Usyk into standing and trading at times, which would have suited him.

For a come forward fighter - Holyfields defence was sublime and he was really hard to catch cleanly, even Lewis had problems with him regards that - and as Usyk doesn't like it to the body and lets you know that - Holyfield would have had his number - it would have been a great fight - one of the few I would have paid 25 quid for PPV.

I think Usyk would probably have gone the distance, he's good enough tactically, but he'd have been forced to survive rather than play offence down the stretch.

No chance he could have hurt holyfield the way he did Fury, Holyfield ate punches from a Prime Lewis and Bowe without budging.

I think it's often the way the punches are delivered,the speed and type of punch etc,afterall Tyson had taken Wilders very best but Usyk's punches had a much more dramatic effect.There are plenty of examples of fighters taking some big shots then falling over from seemingly lesser ones.Holyfield was in dire trouble with Bert Cooper

Holyfield was a cruiserweight whose style (or adapted style) suited the heavyweight ranks.

I still see Usyk as a cruiserweight who still fighting the same way (in the main) and it’s his greatness more so than his style that makes him good at heavyweight…plus the state of the heavyweight division.

However, in Lewis he has a quick, powerful, athletic fighter.

I wouldn’t write off Usyk, but I would favour Lewis… Lewis would have annihilated Fury and AJ

I could see Lewis annihilating AJ in a couple of rounds, Fury a bit longer, but only going one way, he's getting beaten up.

If he was properly prepared, then Lewis would win all three of those fights.

stujones wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:54 Holyfield was a cruiserweight whose style (or adapted style) suited the heavyweight ranks.

I still see Usyk as a cruiserweight who still fighting the same way (in the main) and it’s his greatness more so than his style that makes him good at heavyweight…plus the state of the heavyweight division.

However, in Lewis he has a quick, powerful, athletic fighter.

I wouldn’t write off Usyk, but I would favour Lewis… Lewis would have annihilated Fury and AJ

I could see Fury fiddling and running to a wide 12 round loss. AJ would go the same way as Michael Grant, terrible matchup for him.

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:15

stujones wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:54 Holyfield was a cruiserweight whose style (or adapted style) suited the heavyweight ranks.

I still see Usyk as a cruiserweight who still fighting the same way (in the main) and it’s his greatness more so than his style that makes him good at heavyweight…plus the state of the heavyweight division.

However, in Lewis he has a quick, powerful, athletic fighter.

I wouldn’t write off Usyk, but I would favour Lewis… Lewis would have annihilated Fury and AJ

I could see Fury fiddling and running to a wide 12 round loss. AJ would go the same way as Michael Grant, terrible matchup for him.

Lewis would have caught up with him at some point, and when he did - only one result. Imagine a full blooded right cross from Lewis, in place of that left hook from Usyk, they'd still be trying to revive Fury as we speak.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑20 May 2024, 16:15

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑20 May 2024, 11:58 I think Lewis gets overrated. Bruno outjabbed him. Holyfield went on to have a trilogy with John Ruiz after their fights. There are people who think Holyfield won the second fight. I haven't watched it in years. It's arguable that Usyk beats everyone on his record. I certainly don't see him losing to McCall and Rahman. Fury was giving Usyk problems with his length and uppercuts and that sways things in Lewis' favour for me but only just. I think Usyk would give him problems but Lewis is far far superior to Fury and has lights out power in his right hand. He went up in my estimation in the Vitali fight. Took good shots and was well on his way to knocking him out for me.

Lewis that fought Bruno wasn't at his peak yet, still quite a few years off, I'd say Lewis' prime was around 28-32.

Bruno did outjab him, but then Lewis did what he needed to do, and took him apart.

I think Usyk is incredibly professional, and takes every fight seriously, I think Lewis thought McCall was just a patsy who would crumble, and thought Rahman was an also ran. Don't see Usyk ever coming in less than 100% prepared.

Lennox still struggled against Mercer, bang in the prime you're talking about. Good jabbers seemed to be Lennox's biggest weakness. Vitali, Mercer and Bruno all outjabbed him. Lennox never fought an elite southpaw either. But if he lands his big shots you'd think he could put Usyk away. If he doesn't I'd pick Usyk on points

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:57

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑20 May 2024, 16:15

TheLeprechaun wrote: ↑20 May 2024, 11:58 I think Lewis gets overrated. Bruno outjabbed him. Holyfield went on to have a trilogy with John Ruiz after their fights. There are people who think Holyfield won the second fight. I haven't watched it in years. It's arguable that Usyk beats everyone on his record. I certainly don't see him losing to McCall and Rahman. Fury was giving Usyk problems with his length and uppercuts and that sways things in Lewis' favour for me but only just. I think Usyk would give him problems but Lewis is far far superior to Fury and has lights out power in his right hand. He went up in my estimation in the Vitali fight. Took good shots and was well on his way to knocking him out for me.

Lewis that fought Bruno wasn't at his peak yet, still quite a few years off, I'd say Lewis' prime was around 28-32.

Bruno did outjab him, but then Lewis did what he needed to do, and took him apart.

I think Usyk is incredibly professional, and takes every fight seriously, I think Lewis thought McCall was just a patsy who would crumble, and thought Rahman was an also ran. Don't see Usyk ever coming in less than 100% prepared.

Lennox still struggled against Mercer, bang in the prime you're talking about. Good jabbers seemed to be Lennox's biggest weakness. Vitali, Mercer and Bruno all outjabbed him. Lennox never fought an elite southpaw either. But if he lands his big shots you'd think he could put Usyk away. If he doesn't I'd pick Usyk on points

Indeed, but Usyk's not a fantastic jabber, so don't think that's a massive factor - Mercer was really unfortunate to be around in the era he was, he was a hell of a fighter, gave lots of people murders.

Interesing guy who seemed to be a real bogeyman for a lot of people depsite having a patchy record was Jesse 'bigfoot' Ferguson, many came unstuck against him, and took a lot of the top boys the distance. Always been a bit intrigued by him, but never heard a lot about him outside the ring. Probably be a good subject for a book about the boxing business, strikes me he was probably one of those guys had the talent, but not the right management.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:01 I could see Lewis annihilating AJ in a couple of rounds, Fury a bit longer, but only going one way, he's getting beaten up.

The AJ fight would look similar to the Grant fight. The Fury fight would look similar to what an in shape Lewis would have done to Vitali. Both guys get stopped early. Lewis is a horrible matchup for them.

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:15

stujones wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:54 Holyfield was a cruiserweight whose style (or adapted style) suited the heavyweight ranks.

I still see Usyk as a cruiserweight who still fighting the same way (in the main) and it’s his greatness more so than his style that makes him good at heavyweight…plus the state of the heavyweight division.

However, in Lewis he has a quick, powerful, athletic fighter.

I wouldn’t write off Usyk, but I would favour Lewis… Lewis would have annihilated Fury and AJ

I could see Fury fiddling and running to a wide 12 round loss. AJ would go the same way as Michael Grant, terrible matchup for him.

Wilder might have a greater ko percentage but no way does he hit harder than Lewis. No way could fury hold his shot

stujones wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 10:52

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:15

stujones wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 07:54 Holyfield was a cruiserweight whose style (or adapted style) suited the heavyweight ranks.

I still see Usyk as a cruiserweight who still fighting the same way (in the main) and it’s his greatness more so than his style that makes him good at heavyweight…plus the state of the heavyweight division.

However, in Lewis he has a quick, powerful, athletic fighter.

I wouldn’t write off Usyk, but I would favour Lewis… Lewis would have annihilated Fury and AJ

I could see Fury fiddling and running to a wide 12 round loss. AJ would go the same way as Michael Grant, terrible matchup for him.

Wilder might have a greater ko percentage but no way does he hit harder than Lewis. No way could fury hold his shot

No arguments on Lewis's power here, but even so it's not like he ko'd everyone he faced and was more than happy enough to go the distance where needed. I just wouldn't be surprised if Fury turned it into a stinker like the Wlad fight, constantly running away and flicking out occasional jabs, doing enough to stay out of trouble. Main difference is Lewis wouldn't be hesitant to throw like Wlad was, so would easily win a wide decision.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 09:03

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:57

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑20 May 2024, 16:15

Lewis that fought Bruno wasn't at his peak yet, still quite a few years off, I'd say Lewis' prime was around 28-32.

Bruno did outjab him, but then Lewis did what he needed to do, and took him apart.

I think Usyk is incredibly professional, and takes every fight seriously, I think Lewis thought McCall was just a patsy who would crumble, and thought Rahman was an also ran. Don't see Usyk ever coming in less than 100% prepared.

Lennox still struggled against Mercer, bang in the prime you're talking about. Good jabbers seemed to be Lennox's biggest weakness. Vitali, Mercer and Bruno all outjabbed him. Lennox never fought an elite southpaw either. But if he lands his big shots you'd think he could put Usyk away. If he doesn't I'd pick Usyk on points

Indeed, but Usyk's not a fantastic jabber, so don't think that's a massive factor - Mercer was really unfortunate to be around in the era he was, he was a hell of a fighter, gave lots of people murders.

Interesing guy who seemed to be a real bogeyman for a lot of people depsite having a patchy record was Jesse 'bigfoot' Ferguson, many came unstuck against him, and took a lot of the top boys the distance. Always been a bit intrigued by him, but never heard a lot about him outside the ring. Probably be a good subject for a book about the boxing business, strikes me he was probably one of those guys had the talent, but not the right management.

I thought “Bigfoot” was Everett Martin, James. Or did they share a moniker?

si7dog7 wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:32

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 09:03

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:57

Lennox still struggled against Mercer, bang in the prime you're talking about. Good jabbers seemed to be Lennox's biggest weakness. Vitali, Mercer and Bruno all outjabbed him. Lennox never fought an elite southpaw either. But if he lands his big shots you'd think he could put Usyk away. If he doesn't I'd pick Usyk on points

Indeed, but Usyk's not a fantastic jabber, so don't think that's a massive factor - Mercer was really unfortunate to be around in the era he was, he was a hell of a fighter, gave lots of people murders.

Interesing guy who seemed to be a real bogeyman for a lot of people depsite having a patchy record was Jesse 'bigfoot' Ferguson, many came unstuck against him, and took a lot of the top boys the distance. Always been a bit intrigued by him, but never heard a lot about him outside the ring. Probably be a good subject for a book about the boxing business, strikes me he was probably one of those guys had the talent, but not the right management.

I thought “Bigfoot” was Everett Martin, James. Or did they share a moniker?

I might be getting confused.


I checked - I am, and not for the first time!

si7dog7 wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:32

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 09:03

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 08:57

Lennox still struggled against Mercer, bang in the prime you're talking about. Good jabbers seemed to be Lennox's biggest weakness. Vitali, Mercer and Bruno all outjabbed him. Lennox never fought an elite southpaw either. But if he lands his big shots you'd think he could put Usyk away. If he doesn't I'd pick Usyk on points

Indeed, but Usyk's not a fantastic jabber, so don't think that's a massive factor - Mercer was really unfortunate to be around in the era he was, he was a hell of a fighter, gave lots of people murders.

Interesing guy who seemed to be a real bogeyman for a lot of people depsite having a patchy record was Jesse 'bigfoot' Ferguson, many came unstuck against him, and took a lot of the top boys the distance. Always been a bit intrigued by him, but never heard a lot about him outside the ring. Probably be a good subject for a book about the boxing business, strikes me he was probably one of those guys had the talent, but not the right management.

I thought “Bigfoot” was Everett Martin, James. Or did they share a moniker?

'The Boogieman', according to Boxrec. James is getting his mythical creatures confused

Boxerbeetle wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:38

si7dog7 wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:32

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 09:03

Indeed, but Usyk's not a fantastic jabber, so don't think that's a massive factor - Mercer was really unfortunate to be around in the era he was, he was a hell of a fighter, gave lots of people murders.

Interesing guy who seemed to be a real bogeyman for a lot of people depsite having a patchy record was Jesse 'bigfoot' Ferguson, many came unstuck against him, and took a lot of the top boys the distance. Always been a bit intrigued by him, but never heard a lot about him outside the ring. Probably be a good subject for a book about the boxing business, strikes me he was probably one of those guys had the talent, but not the right management.

I thought “Bigfoot” was Everett Martin, James. Or did they share a moniker?

'The Boogieman', according to Boxrec. James is getting his mythical creatures confused

I am indeed!

historically, ive got lewis at 9th, usyk around 15th.

mike john wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:57 historically, ive got lewis at 9th, usyk around 15th.

That's quite surprising, who have you got above Lewis?

I certainly can't think of more than 3-4 heavyweight champs I could rate higher.
Ali, Louis, Holmes Foreman, (mainly because of what foreman managed to achieve 2nd time around on top of his first run) after that, most champions were short lived, or really were from such a different era, that they belonged in a different weight class.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:05

mike john wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:57 historically, ive got lewis at 9th, usyk around 15th.

That's quite surprising, who have you got above Lewis?

I certainly can't think of more than 3-4 heavyweight champs I could rate higher.
Ali, Louis, Holmes Foreman, (mainly because of what foreman managed to achieve 2nd time around on top of his first run) after that, most champions were short lived, or really were from such a different era, that they belonged in a different weight class.

1.ali
2.louis
3.holmes
4.foreman
5.marciano
6.frazier
7.dempsey
8.johnson
9.lewis
10.holyfield

i could see ranks 7-9 as somewhat interchangable, especially jack johnson, who ill gladly admit to being far from an expert on.

mike john wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:30

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:05

mike john wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 11:57 historically, ive got lewis at 9th, usyk around 15th.

That's quite surprising, who have you got above Lewis?

I certainly can't think of more than 3-4 heavyweight champs I could rate higher.
Ali, Louis, Holmes Foreman, (mainly because of what foreman managed to achieve 2nd time around on top of his first run) after that, most champions were short lived, or really were from such a different era, that they belonged in a different weight class.

1.ali
2.louis
3.holmes
4.foreman
5.marciano
6.frazier
7.dempsey
8.johnson
9.lewis
10.holyfield

i could see ranks 7-9 as somewhat interchangable, especially jack johnson, who ill gladly admit to being far from an expert on.

Dempsey is undoubtedly one of the biggest Superstars the sport has ever produced, but because of his refusal to take on Black Challengers I think his rating as one of the All time Great Champions is severely diminished. Jack Johnson similarly once becoming Champion never again revisited the likes of Sam Langford, and Joe Jeanette.

Your Top 3 is right on the money.

If Usyk retired tomorrow I'd have him as a Top 10 Heavyweight. His achievements are equal to Holyfield's, and if he never loses history will see him as better than Holyfield.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:35

mike john wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:30

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 12:05

That's quite surprising, who have you got above Lewis?

I certainly can't think of more than 3-4 heavyweight champs I could rate higher.
Ali, Louis, Holmes Foreman, (mainly because of what foreman managed to achieve 2nd time around on top of his first run) after that, most champions were short lived, or really were from such a different era, that they belonged in a different weight class.

1.ali
2.louis
3.holmes
4.foreman
5.marciano
6.frazier
7.dempsey
8.johnson
9.lewis
10.holyfield

i could see ranks 7-9 as somewhat interchangable, especially jack johnson, who ill gladly admit to being far from an expert on.

Dempsey is undoubtedly one of the biggest Superstars the sport has ever produced, but because of his refusal to take on Black Challengers I think his rating as one of the All time Great Champions is severely diminished. Jack Johnson similarly once becoming Champion never again revisited the likes of Sam Langford, and Joe Jeanette.

Your Top 3 is right on the money.

If Usyk retired tomorrow I'd have him as a Top 10 Heavyweight. His achievements are equal to Holyfield's, and if he never loses history will see him as better than Holyfield.

These sort of analyses and thoughts are challenged by the criteria with which they are made. Without question Lewis would have beaten all the fighters as they were at their prime rather than Ali and possibly Holmes.

Would a modern Jesse Owens have run as fast as Usain Bolt? Would Pele be the best player, Bradman the greatest cricketer of all time?

I think that because boxing is a 1 on 1 sport people analyse whether X could beat Y but of course due to sports science they are completely different athletes (incidentally there is no PED allegation about what I'm saying).

Loynesy wrote: ↑21 May 2024, 13:59 I think that because boxing is a 1 on 1 sport people analyse whether X could beat Y but of course due to sports science they are completely different athletes (incidentally there is no PED allegation about what I'm saying).

Not sure, sports science plays as bigger role as is sometimes assumed. Does anyone think a peak WW 'Hurricane' Hank or Ray Robinson would lose to Mayweather Jnr? or Monzon to Canelo @ MW? Lomo - Duran @LW?

I think, moreso, in the case of boxing. historically anyways, its all about natural ability and 'styles making fights'. Norton (counter punchers) had the style to trouble Ali consistently for example. An exceptional slugger like Joe could but had to be on fire, to do so.

Not trying to diminish Uysk or his achievements by any stretch. He is a brilliant fighter but trying to walk down someone like Lennox would cause him all sorts of problems. He'd struggle badly against Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Liston, Louis, Frazier, Foreman, to name a few.

Greatest HW of this era, a given but for me, that does not equate to being 'up there' with some of the past, great champions.

All perspective, of course, however.

N - all valid points - heavyweights are heavyweights so we can contextualise them in that context.

I just wonder (and I've no answer to the question I'm about to ask) how the greats of all time would have been now. There were much fewer divisions so the differences between weights were more pronounced so would they have stepped up or down the weights of the lbs differential was smaller?

I rewatched Hagler - Hearns a couple of weeks ago (great mate of mines 50th and we all live in different places on different continents so he suggest a virtual birthday party where we watched that and a couple of other fights on Utube)

I cannot believe that any Middleweight in the history of boxing would have beaten him that night.

I can't help thinking we mythologise many of the historic fighters, each era seems to be looked upon favourable in time. Just my thoughts. Lewis used to get dog's abuse as a chinny Canadian now he's pride of Britain.

I do think Usyk v Lewis would be a brilliant fight.

Željko Mavrović V Usyk would have been a good match up. Without a really big weapon Usyk would have worn down fairly quickly at heavyweight if he had had to face the same roster of fighters as Lewis. He might be too good for today’s heavyweights (just), but in the 1990’s likely would have caught some beatings.